Author Topic: Mindfulness and codependence thread  (Read 5304 times)

sKePTiKal

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #255 on: June 25, 2020, 07:26:33 PM »
I am more than OK, Hops. Both Hol & I are no strangers to our own anger. It wasn't directed at me at all. But it was all he was experiencing in the moment. Just like Hol, when she goes there. And the rare times I go off.

I understand where y'all are leaping to - and what's behind that. I survived that kind of thing in the past too. But it's the wrong meaning in this context. I would be the first of the bunch of us, to freak out if it was the other. And my radar for that kind of thing is NEVER wrong. Even in a crowd of strangers. Even if the dangerous person is a woman. And they DO exist.

But enough of this derailment! No worries.
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Garbanzo

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #256 on: June 26, 2020, 01:49:57 AM »
Darker emotions, they fascinate, we all have them right. We think maybe if we don't feed them they won't grow, if we ignore them or suppress them maybe they will go away, still they tell us something, it's just too bad they are so fear inducing and destructive. True feelings are destructive, isn't this weird, that so many relationships are topical and even careful and based on etiquette. Not that there is anything wrong with having manners, culture and expectations and people doing their part makes sense until it simply doesn't make sense for someone.

I've got no point. I just wanted to chime in somewhere even though I'm diving in like a sparrow to a random spot and then taking off again. This board is always in the back of my mind a little bit, then again at some point I think I got fed up and left for a while though I don't recall why.

I think I've always been threatened by men a bit regardless if they are angry but even more so if they are angry. On the other hand it's important for people to just be allowed to be angry right? As long as it's not the kind of anger that goes overboard. I guess it's all a matter of how it's directed and how it's worked out. Then again being angry is sort of an aggressive choice in how to deal with something, but is it a choice, doesn't it just live on it's own in it's emotional hinterland either outed or suppressed. 

sKePTiKal

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #257 on: June 26, 2020, 08:02:45 AM »
Ah... G. You do seem like one of my "little birds". I have goldfinches - saw a red one last week too; bluebirds - more correctly - indigo buntings. I enjoy them so much when they come to visit.

I guess in my way of thinking, all the emotions are like the suits & cards in a deck. They are ALL important and useful, at different times. And therefore, again to my way of thinking, there are no "bad" emotions. Expressing them in ways that are healthy is the key, I guess. I am the poster girl for NOT expressing my emotions. And I can vouch for how dysfunctional and unhealthy THAT is.

Might be worth exploring while we're still waiting out the virus... are the concepts & archetypes of the divine masculine and feminine. It's relevant to people's "inner worlds" more so than the expressions in the outer world, I think. We all have elements of both.
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Twoapenny

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #258 on: June 27, 2020, 09:40:16 AM »
Lighter, I've sat with your post for a few days as it was so layered and so much of it really resonated and struck a chord with me.  I'm often struck by how similar our paths and experiences are.

Do you think that inability to rest and be okay with resting comes from running away from trauma, of some kind?  Not being good enough or going through something painful?  Keep busy, keep proving you can do x, y and z, keep striving to be better and eventually you'll feel better?  Do you think that's where it stems from for you, or is it something else?  It's what kept coming up for me as I read and thought about what you'd written (I think you have written a self help book by now, by the way, you could print off a lot of your posts and bind them together and it would be a really good self help bible.  Lol).

It's a silly comparison to make, but I was watching Nigella on the TV (cookery lady, do you get her over there?).  And she often talks about cooking tips and recipes that were passed down from her mother, grandmother and aunts, and about her own memories of helping her mum cook.  It got me thinking about my mum, and that I can't remember her ever teaching or showing me anything, or explaining anything to me.  Never taking any sort of initiative or interest.  Only criticising.  The attention only came when I did it wrong.  And I think that's the nub of my not being able to rest.  It is tied up with self worth, you're very perceptive to pick up on that.  I don't want it to be and I try not to let it be that but anything less than absolutely perfect and beyond reproach is never good enough.  Which I know is silly; even when I did do things well she still found something to pick at.  And it's soooooo long ago now, but those nubs settle in so deeply.  So what you said about being able to rest and just being able to do it - not needing to justify it or make up for it later on.  That's a skill I want to try to cultivate.  I am resting physically but it's not happening in my mind yet.  But as you say you took the physical rest first and the mental rest followed.  So I will keep resting.  I've noticed how tired I've been since son had his college picnic.  I felt very stressed by having to get up there and it's interacting with people that I find stressful - what they might do and what they might say.  It was a hot day as well and I was conscious of having to just hang around for a couple of hours in all that heat.  Plus got chatted up by a man in his 70s and it bothered me - that need by some to put their own needs  first without any thought for the needs of the other person (I was sitting eating my sandwich - in no way giving off signals of any kind that I wanted a man to ask me if I was married or not and start talking about taking me out for a drink).  It bothers me that I give energy to dealing with that politely instead of just telling someone to f off.  I don't want to be hostile to people.  But sometimes I wonder if it's what you need to do.  I've gone off on a tangent now.  Lol, I just mention it because it was to do with feeling tired and needing to rest, I think xx

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #259 on: June 27, 2020, 01:52:36 PM »
Lighter, I've sat with your post for a few days as it was so layered and so much of it really resonated and struck a chord with me.  I'm often struck by how similar our paths and experiences are.  Me too.  ::noticing the shame threatening::.  I know your childhood was harder than mine.  I think I always have some wave of shame wash over me when I see similarities in paths... as far as the legal go, then remember how different childhoods were.  A negative voice always rises up and tries to shame me, when really..... it's not helpful.

No one had a perfect childhood.  I can have my stuff, and it doesn't mean I'm comparing at all.  I never do.   But that voice.... I'm noticing it, and seeing what's underneath it.  What other people think, I guess.  My anger... my protectiveness rises up, too.  Like I COULD protect you, ever.  Silly.  I can't, but there's reactivity there..... bc you should have been protected, of course.  And this comes down to acceptance.... still struggling with that, and noticing it.   

T said to look for that... when things come up, feel wrong... to see if I'm fighting acceptance.  I DO, still.  I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it.  Internalize it.  Make friends with it.     


Do you think that inability to rest and be okay with resting comes from running away from trauma, of some kind?  Not being good enough or going through something painful?  Keep busy, keep proving you can do x, y and z, keep striving to be better and eventually you'll feel better?  Do you think that's where it stems from for you, or is it something else?  It's what kept coming up for me as I read and thought about what you'd written (I think you have written a self help book by now, by the way, you could print off a lot of your posts and bind them together and it would be a really good self help bible.  Lol).  I think there IS underneath all the seeking/avoiding... deep things we uncover and discover with patient awareness.  With ongoing curiosity.  With getting past what we do to avoid feeling and seeing.... very similar to crying like a small child... just letting it all goooo.  We take deep breaths, hold our breath, we resist and fight it without being aware.  The same with  going deep, underneath the stuff we can see now, to see what's underneath it.  And we all have stuff.  We all have to figure out how to use the new tools and apply them, over and over, till things get easier. 

What little child wants to KNOW their parents are bad parents,  much less toxic and dangerous?  That's something that's hidden away and locked up tight, so the child can survive.  It has to be unlocked, but the unlocking doesn't have to be difficult if we relax into it and give permission and parent ourselves through it, IME. 

For all those pieces to come together...
awareness,
 remembering the tools,
remembering the mission and breathing throughout the process,
creating space for something wer'e trusting in, but unable to anticipate, bc it's new....
continuing to create space, which means we silence the negative voices, and go back to resting, avoiding judgment... i t's like riding waves.... easier on the downside.  Harder on the upside,but it's the same wave, and maybe we create the hard and easy in our minds.   Maybe, once we have the tools in hand, and the space... it just works without effort. 

Maybe letting it happen, rather than doing it... is the secret.  Simpler than anything we've ever done,  but everything's been hard, or we interpret it as hard, bc...... running tapes in the background,  seeking and avoidance behaviors to keep from seeing the tapes. 


It's a silly comparison to make, but I was watching Nigella on the TV (cookery lady, do you get her over there?).  And she often talks about cooking tips and recipes that were passed down from her mother, grandmother and aunts, and about her own memories of helping her mum cook.  It got me thinking about my mum, and that I can't remember her ever teaching or showing me anything, or explaining anything to me.  Never taking any sort of initiative or interest.  Only criticising.  The attention only came when I did it wrong.  I don't find that silly in any way, Tupp.  It makes me very sad, and I want to hug young Tupp so badly.
 To SEE and experience that closeness, through Nigella's stories and shared experience... that makes so much sense to me.  Of course your experience is conjured when you listen and watch sometihng altogether opposite your own experience.  I think that's information you're ready to see and process.  I wonder how much of it is about final acceptance...  your mother was broken and flawed and doing her best, however wretched and toxic, her best based on the causes and conditions she was raised with. Whatever went wrong... it wasn't anything you could control.  You didn't create those conditions.  You suffered bc of them, and  nothing about it was rigth or good.  You were a beautiful, worthy infant who deserved a good enough mother you didn't receive.  Nothing can change that.  Accepting that.... is perhaps part of releasing the haunting, the avoidance the seeking behaviors behind it?  It's real and it's inside your bone and skin and brain..... and you deserve to finish it... make peace with it.... accept and file it in historic files.  Lord knows... what hope of doing that did you have during the last 15 years?  With her constant attacks, that were very real.  There's no swiping that under the rug, Tupp.  No healing in the midst of threat and battle, IME. 

I see the need for deep forgiveness, for us both, bc maybe we feel we SHOULD have overcome it... gotten past it....  healed through it, but honestly..... I don't think there's a soul on this earth, outside an experienced monk, who could have.  People say things.... they have SHOULDS and they don't understand how that's just complicating the process, IME. 

DOING more isn't the problem.   It's releiving the pressure that's built, so the brain can rest, and shift and process and finish everything held up by trauma, and stacked for future processing. THIS is the time for processing, and the creating this backlog will have to change for the process to continue.  This is tied to childhood, and not so easy to tease apart... so many things, on different levels, but SEEING that can't happen until we stop judging and shift reliably into observer mode... and continue resting... even when habit pulls us out of rest.... shift back, again and again and notice what comes up.  What stops us.  Why.  And continue.  It's trusting we'll be OK if we release all the habits that got us through, isn't it?  Our brain pathways don't want to change... they believe their keeping us alive...  there's resistance there as well. Another layer,  but it's interesting now.  Not threatening.  Not daunting. Just interesting to see what's there... what comes up.  WHere it takes us.  Trusting we can handle it now.... trust helps us stay out of our limbic systems.... brains integrated, and on line.... capable and ready to do the processing. 

    cultivate.  I am resting physically but it's not happening in my mind yet. There's all the judgment and guilt to notice and quiet down, IME.  The  bartering I used to do..... so unconscious... promising I'll do A and B and C IF I allow myself to rest for a while... not long.... and that's the thing.  Resting beyond anywhere we've ever gone before... takes focus.  And that can feel like work too.  Focus on rest.  On noticing what comes up, dealing with it and continuing.   

But as you say you took the physical rest first and the mental rest followed.  The mental focus on rest was like a merry go round.... resistance  kept coming up, and my permission to feel it, notice it and continue past it kept coming up, over and over. So I will keep resting.

 Rest and notice what comes up.  The voices.
 Judgements.  Bargains.  Then pat it on the head, let it know it's no longer necessary, you can rest safely now, and keep resting more deeply your mind, your guard, your expectations for what you must do.  Let all the shoulds go.... and stay curious... aware.


 I've noticed how tired I've been since son had his college picnic.  I felt very stressed by having to get up there and it's interacting with people that I find stressful - what they might do and what they might say.

I felt very much like that.  Then I just went to that bbq and enjoyed myself immensely.  Beyond my ability to comprehend,  in fact.  I dont' know it if was trusting or time having passed or what, but it got better.  Your situation included people you'[ve had conflict with, and things that perhaps could have upset your son.  Maybe you needed to be as protective as you felt, OR... maybe it's OK to trust and  shift into observer mode... get very curious and see what's really there.  Honestly, the guy interrupting your quiet lunch...  that's reason for protection and anxiety,  IME.   I used to be knocked sideways by it too... and I think there are types of people drawn to quiet people who aren't smiling and engaged in the world... which was always me in public.  I live in my head.  That attracts some people, and that's OK.  We can say.... I'd like to chat, but I'm having lunch now.   Have a nice day. Bye.  Can't we?  Without feeling responsible for the person's feelings?  Right?  I think we can, but we have to figure out WHY we feel responsible for others, when all.   we have to feel responsible for is OURSELVES.  Figuring out what's ours and what belongs to others, and internalizing it, is part of things getting easier, I'm sure.  It was a hot day as well and I was conscious of having to just hang around for a couple of hours in all that heat.  Plus got chatted up by a man in his 70s and it bothered me - that need by some to put their own needs  first without any thought for the needs of the other person (I was sitting eating my sandwich - in no way giving off signals of any kind that I wanted a man to ask me if I was married or not and start talking about taking me out for a drink).  It bothers me that I give energy to dealing with that politely instead of just telling someone to f off.  There's sometihng in between, Tupp. Firm assertion....  I know there is.    I don't want to be hostile to people.  But sometimes I wonder if it's what you need to do.  I've gone off on a tangent now.  Lol, I just mention it because it was to do with feeling tired and needing to rest, I think xx

I think rest is a really good place to notice what's going on, Tupp.  And... my tangents are waaaay longer than yours; )  Lighter

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #260 on: July 01, 2020, 02:58:52 AM »
My tooth feels about normal.  No pain for 3 days.  What an odd experience.   One second you're sure you snapped a tooth off at the root, and the next you're googling tooth pain and reading about teeth having ligaments that get sprained and bruised... just very odd.

And painful.

And my lower molar, on the opposite side from the sprain, is a little sore now from chewing in a compromised position..... I automatically chew oddly, and compensate to keep sprained tooth from clacking the tooth below.  That never goes well, IME. Something's always thrown out of whack when compensation happens.

I'm ready to start chewing normally. 

Baby girl pug is limping intermittently... her right front paw/leg.... something was bugging her, then not, then bugging her, then not.  I suspect it COULD be her training us to give her almond butter on demand.   I can't be sure.  We drop her at the Vet in the morning, and hope she shows them what we're talking about, bc she wasn't limping when she went to bed and I didn't get any video, though I tried. I'm focused on giving oldest dd space to be the pug parent.  Not me.  I'm... just the Grandma.  Who made the vet appointment for the morning.  After threatening to "take my Karen business elsewhere" when the appointment maker said it would be days before they could see the pug, and I had a bit of a meltdown..... not HUGE, but manic and I justified it, in my mind, bc my first job was making appointments in a doctors office... for people.   We left problem visit appointments open daily for regular patients.  There should be time left in their schedule for problems like this, and I'm noticing I'm not upset..... I burned it all off earlier in the day.  And got my way.  There's only slight shame there.  The pug was limping badly when I made that call, btw.  She makes little kitten noises when she's in pain. You'd have made the call too... I think.  Just pitiful.  She's not limping now.  Maybe she'll be limping in the morning, but I HAVE to turn over the pug's care to dd.  It's an imperative.  Good for us both, and the Pug will get through it.

The first real rental of the Cottage happens on the 3rd.  I'm refusing to what if myself into anxiety over the things I can't control, but can see being a problem.  This couple is young and fit... like bull.   

I'm going to hope things go well, and KNOW the beach looks great... I hear the sand is back.  They can swim, so less chance of drowning if the turn the kayaks over.... I didn't get a chance to bring flotation devices.  They'll likely blow fuses in the kitchen, but they can figure that out..... if I can, they can.  At least I didn't lock the box in the basement where they can't reach it, which is what the last airbnb did to me, out of the country.   The second electric panel is outside, up high, where they'll need a ladder to reach it.  What could go wrong?  He owns his own car repair business.  He'll drag a chair out and overcome. 

What else?  Oh. We have travel coming up, a birthday for one of my daughters, I see a fancy tea party coming up, and the stone for my father's grave.... errrrr.... general area of his ashes.... arrived.  It looks good.  I had this irrational fear it would show up with misspelled words and the wrong dates.  It's fine. 

The cemetery people don't work past 3pm, but we can show up and request they deal with it... they need about a day in advance notice.  They also need 120.00 to place it, I assume there's cement involved so it doesn't sink into the earth or catch the mower blade.  I'll admit it here, bc I was worrying about it for a while, while my sibs AREN'T worrying.....
we buried Dad's ashes with my Grandparents.  Did I tell you guys that?  And we did it without asking the cemetery folks for permission.... and we chose the head of the grave, not the foot of the grave, which I don't understand.  The cemetery buries ashes as the foot of the grave, not sure why, bc it's counterintuitive TO ME.  Not right.  Honoring Dad's wishes seemed important at the time. 

So, I have choices. I can tell the cemetery on US, dig up the urn, and have them bury him proper, at the foot of the grave, for another 120.00.  I don't care about the money, it's more the telling on ourselves.... the sneaking was somewhat cathartic for about half the group.  One of my cousins brought a Hosta... I'm sure I told you guys. 

We could leave Dad where he is, hand the cemetery a box with some dirt and treasure map to the real urn and have the box buried instead of the ashes.  Com pli cated. 

  Hmmm.... maybe they'll plant the stone, even if they don't have ashes to bury?  I'll see.  It's odd to speak to people who sound like your long lost Grandparents, IME.  Like falling into a dream... feeling drowsy...  anything can happen.  Maybe the Grandparents will show up, and we'll have a picnic on the farm, under the big oak trees that let me know we arrived when i was a child. 

I look forward to being in that cemetery.  It's comforting.  My Grandparents lived in a little white house just at the edge of it, for years.  I enjoyed spending time with my Grandmother there... and my sister and cousins remember it fondly too. 

Again, I'm bringing Dad's little cowboy boots and fancy Western gun holster for a little graveside ceremony and lunch.  Think green and red and ivory and big flashy sparkly stones.  Very fancy. I plan to put vases of flowers in his boots.... white flowers, and something fitting into the holsters.  Not sure what yet. Maybe flatware in napkins.  My Grandpa was sort of a cowboy.... had quarter horses, and rode them in parades... Dad rode... had cowboy hats and cowboy clothes, as did the grandkids, us.  Little black and white cow spotted chaps, and matching hats... very cute.  Time on their farm was amazing for us. 

I was shocked when Dad said he wanted to be buried with his parents, particularly bc there wasn;t any room for him there. 

I want to honor the farm, and my Dad and Grandparents.   The horses.  The cows maybe.  The 50's era, Roy Rogers time it was.  The Grandparents were square dancers.  Yup yup yup.  I ended up putting a Roy Rogers quote on Dad's stone, btw.  It didn't seem right not to.  I would have quoted Audie Murphie, but all his quotes were too long. 

I must sleep now.

:: shutting computer with all it's decorating ideas for horseshoe cupcakes and cowboy boot flower vases:: 


There's a lot.

If we don't all end up in photos wearing cheap little cowboy hats, kerchiefs and creatively placed cowboy mustaches.... I'll be surprised.  Our very best family reunion was a pirate party.  Mustaches are amazingly fun props.  I highly recommend.  They make great goatees and eyebrows too.   

Did I mention we aren't traditional about funerals and memorial services?  Turns out... we aren't. At least my sister and I aren't.  I think my brother might have been.... maybe?  Not sure.  Going to sleep now.  Again.

Lighter

Twoapenny

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #261 on: July 01, 2020, 06:22:58 AM »
Aw, Lighter, I love the sound of a cowboy themed picnic with all the family there, past and present!  I think celebrations of life are so lovely.  I hate funerals, absolutely hate them, but I love wakes.  At the funeral you can only focus on what you lost.  It's around you, everywhere you look, every breath you take in.  But wakes - do you call them wakes there?  When you all get together after the service?  That's when everyone tells the funny stories and the 'do you remember' and all those old tales, often embellished and with any unpleasantness ironed out, but that's alright on the day.  I think it sounds lovely to be together at their grave side like that.

I've no advice about the ashes - personal to you, I think.  Here they will lay a stone without burying anything so maybe you don't need to do anything anyway.  But you will all figure it out between you.

Poor pug!  Intermittent problems are hard, they never seem to show what the problem is at the vet but hopefully the vet will be able to feel or see what's wrong even if it seems fine at the time.  Sometimes you do need to be assertive.  We always have emergency appointments put by here - everywhere does, as far as I know.  Maybe they were just having a bit of a bad day or had some bigger appointments scheduled in for more complex things.  But you've got in, that's that main thing, so hopefully they can help.

And your poor tooth!  Any idea how it got sprained?  I'd never heard of that either.  But glad it's getting better now.

And then going back to the post before that one :)  I think the shame needs to go, Lighter, and leave you quiet.  I remember reading about abuse and shame, something about how often we trivialise our own experiences - so and so had it worse, at least I had x, I didn't end up in hospital, etc, etc.  It's all trauma and we all have it.  No-one's is less or more, we each have our own experience to deal with.  I had my dad, albeit for a short time.  I got my freedom early on by leaving home at a relatively young age and I went to University and my goodness, what a ride that was.  There was lots of good stuff.  So yep, bye bye shame!  Lighter doesn't need you around :)

I think you're right about making peace with it.  My mum did what she could, and in some ways she was great - meals on the table, house was clean, we had clothes, we got presents on birthday and Christmas.  I knew kids that didn't get those things.  I think, essentially, she's controlled by an abusive man and she manages how that feels by (trying to) control her kids and the way people see her.  She relinquished control of her own life so she compensates by trying to micromanage other people's.  That's how I see it anyway.  She still causes my sister a lot of problems but my sister doesn't have to keep in contact with her, she can cut off like I did.  So I don't let my head go there about that situation.  It just makes me relieved I got out when I did.

And yes, firm assertion.  I think it's part of my anti-man head I've got on at the moment.  I've struggled to look back and think of a bloke who has done anything other than exactly what he likes.  I've got one or two examples in my mind but that's about all.  That's troubling me a lot and I don't know why.  But we're not going out anyway so I won't have to deal with it for a good long while.  Lol.

Thanks, Lighter.  I'm glad you've got the picnic organised and are able to let go of what happens at the beach house now. xx

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #262 on: July 01, 2020, 04:16:00 PM »
Lots of processing today with T.

We worked on, guess what?

The brain surgery situation, and that lead to all the stuff underneath it and on top of it and it's a whole big deal we've scheduled to work on next we meet.

There was some EMDR.... which was really hard on my little phone, and this time she had be breath into every cell in my body.... with light.  More space than matter in our cells..... the lights getting brighter with each finger wave..... and that happened twice.  The pain, around my heart, went from 7 down to 3 down to zero, and we have a large session around it coming up soon. 

I like taking notes right after, so that's one good thing about meeting over the internet.  I had hoped we could meet in her garden,  or garden, but face to face.

Tupp... thanks for the info about planting a stone with nothing underneath.  I'm going with that as PLAN A.  Don't ask, don't gets, so I'll ask.  Seems simple now. 

Pug might have a neck problem, which can show up as problems with mobility in the front legs.  Pug had no symptoms AND her neck has so much chub on it,  Vet couldn't tell.  She, the Vet, said to go in when symptoms appeared again, so that was just before T session, but went anyway.  And.... no symptoms when we GOT OUT of the car, so, raced to make appt and will try again.

MAYBE the Pug was looking almond butter and got a car ride instead?  If so, the car ride, which she hates, should train her OUT of that behavior, IMO.  Hopefully.
'
About the tooth ligament... it's easy to google.  Look it up.  It'll be there, alright. I cut the rind off my ham now.  That's what I bit down on that torqued the tooth..... it wasn't good. 

Neighbor is coming by to show me chiropractic moves for Pug's neck, in case it's the neck.  His dog suffered with problems for years, so he told me what to buy to support joints and cartldg, etc.

 ::sigh::.

Very tired now.  This Pug pain has created some faintness and feelings of being unwell.  If she started screaming I'd have to put my head between my knees to keep going,  but I'd keep going. 

Lighter



Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #263 on: July 01, 2020, 05:23:47 PM »
Lighter,
I really sympathize with your struggle over the right answer to burial options. I hope you happen onto something that feels right and sufficient to you.

I am not much help because I'm completely unhooked from ritual, symbolic or sentimental things about families. Makes sense, since I have none. But I think a long time ago I began to see biology as accidental, and endless involuntary biofamily obligation (under pressure to make it LOOK "right" or "good") as poison.

I know all that came from 10 years serving Nmom, and ruthless attack by SocioNbro, and current state (likely permanent) of estrangement with D.

Biofamily illusions and symbolism just blew up into a million tiny particles that I let go into the universe. It can handle them in case it matters; I have let them go. It healed something.

BUT. My Dad's the exception. His grave (mausoleum ashes spot) is 10 minutes away and I never, ever visit it (nor feel guilty about that). Nor Nmom's with him. Why? He's still here--in his old shirt I sometimes wear, in my prayer-chats with him now and then. My memory of his gentle soul. Those are all very present and to be honest, I just don't care what the future thinks of me and my duty. I haven't lost him. Even enjoy a few positive moments with Nmom in my head now and then...her librarian side, some early stuff.

When I'm gone, I'm gone. And I don't want anyone, ever, to feel they need to haul their aging or busy bones somewhere to "prove" (to whom? I'm FIIIIINE) that they loved me. If they did, they did. I'm confident I'll be remembered for a while by enough folks. Even if I weren't, my life had meaning anyway. I don't need anything public or permanent.

I did buy three spaces (plaques on a pretty brick wall, and the option to have ashes interred or sprinkled in the grassy center) at the church Memorial Garden. One was for my first hub, D's father (not his ashes, but the memorial plaque) -- we'd had a small memorial service there -- just D, me, her stepMom, and the minister. Another is for me. The third is for D should she ever wish to be there with both parents. (She probably won't but I wanted to leave that option for her.)

Actually took M by there the other day, he was curious. Showed him the names of old friends, plus first hub. He liked it. It's very simple but peaceful. Nice place to sit and think. He seemed attracted to the place. We couldn't get in to show him the sanctuary (shut for covid) but he enjoyed the visit.

Anyway, I am sad to think of how much anguish all that decision-making has cost you.

You don't deserve it. He is fine. You owe nobody anything about your grief. It belongs to you.

love
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #264 on: July 03, 2020, 01:56:05 PM »
I have some closure on the burial/grave marker questions and final choices.

I'm struggling over the other stuff... my father's caretaker.... Dad's choices....  her choices.... my choices, and who was responsible for what.   

Caretaker returning from out of the Country today, so working with my T is truly timely.  I wish I'd done it sooner, but alas, this is how it was supposed to be. 

I've worked through an aspect of the puzzle regarding more modern, satellite issues...  but not the 20 year old stuff.

I don't know how to determine ownership of self-care and caring for others....
when it's overstepping, to do so.  And that's the thing.... NEEEDING someone else to be OK, to feel OK myself, is codependence.  But where it ties into my life, my hours, my relationships.....trying to save someone else can be tied into saving myself too,  IME.  In my opinion. 

I'm discerning the edges of that puzzle.   Maybe it will just process, and get filed where I don't need to access and figure it out. 

I'm curious how it resolves.  I'm sure it will be resolved.   

In the meantime, my Cousin's HS aged dd is seeking to extend a TRO against an ex bf who's been stalking her, assaulting her, threatening her.   DD is on the spectrum and can't discern the difference between an empty or deadly threat... shooting her in the head when he has access to many guns and ability to use them. 

I was reminded... no one can, honestly, tell the difference. There are indicators, but... we're pretty much on our own.  You don't know till something happens or doesn't happen, and the police are quick with the yellow tape, but profoundly helpless when it comes to being proactive in these matters, IME.  Being proactive, and pristine in reporting every failure to comply with Orders is mandatory, IME. 

This...
Wait till you're dead, then call us... pattern of dealing with threats.....
that's pretty much been my experience.  Not a good strategy, and it makes life really painful.  I can't imagine what my Cousin's dd is going through, but it looks and acts like PTSD, IME.

I read through her paperwork and saw the same mistakes I made, and all the things people DO when they're speaking from the limbic system.  It was interesting to SEE it with distance... nose off all my pebbles, and pull it apart, then put it back together in a coherent manner that "squares up" for the Court officers, who don't often read more than a couple sentences into any paragraph.  You have to talk about the big things, and bounce on, without getting sidetracked down rabbit holes that drag you IN.... so powerfully, IME.

Tailor the information according to your evidence, and your specific Judge's world view.  Have everything handy, even if you don';t think you'll need it in court, just in case the Judge turns out to care about that, and not what you thought he would. 

Just in case the opposing party says and does chaotic confusing things requiring your quick response, and having your hands on EVERYTHING, easily produced in a moment's time, is important.   When do PD people NOT say and do confusing things?  They always do, IME.

Not getting defensive is important. 

Not getting baited into reacting.... which is so so hard, IME..... and always always speaking about the abuser with compassion... compassion they lack for those they're harming.   Victims must cultivate compassion for their abusers, while the abusers dive happily into chaos manufacture, which creates confusion, which drags these things out.  That's the way it goes. 

As a mother, there's protective anger, and that has to be reeled in. 

There has to be a plan A,  B and C.  Rock solid understanding of what men punish women in the courtroom for... snarkiness = bitchiness.... and that doesn't often go unpunished, IME. 

One grooms themself to anticipate the usual courtroom crazy and counter it with compassion, and the understanding stupid people need to be educated in a courtroom...and it's the job of the victims to do that, without using ANY medical jargon, just the facts.  Zero expectation.  It's not something we're taught, in life, until we're learning under fire. 

Such a shame there's not more education around the justice system, and mental health in our schools.  Innocent until proven guilty isn't how things work.  They should explain that, and stop saying it.  The same with "In the best interest of the children."  The court doesn't really care, and I doin't think it has the ability to. They should just stop blathering on about it, stating it, up front, like it means anything.  It's a slap in the face, more than an aspiration, IME.

Lighter

Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #265 on: July 03, 2020, 02:35:41 PM »
BRAVO, Lighter, for these:

1)
Quote
trying to save someone else can be tied into saving myself too

2) I can imagine how triggering it is to know someone close, who's under threat. From male aggression/violence, or from the court system.

It saddens me, that you reverberate to that so powerfully. How could you not? But how many endless, varied, multi-layered triggers for this are possible in this world?

You deserve to find your way THROUGH (not past) #1. And then to discover inner peace or (or realistically, to just feel a lot less personally reactive and responsible for fixing) situations like #2 forever.

Peace, love, moss, friendship. THESE are what you deserve.

Your precious life energy. Your mind.

I hope and "hold aloft" that you will find the balance, experience your own energy as whole and simple. Clear.

I really believe that is exactly what you're on track to doing.

Kudos, you.

Hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #266 on: July 03, 2020, 03:27:00 PM »
Hops:

Thanks for that input AND I have a mind to finish processing some of this on Monday.... a very clear vision and plan.  I feel good about it.   

There as to be balance.   Yes.

Today I felt very whole and entitled to my voice, no faffing about,  or feeling I must hold back.  Instead speaking up, speaking truth while remaining very curious about the listener's response, which I immediately called them on, without judgment.  Just stating how it affected me, and I count too.... bc I'm talking about it and holding accountable the person I'm speaking to.

And it flooooowwwwed, Hops.  Just felt so right.  So different than I'd normally approach it... with dread of conflict, but when it happened,I didn't fold.  I pointed out the judgment and criticism, I felt were unwarranted, and explained WHY my priorities were what they were and excused him to have his.  It's all good, and we agreed we were done with that discussion, and moved on, with me holding my ground the entire way. 

It felt like we broke above some cloud cover, as two grown adults speaking to each other, instead of him, adult, to me... child. 

I felt heard, and if I wasn't...
pffft. It's OK.  I'm OK with simply speaking and not being hushed or cowed into silence.  That's so simple, and was so difficult to discern for so very long. 

What an amazing feeling!  I noticed it's presence earlier..... and the conversation cemented.  The more I do it, the more cement is poured: )
Lighter

Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #267 on: July 03, 2020, 04:07:00 PM »
Quote
It felt like we broke above some cloud cover, as two grown adults speaking to each other, instead of him, adult, to me... child.

Fantastic. Frame-worthy. Cushion-embroidery.

Wonderful!

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #268 on: July 03, 2020, 04:48:53 PM »
Quote
I don't know how to determine ownership of self-care and caring for others....
when it's overstepping, to do so.  And that's the thing.... NEEEDING someone else to be OK, to feel OK myself, is codependence. 

I've got a new practice; still a work in progress. I'll just ask if there's anything I might can do for someone. Within my ability, kind of thing. I will press a little, if I'm reading someone thinking they're not worthy of being cared for or too proud to accept help. Not a LOT, just to be sure.

Where I draw THAT line is the difference between caring for others and self-care. And that's always the point in the process I keep learning about.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 04:50:46 PM by sKePTiKal »
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #269 on: July 03, 2020, 06:29:58 PM »
:: Pug head tilt::

I'm not sure I understood what you're saying as far as the framework I'm working within.  Particularly regarding FOO members' choices affecting my quality of life in profound ways I cannot escape, once that pooch is screwed.

I can easily say.... for example, Hops has asked for opinions, and mine has run it's course.  I will withdraw further opinions until I feel she's asking, and let it go at that.  No harm.  No foul.

 But when my father insists he pay a surgon to paralyze him, in a day, when he can go slowly down that lane or have surgery when it's lazer or nanobot surgery with out risk....
when Dad's unwilling to perform ANY PT, necessary with a human surgeon.... 
is that self care or..... codependence........ or..... both to do what I can to INFORM him of the truth he's so stubbornly hanging on to, like a little child?
Neither?  Something else? 

It FELT like I was the only adult in the room, and there was a bully fending me off my Father, who I really wanted to talk to.  More.  About the facts.

 It would have felt like leaving my infant father in the middle of the road, defenseless and certain to be flattened by a car if I did nothing. I felt the same exact thing when my dear B was struggling with a cancer dx, and a friend told me to run away.   Quick! GO NOW!  She knew the kind of fuck fuck it would turn into, considering his ex wife and nutsy dd.  Would I have done it differently?  Yup. Would I have left him in the middle of the road, alone?  Likely, not. 

That might be a sickness, on my part.  I'm willing to consider that... or a general weakness.... flaw... whatever THAT was.... I'll cop to it if necessary.  My youngest thinks I think too much.  Take too much responsibility for feeling responsible.  I should just chill, and know I'm making good choices.   Apparently she won't leave me in the middle of the road if I'm every struggling with childlike denial and magical thinking around huge medical decisions she can clearly SEE me floundering drunkenly with in the wrong direction towards traffic. 

And so, until Monday, caretaker sycophant just returned from out of the Country..... 
::sing song voice::

And I'm, all the sudden, no longer an adult in the room.
I am decidedly a child, reacting to SOMETHING else, much older, and I'm aware of it.  Will update once that's figured out. 

And remain curious until I have.

Lighter