Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Meh on April 11, 2020, 07:37:08 PM
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So a friend described to me how she often feels like the "bad guy" during conversations with her mother. She hasn't identified her mother as Narcissistic. There is definitely something off about their relationship though.
Today I had a not so great conversation with my mother and when I think about it no matter how the situation goes I always feel bad in some way. It feels like she sets up lose-lose situations. I feel bad regardless of what happens. I see how she pushes me around, she sounds shrill and louder and talks in this irritating whiny voice.
I don't like being dragged into it, I refused to get into it with her. I pointed out that she doesn't speak to her sister or her neighbors the way she talks to me. When I point this out she says nothing about it. She definitely doesn't want to hear it.
These conversations with her do give me a certain level of stress. It's nothing new. Nope definitely not new. It's just that every time I feel I need to write it out or something. There is always these need afterwards to get back to equilibrium, to really manage the anxiety of the experience. There is always this need to not be beaten down emotionally.
She is on some sort of antidepressant medication her husband can't even stand her when she hasn't taken it. She is rather nasty when she hasn't taken it but I don't think it's really an issue of depression in the common definition of it.
I don't want to psychoanalyze this. I'm just writing this in an attempt to de-stress. I feel frazzled and de-railed from whatever I was doing after speaking with her.
Tonight I guess I should call a friend just for a change of pace.
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Oh wow, I feel for you, G.
Especially when I read this:
I see how she pushes me around, she sounds shrill and louder and talks in this irritating whiny voice.
I can't help it, but I can't overlook voice quality. It genuinely affects my capacity to take in whatever the person is trying to convey....because if they have a teakettle, blackboard fingernails, or whiny piccolo tone....
I just want to do a little homicide. It's biological for me. It's intense. It makes me tense ALL OVER.
Recently I discovered that a reasonably nice woman in my covenant group is SO much more interesting on Zoom, because her naturally awful vocal tone gets diluted somehow.
If it were a parent? Who was already unsympathetic and guilt-tripping? I'd be in Idaho.
Don't know the solution but just want to send you solidarity on this. It's weird but REAL.
hugs
Hops
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G, I understand the need to vent and get back to normal afterwards, I think it's almost like a debrief? You kind of have to connect with normal again to process everything that just happened even if it doesn't make any sense. I always had the same thing when I spoke with or met up with my mum. It was as if she couldn't be satisfied until she'd made me feel bad. She'd push and poke and prod and I'd ignore or change the subject or stay calm whilst talking - and eventually she'd hit the spot. I remember quite clearly talking to her on the phone one morning and by the afternoon I felt so bad I knew that if I described my feelings to a doctor, they'd say I was suffering from depression. But I'd been absolutely fine before speaking to my mum and for the week or so prior to that. The less frequently I spoke to her the more I could notice the effect she had on me. So I do understand where you're coming from. And yes, especially the voice! My mum used to do this thing where if I talked about anything in my like that wasn't going well she'd do this kind of sing song, "Oh no! Oh no!" over and over again - the way a child might respond to an unpleasant situation. It used to drive me nuts and the one time I told her I was explaining the situation because I was hoping she might be able to empathise or advise me she replied that no-one had ever empathised with her and I'd just have to get used to it.
I do think in a weird way that not feeling good after you speak is a good sign - it shows you're not on the same wavelength and I don't think that is a wave length you'd want to be on. But I do remember how much it used to upset me. I hope writing it down helped a bit and that you were/are able to connect with a friend on the phone as well and that you can get back to how you felt before xx
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she'd do this kind of sing song, "Oh no! Oh no!" over and over again - the way a child might respond to an unpleasant situation. It used to drive me nuts and the one time I told her I was explaining the situation because I was hoping she might be able to empathise or advise me she replied that no-one had ever empathised with her and I'd just have to get used to it.
Allow me to share my primal, deep from the roots of earth, guttural, heartfelt, body-felt, brain-felt, incredibly loud, granite-cracking
UGH!
hugs,
Hops
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she'd do this kind of sing song, "Oh no! Oh no!" over and over again - the way a child might respond to an unpleasant situation. It used to drive me nuts and the one time I told her I was explaining the situation because I was hoping she might be able to empathise or advise me she replied that no-one had ever empathised with her and I'd just have to get used to it.
Allow me to share my primal, deep from the roots of earth, guttural, heartfelt, body-felt, brain-felt, incredibly loud, granite-cracking
UGH!
hugs,
Hops
Lol, Hops, yes, I feel the same! xx
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Just sitting on a sofa drinking a beer while listening to some ambient music and a space heater with a wobbly fan blade.
No new conversations to report but I will leave the Subject as such. Conversations are sort of all we have when distancing and I've called a couple old coworker friends this past week. Conversations are like a tonic sometimes for everybody. We like them, we need them. Is it because we get to talk about ourselves or out of boredom. Sometimes it's unknown... really I think people do need to connect, I'm always thinking about the selfish ulterior motive in everything but really I think people just need to know they are still in that web of humanity and that is why we talk.
Saw a slithering garden snake today and some dental work fell out of my mouth (of course it would now) but without pain so it's no emergency. Other than that the day was uneventful.
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I think people just need to know they are still in that web of humanity and that is why we talk.
And that's why we post, too!
Sorry about the dental glitch, G. Hope you can soon get it fixed. I figure doctor's offices should be among the cleanest places to go....
Good to hear you sounding peaceful.
hugs
Hops
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Noticing how I seem to have a generalized anxiety issue. It's just so easy for me to go into anxiety and outside factors don't help much. I'm tired of stress and anxiety, in a way it's not fair to feel bad all the time. Not that anything is fair. Though when a person has anxiety it just becomes a normal norm. Normal norm. The typical.
It just doesn't help much it makes life unpleasant. Anxiety sort of branches out in life and effects moments throughout the day. I'm so wired towards anxiety, definitely my brain has just had a lot of practice on that subject. I always jump into a nature versus nurture moment. Doesn't matter where it came from I simply don't want all the stress anymore. But I guess the problem is we don't control everything in life it's really not possible to cut it out.
Blabbering.
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No blabbering in my book, G.
I think you're very descriptive about anxiety and how it feels.
I was tortured by anxiety disorder for a couple decades. It got sooooo much better in time, so chin up....same time, I can imagine what the pandemic does. Like pouring gasoline on a fire.
Hope you find some calming ways to cope.
Hops
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Yeah Hops anxiety does come and go but then it always does seem to come back again eventually like a theme song.
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Well now that I chatted with a friend I've come to think that perhaps this isn't just GAD or pandemic induced anxiety and depression but instead it might actually be mid life crisis malaise (HAHAHAHA) because things are fucked enough already. I'm thinking maybe I should write something about but I don't feel too strongly on writing about the topic. Just now watching Tedtalk videos about the subject that are all hosted by highly accomplished people and pretty much just saying how great they are. So what am I doing. Am I bored. Am I stressed... who knows what's going on anymore. We are inside and not going to places without worry.
What if all these important things are happening in life AND it's all just getting ignored. What if we are turning our own TV's off but we are the TV and we refuse to listen to ourselves...
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Occasionally I come here and I write random things. This morning I wanted to yank the covers up and stay in bed, half because I stay up too late (listening to music) and half because I don't want to face life stuff as it just lacks excitement and positive emotions and feelings I guess. So this leads me back to that good old self care idea. The basics of it. Exercise even in it's mild forms I think is part of that self care. Exercise never seems urgent or essential to me personally. Exercise is an extra add on of a thing that is good to do, if I go for a walk but don't get my heart rate up I say to myself well I went for a walk. It's been since high school since I've taken my heart rate. So of course I googled the heart rate numbers because I had no recollection in the faintest of what it should be. I jogged a little bit in place for a while under the porch area in the rain semi sheltered. Without too much strain I was able to get my heart rate up. When I do it I enjoy exercising, I tell myself yes I really can do this more often. Maybe not on a daily basis in all circumstances because it sort of depends on where you are at right. Though for now really I can do it. My feet get more sore than they used to when I was younger and I figure that is probably part of losing collagen which seems like it buffered everything when people are young.
Daily there is always a list of priorities and non priority things to do. Sometimes maybe it's good to pay attention to how I am spending time and if it's either on a priority or non priority. I don't watch a lot of TV but all i have to do is log into Skype or Facebook for a few minutes to see if anything important or interesting is happening and then I can waste too much time doing that. Facebook I find is a wasteland. I've got at least a couple friends who use Skype and it's probably worth virtual conversing with them because they are pretty smart and in the process of chatting with them sometimes I discover new things or think about something differently.
Even when one has time it can still feel like there isn't enough time. I wonder where this comes from. If it comes from not getting stuff done fast enough. Not getting enough stuff done with drastic results. If time drags on during this situation. If there really is low energy and depression. -- Even when there is a lot of time it can feel like I am still skimming the surface of my life. Some of this I think comes down to distractions and the amount of effort it takes me to focus on any one thing. I would venture to say that this time has been meaningful for everyone. Meaningful because we get to spend some time with ourselves noticing how we live, what we think. Meaningful because we also have this future world to inhabit and some anxiety for me at least between exposure risk and doing errands/tasks/making a living.
There is a lot of discouragement and frustration that I notice in myself even as an adult. Maybe it's a result of how my mind habitually works. Definitely I get annoyed with myself because I wish my mind was more keyed in and focused at times. I check out. Some of it could be due to boredom, I don't often acknowledge boredom to myself in fact I have a very hard time knowing when I am bored.
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The skimming through life thing resonates with me, G, I often feel like I'm just kind of treading water and getting through the day. No idea what the answer to that is, I wish I did! I think boredom can be such a big part of life that it just becomes normal. Having to settle, maybe? Not getting what you want, maybe not even knowing what you want because the opportunities to figure it out don't come along? Hard to know. I hear ya xx
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I'm not on Facebook, G, but I can really relate to the idea of slipping down endless rabbit holes on the internet. It's a true time sink for me, but also soothes my own anxiety.
Lack of focus is the key feature of ADD, which is my biggest challenge. I think with enough motivation I can power through that, or I often did when I was younger. And I was always able to work hard to earn my living. That said, on my own now and without the pressure to turn up at a job every day, that spacey side is ruling.
I'm arguing with it some. My most recent answer I described on another thread, but it was cutting loose with silly self talk, to get myself going through a tedious task.
I wonder if you might be depressed, as in chemically? Have you ever been prescribed antidepressants? A lot of docs are doing telemedicine now.... just a thought from NOT-a-doctor Hops.
I hope some light comes in for you soon.
Hugs
Hops
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I read you: Two and Hops.
Hops: If you have focusing challenges/ADD then how is it that you are such a good writer? It's just curiosity on my part. Does the focus problem have any impact on your writing at all?
Sometimes my thinking is so disorganized or maybe even comes to me in a clump that my writing doesn't feel organized sometimes. I also wonder if my thoughts have devolved into lazy, messy, anxious thinking.
Anyways I don't have time to properly respond to the two of you. All of a sudden it randomly occurred to me that I had not been here for a while and I should at least say a minimal 'hello' to the board.
Yeah I have been diagnosed with depression at times and anxiety, I took pills for it long ago. After years of not taking anything I live with the ups and downs. I suspect that something more than chemistry is underneath it all. I have evidence too not just suspicions. I don't subscribe to fixing everything with pills anymore because they often don't fix anything. I do get something out of writing here, even if some of it sounds constantly down which I guess I am sorry for if it does. There is usually one key idea or line which I can end up putting in bold - an idea that holds a lot of weight for me.
Even when there is a lot of time it can feel like I am still skimming the surface of my life.
This above stood out for me for two reasons. Believing that I would do something if only I had more time is a false belief. So if time isn't the catalyst we often give it credit for then what is the catalyst? Also, skimming the surface of my life - well it's a fucking deep thing to notice and I'm pretty sure many people at some point can feel like this. I'm slowly toying with the significance and meaning of that idea. Maybe I will give myself all summer to work on that one line there.
Anyhow, talk about focusing. I need to toggle back over to where I was. The maniacal part of working on a computer is that it's a portal to the universe. Hiya people out there in the universe.
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Hi G,
Thanks for this question!
If you have focusing challenges/ADD then how is it that you are such a good writer? It's just curiosity on my part. Does the focus problem have any impact on your writing at all?
There's an odd "gift within the problem" for some with ADD, called hyperfocus. For something that interests me....mainly writing....I can focus like a fiend. My brain locks on, everything else (such as opening mail or tidying the kitchen!) fades into unimportance. It's an odd thing but it's real. I got a Teaching Fellowship for my M.A. at an "elite" university, and that's nearly unfathomable to me. But it happened because I would sink SO deeply into language. Once it got to poetry, it all came together and evidently worked.
I connected to this too:
Even when there is a lot of time it can feel like I am still skimming the surface of my life.
I said to my dear earlier T, for EIGHT YEARS:
"I have lost interest in my own life."
I finally stopped asking myself why I felt it and faced that it was pure depression talking (plus grief over my lost daughter and family). Once I just starting calling it a symptom of depression, very slowly my interest in my own dreams began to return. It'll be a while and it's been long and slow, but I realized at some point that because I felt that way for one long period, there is no reason at all to believe that I have to feel that way forever. Therapy and endurance and loving connections with people eventually pulled me out of the depths of it. It comes back sometimes, but not like the deep gray thing it was.
Hugs
Hops
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Is hyper focus only with writing?
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Anything creative, really.
It could be drawing or making something...though I don't do much of those any more.
It's 90% with writing (or editing).
Hugs
Hops
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I'm so tired. Watching a video about Jacques Derrida and the narrator says: "Love is Narcissistic." Then of course I must come deposit it here, in a compulsive, oh no, please don't make me analyze this right now sort of way.
I have to save it for later, not like a candy bar, instead more like a rotten thing in the refrigerator. I don't want to think about it but I know I must think about it eventually I will have to. It's annoying me right now even but I need to conserve some sort of focus and concentration.
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Ahhh, well.
You don't have to believe that narrator/scriptwriter.
Safely parked here until/if you want to revisit.
Meanwhile, good to hear your voice, G.
You've been missed.
hugs
Hops
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Curses exist in stories of mythology, and if there was such a thing as an actual modern-day curse, emotional damage might qualify. Maybe a curse would be Narcissism because it's invisible yet powerful. A hex that sticks and won't go away, present wherever one goes, unshakable unfurling in ways we can't fully understand until it's too late. What else takes an act of magic to undo.
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Curses exist in stories of mythology, and if there was such a thing as an actual modern-day curse, emotional damage might qualify. Maybe a curse would be Narcissism because it's invisible yet powerful. A hex that sticks and won't go away, present wherever one goes, unshakable unfurling in ways we can't fully understand until it's too late. What else takes an act of magic to undo.
I got very into curses at one point, G, and just that whole kind of mythical/ juju/other wordly kind of stuff. Because, as you say, things like Narcissism and the events something like that contributes to (or causes) and it made no sense to me. You can't deal with it in a logical way, because it's such an illogical condition. Unless, of course, you look at it as emotional damage and then in makes more sense. But yes, I've often thought of it as some sort of curse that needs a magical/miracle cure. It's hard when you wish someone else would be cured, I think? xx
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Hiya Two,
There is something otherworldly about accessing emotions for someone who generally has no need to or learned to motor through life, sucking it up. There is something otherworldly about the inner-child stuff. Speaking of I've not checked in with my inner-child for a LONG time. It's all those invisible yet still precious things. They are magical in a sense. Looking inwards doing a personal inventory and peeking at the interior landscape, it is reminiscent of Shamanism. Yeah, emotions are not of the realm of logic. Logic is all about applying rules and expecting something to be sound or unsound.
Well, I was reading Tennyson's poem "The Lady of Shalott."
I'm not an Arthurian Legend follower I like the art inspired by it, that whole Romanticism Period, the Waterhouse paintings and such. Certainly, I've outgrown it, and still, there is no end to learning about art/history.
It's a bit of a corny poem; however, I am going to allow myself to go there anyhow because I want something romantic in my life even if it's not actually romance with another person. Oh but to get to my rambling point there was a part in that poem about curses and it got me to thinking about curses throughout history, about the concept in general.
Life generally requires us all to weaveth steadily. It goes back to my lamenting about living topically, being busy, too busy, or having excuses or distractions. Can I even be melodramatic and say it's tragic, can I say that we live tragically. I mean, one can't even blame oneself. It's all part of our culture too, to keep on going and put on a smile face even if we are cursed.
It sounds self absorbed, self pitying but it's true WE ARE CURSED, it's like having a black bandage forever adhered over one's heart. There is definitely a metaphysical hex when it comes to emotional damage.
No time hath she to sport and play:
A charmed web she weaves alway.
A curse is on her, if she stay
Her weaving, either night or day,
To look down to Camelot.
She knows not what the curse may be;
Therefore she weaveth steadily,
Therefore no other care hath she,
The Lady of Shalott.
She lives with little joy or fear....
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G,
You are such a profound woman.
Thank you for this, which rang chimes in me:
There is something otherworldly about accessing emotions for someone who generally has no need to or learned to motor through life, sucking it up. There is something otherworldly about the inner-child stuff. (http://There is something otherworldly about accessing emotions for someone who generally has no need to or learned to motor through life, sucking it up. There is something otherworldly about the inner-child stuff.)
And for this:
Can I even be melodramatic and say it's tragic, can I say that we live tragically. (http://Can I even be melodramatic and say it's tragic, can I say that we live tragically.)
Yes, you can. It sounds like deep awareness combined with deep acceptance of the human condition, to me. In the face of the reality of the tragedy, we march on anyway. One step at a time.
Who you gonna call? GHOST BUSTERS!
hugs
Hops
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Today, just very busy as if it slipped by in a breeze.
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Tragedy to live without noticing what's in front of us.
Without awareness.
As though we're sleeping, not awake.
I've always thought of the curse as more of an affliction. BEING afflicted by the afflictions of others, when I wasn't even aware of my own. Once we SEE our own, we have an easier time understanding and identifying affliction in others, IME. Of seeing ourselves in them... them in us.
We're all afflicted, or cursed in some way. We all have a need for balance in our lives. There's no chance to strive for it, if we don't know it's missing, IME.
This is a really interesting thread, Bean: )
Lighter
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I kind of get it, because nonstop awareness and monitoring my presentness or lack thereof is just....
Beyond
Me
Sometimes I wish it weren't so!
But I got to like myself even with my limits.
hugs
Hops
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Hiya Lighter and Hops,
I read you.
I'm just stopping by with sore ears from the fireworks, nothing much to say right now, too stressed about deadlines.
Thinking about it though, maybe it's a matter of what we are present with. Is there only one 'present' ? I ask because I really don't know, I'm not sure.
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Hiya Two,
There is something otherworldly about accessing emotions for someone who generally has no need to or learned to motor through life, sucking it up. There is something otherworldly about the inner-child stuff. Speaking of I've not checked in with my inner-child for a LONG time. It's all those invisible yet still precious things. They are magical in a sense. Looking inwards doing a personal inventory and peeking at the interior landscape, it is reminiscent of Shamanism. Yeah, emotions are not of the realm of logic. Logic is all about applying rules and expecting something to be sound or unsound.
Well, I was reading Tennyson's poem "The Lady of Shalott."
I'm not an Arthurian Legend follower I like the art inspired by it, that whole Romanticism Period, the Waterhouse paintings and such. Certainly, I've outgrown it, and still, there is no end to learning about art/history.
It's a bit of a corny poem; however, I am going to allow myself to go there anyhow because I want something romantic in my life even if it's not actually romance with another person. Oh but to get to my rambling point there was a part in that poem about curses and it got me to thinking about curses throughout history, about the concept in general.
Life generally requires us all to weaveth steadily. It goes back to my lamenting about living topically, being busy, too busy, or having excuses or distractions. Can I even be melodramatic and say it's tragic, can I say that we live tragically. I mean, one can't even blame oneself. It's all part of our culture too, to keep on going and put on a smile face even if we are cursed.
It sounds self absorbed, self pitying but it's true WE ARE CURSED, it's like having a black bandage forever adhered over one's heart. There is definitely a metaphysical hex when it comes to emotional damage.
No time hath she to sport and play:
A charmed web she weaves alway.
A curse is on her, if she stay
Her weaving, either night or day,
To look down to Camelot.
She knows not what the curse may be;
Therefore she weaveth steadily,
Therefore no other care hath she,
The Lady of Shalott.
She lives with little joy or fear....
Gosh I was nodding all the way through that, G, and I love Arthurian legend! The whole South West of England is steeped in it; so many places where - according to legend - Arthur was born/fought/died/buried/sat with the Knights and so on. I've visited a lot of the places that legends are attached to and the bit I don't like is that there's always loads of other people there. It's to do with what you say about being busy - I find it impossible to kind of relax, let go and tune in to that mystical/spiritual/inner child, whatever you want to call it stuff, when there's loads of other people about and I have to find change for the car park and bustle my way through loads of people to get where I'm going and so on. I love imagining how England was before there were a lot of people building here - miles and miles of fields and woodlands and just so much space. I focus less on it being cold, hard to find food, short life expectancy and so on :) It's difficult to share space with people who are on a different wave length, I find? If you're at a place and everyone else there is wanting to enjoy it quietly and feel something then it feels very different to if you're there and everyone else wants to take pictures, buy tat in the gift shop and chuck their rubbish all over the floor. We've been to Stonehenge before now for the solstice. There are various theories as to what the stones actually signify and what their original meaning was but they've become a sight seeing attraction now. You have to pay to walk round them, everything's fenced off, there are security guards walking about. And I get it, because a lot of people don't respect their surroundings. At solstice, some people go for a truly spiritual experience and you see them drumming, meditating, dancing, hugging and so on. But loads also just go to get drunk and take selfies and it just doesn't work with both sorts there. It's hard to find people with the same sort of vibe, I think.
Describing emotional damage as a metaphysical hex is spot on, I think. It's so damaging and yet so senseless and unnecessary. And I think we've yet to find the magic cure :) I've not read The Lady of Shallot for so many years now, I'm going to have to re-read it. I used to love it when I was younger.
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Me too, Tupp:
I love imagining how England was before there were a lot of people building here - miles and miles of fields and woodlands and just so much space.
One of my favorite photos is of me standing in front of the stones at Stonehenge in 1964 when I was fourteen, before they added ropes and barriers. There were no crowds at all and I feel lucky to have it.
If I had my druthers and could live in the U.K. it'd probably be up north in Scotland. As long as I had a very warm cottage! Then again, to live in a Welsh village that had a good choir...heaven.
hugs
Hops
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Spoke with two friends today, more listened really, I'm sorta feeling brain dead like not much is happening up there besides anxiety. It still feels good to keep in touch, it's two women from work that I would coordinate group outings with. It does go to show that making an effort to make friends is worth it sometimes in the long run. Of course I knew them from work so it was easy as they were around so often. Meeting new people out of the blue on the other hand isn't so easy and even more so with this Covid-macrocosm we live in.
I don't think I have any creative thoughts right now so I'm not going to force anything.
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Glad you connected with friends today, G.
I understand what a difference it makes.
I have a Sunday Explorations (secular) discussion
group meeting twice a month, and it was good to
sit with about 8 other people (coed) and just hear
whatever anyone wanted to talk about. One couple
though had lost their son unexpectedly 10 days before.
They are shattered but still warm and want to connect.
I'll ask them next week if they'd like a yard visit.
It really helps to hear voices, and see faces if you
Zoom it.
Hope it happens again soon, G--
Hops
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Me too, Tupp:
I love imagining how England was before there were a lot of people building here - miles and miles of fields and woodlands and just so much space.
One of my favorite photos is of me standing in front of the stones at Stonehenge in 1964 when I was fourteen, before they added ropes and barriers. There were no crowds at all and I feel lucky to have it.
If I had my druthers and could live in the U.K. it'd probably be up north in Scotland. As long as I had a very warm cottage! Then again, to live in a Welsh village that had a good choir...heaven.
hugs
Hops
It must have been amazing to be there before everyone else wanted to go, Hops. It's so commercialised now. And I get it, it costs money to look after it, they had to rope it off because people kept climbing on, writing messages on the stones, chipping bits off to take home and so on. But I find it really sad as well. When we drive towards it I imagine what it would have been like to get there on foot or on horseback, and how you'd have felt when you saw it off in the distance, with it being this amazing spiritual centre. It would have had so much meaning then and been so important. And it still is for some people, but for many it is just a tourist attraction now and there's more meaning in the gift shop than anywhere else. I know that some people who are really into 'the stones' prefer to visit other sites now, that aren't as big or popular but where you can just stand and feel the energy and kind of connect to, I don't know, history? spirituality? yourself?. I suppose it's different for everyone. There are many such sites in Scotland, I believe. I do find the wilds of some parts of Scotland appealing, and did read up on a few communities up there, particularly on the islands, very cut off and remote. But yes, blooming cold. YOu'd need a good set of thermals :) Lol xx
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I was pretty excited that they cancelled the celebration at Stonehenge for solstice this year, and then did a live video of the sunrise with no crowds. It's the way I have always wanted to experience it and likely the only time in history it has ever happened!
Ive been reading that they are finding evidence of other henges in the area, including one that goes AROUND Stonehenge, forming a shape that looks like a giant eye (which if you are a LOTR fan is chilling) I love the stuff.
CB
They did find some more evidence, CB, it is quite amazing that they are still discovering stuff because they have new technology that can do magic! They think it's the biggest neolithic site in Britain, which is pretty amazing.
I missed the video of the sunrise, would you believe, it would have been great. There's someone on Facebook who does great night time shots of Stonehenge, it's called Stonehenge Dronescapes, you might like it :) xx
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Spoke with two friends today, more listened really, I'm sorta feeling brain dead like not much is happening up there besides anxiety. It still feels good to keep in touch, it's two women from work that I would coordinate group outings with. It does go to show that making an effort to make friends is worth it sometimes in the long run. Of course I knew them from work so it was easy as they were around so often. Meeting new people out of the blue on the other hand isn't so easy and even more so with this Covid-macrocosm we live in.
I don't think I have any creative thoughts right now so I'm not going to force anything.
It's nice that you caught up with people, G, I've found it harder and harder to make the effort the last few weeks and a couple of others I know have said the same. I'm not sure why, just different habits now, maybe? Good that you got to chat though, and hopefully there will be a time in the not too distant future when you can get together again xx
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I'll check out the drone site, Tupp. Thanks for passing that along! I never get tired of them.
BBC had an absolutely stunning shot of the Neowise Comet streaking above Stonehenge last weekend. A fellow said he went specifically to see it and he was speechless. He said he will never again see anything like that. I think if I ever went to Britain and saw some of the things I have read about for so long, I would probably just go face down in the grass and cry.
Meanwhile, it's going to be 103 degrees today (39.4 C), so I'm planning food that requires no cooking. Not even walks today.
CB
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I'll check out the drone site, Tupp. Thanks for passing that along! I never get tired of them.
BBC had an absolutely stunning shot of the Neowise Comet streaking above Stonehenge last weekend. A fellow said he went specifically to see it and he was speechless. He said he will never again see anything like that. I think if I ever went to Britain and saw some of the things I have read about for so long, I would probably just go face down in the grass and cry.
Meanwhile, it's going to be 103 degrees today (39.4 C), so I'm planning food that requires no cooking. Not even walks today.
CB
Ha ha, you could lay down and cry, there are lots of beautiful places and spaces. There's also a lot of rubbish, traffic, drunk people and other less desirable things lol, but if you ever do get over here I would be very happy to show you around and shout at the drunk people for you if necessary :)
103 degrees is hot. Oh my days, I think my English skin would fry. It's raining here at the minute, not very warm and it feels like it's almost dark even though it's only five in the afternoon because it's so cloudy.
The comet pictures have been breathtaking, haven't they? Although one person got the sort of shot I normally do; just cloud and a kind of smudge on one side, that did the rounds of the internet today and made me laugh :) xx
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For those who felt they were somehow perpetually rejected by a narcissistic family member etc. I never fully understood the science of it. Maybe the anterior cingulate cortex is completely messed up forever.
https://www.purdue.edu/uns/html3month/2005/050727.Williams.exclusion.html
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@ TWO
It's nice that you caught up with people, G, I've found it harder and harder to make the effort the last few weeks and a couple of others I know have said the same. I'm not sure why, just different habits now, maybe? Good that you got to chat though, and hopefully there will be a time in the not too distant future when you can get together again xx
Oh GOD YES Two, there is a malaise setting in. I felt an uneasiness or lack of motivation to reach out and return one person's call and then zoom with the other one. I did it because I want to be a decent friend and also for my own mental health. I never intended to drop the ball either, but a combo of moving further away AND quarantine has made it, so I don't want to see them. I do want to see them, but I'm not going to risk it right now. Plus, it's not very satisfying to have phone calls and zoom meetings some days. The word depression is overused; it could be appropriate here though? The more time goes on without contacting someone, I feel like I don't want to. But also I have nothing too exciting to add sometimes, I find myself quiet while they chat away, it's not always like that it's like the weather. I hope I get chatty again at some point.
It is getting harder, maybe phone calls don't ding our reward system that much or we all got so boring! Come to think of it both friends were telling me the details of cleaning out their closets. It's not exactly the best conversation stuff.
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@ TWO
It's nice that you caught up with people, G, I've found it harder and harder to make the effort the last few weeks and a couple of others I know have said the same. I'm not sure why, just different habits now, maybe? Good that you got to chat though, and hopefully there will be a time in the not too distant future when you can get together again xx
Oh GOD YES Two, there is a malaise setting in. I felt an uneasiness or lack of motivation to reach out and return one person's call and then zoom with the other one. I did it because I want to be a decent friend and also for my own mental health. I never intended to drop the ball either, but a combo of moving further away AND quarantine has made it, so I don't want to see them. I do want to see them, but I'm not going to risk it right now. Plus, it's not very satisfying to have phone calls and zoom meetings some days. The word depression is overused; it could be appropriate here though? The more time goes on without contacting someone, I feel like I don't want to. But also I have nothing too exciting to add sometimes, I find myself quiet while they chat away, it's not always like that it's like the weather. I hope I get chatty again at some point.
It is getting harder, maybe phone calls don't ding our reward system that much or we all got so boring! Come to think of it both friends were telling me the details of cleaning out their closets. It's not exactly the best conversation stuff.
It's definitely the lack of something to talk about with me, G. I don't live the most interesting life at the best of times and I do all my deep and meaningful stuff on here. At the moment, no-one I know has anything to talk about, because there's really nothing going on other than trying to avoid catching anything, for most people. So yes, I have made the effort to text, just to say hi, but other than that I've the one friend I always talk to once a week and we just have that sort of friendship where we can chat about nothing in particular anyway. I think a lot of people are feeling the same way. I think the initial novelty of having lots of time to clean out cupboards has passed!
I have arranged a socially distanced coffee with another parent I know who lives nearby, in her garden, and if that remains a reasonably safe activity I might try to do that regularly. She has said the same thing though, that she's got into the habit of not speaking to anyone and she had to really force herself to make the effort. Hopefully we'll all feel a bit more sociable once we can meet up without passing on scary germs!
I'll have a look at that other link you posted later on, it looks interesting! xx
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I like this topic...feels as though connecting/conversations are really about everything, right now, with so much activity suspended.
I'm sometimes thinking of social connection these days as like preventive medicine or exercise. I don't enjoy it all the time, but sense it's an essential protection against future depression. I am making myself reach out, think of somebody who might enjoy the phone, or I'm trying to encourage myself to schedule a 30-minute Zoom. I am concerned about winter isolation so want to maximize whatever connections I have now so we might stay in contact (even Zoom) during winter, to push back against loneliness then. I figure for every less-than-thrilling chat I have now, the habit of connecting when I can might be some insurance against spinning down when the cold moves in. So I'm heading to other people's back yards too, those who have space for 8-foot visits and have said they'd enjoy it. I'll soak up the sight of friendly faces, which will matter more, ultimately, than anything we say, I figure. That's the plan, anyway.
The Zoom meeting that really makes a solid emotional difference to me is my Covenant Group. We really know each other by now pretty well, and we also rotate leading the meeting with different topics. Nothing formal, but a few "questions to ponder" the leader emails beforehand. Anybody can veer the comments in any direction they want, and we use a taking-turns structure so everyone knows they'll be really listened to at some point. It eases the mind and heart, I find.
I led a topic I called "Time Shifts" last time, and it went all over the place but people seemed to really feel good about it. The thing I notice in that group about Zoom is something I wrote up for the church newsletter that surprised me. The tech creates a new view of the participants I've found myself enjoying at a different level. When we meet ftf, we're basically across a room or side by side, and though I'd never want it to be permanent, in this weird time, Zoom also has a silver lining I can notice. Each time an individual speaks, and because they're fairly close to the camera, I find I'm savoring the expressions (or micro-expressions) on their faces close up, as I've never really been able to see before. Noticing how the look in their eyes warms or changes as they speak. Picking up on backgrounds in their homes, a painting or color or plant -- gives me a sense of another unique layer of personality. Or cat! A couple are cat people and every now and then a cat just sticks its butt in the picture or its tail drapes through the view. Funny and comforting. (My dog invariably winds up jamming her nose under my chin to be sure she gets a turn.)
"Time Shifts" became a winding commentary about quarantine feelings (kind of a suspension), age, nature/seasons, cosmic differences, the perspective of sleeping without alarm clocks, noticing, noticing. I think "noticing" was really the theme. But talking about time, even as it seems scary right now, with them was comforting. We also considered moments in our lives when time seemed to race or slow, and why. I enjoyed it. Mainly because of seeing them, and how they all keep showing up. We're going to do a caaaaarefully socially-distanced reunion, maybe, later this summer.
I have one other "group conversation" Zoom that meets twice a month, a co-ed secular discussion group that's evolving into just a social kind of time. Somebody hosts it and there's a take-turns time at the beginning where people check in with what's been going on. (Last time a painful moment was when one couple explained they lost their son 10 days ago...but it was so good they were there, shattered but warm and present.) They're all very smart, good hearted people, and I felt grateful. Both of these groups have about eight members, which seems to be a decent size for sharing for about an hour and a half or sometimes two. (I left a little early.)
Anyhoo, that's my input on Coversations at the mo'.
hugs
Hops
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Reading about those connections made me smile, Hops. It does sound very comforting and likely to help you through the darker months.
Those groups are very fortunate to count you as a member. I feel the same about you in this group: )
Lighter
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For those who felt they were somehow perpetually rejected by a narcissistic family member etc. I never fully understood the science of it. Maybe the anterior cingulate cortex is completely messed up forever.
https://www.purdue.edu/uns/html3month/2005/050727.Williams.exclusion.html
That was an interesting read, G, I think I might delve a bit deeper into that. I think that realm of cold shoulder/silent treatment often becomes conflated with no contact or with just needing space to think or calm down before addressing a problem. It's a difficult area to navigate, I think. My mum did use silence as punishment when I was little and I think it led to my incessant need to talk and keep everyone happy. I just couldn't stand it. Equally I know some would see my no contact with her as doing the same thing but it was a decision I took after a lot of trying to have a relationship with her that didn't leave my mental health in tatters. I'm interested to know more in the actual neurological side of it so I'll read up on that some more. Thanks for posting it xx
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Thank you, ((((Lighter))).
Back at ya.
Hugs
Hops
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IME, silence, when used pinitively, is a super violent action.
It's intended to do trauma to the person they're freezing out.
Lighter
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I like this topic...feels as though connecting/conversations are really about everything, right now, with so much activity suspended.
I'm sometimes thinking of social connection these days as like preventive medicine or exercise. I don't enjoy it all the time, but sense it's an essential protection against future depression. I am making myself reach out, think of somebody who might enjoy the phone, or I'm trying to encourage myself to schedule a 30-minute Zoom. I am concerned about winter isolation so want to maximize whatever connections I have now so we might stay in contact (even Zoom) during winter, to push back against loneliness then. I figure for every less-than-thrilling chat I have now, the habit of connecting when I can might be some insurance against spinning down when the cold moves in. So I'm heading to other people's back yards too, those who have space for 8-foot visits and have said they'd enjoy it. I'll soak up the sight of friendly faces, which will matter more, ultimately, than anything we say, I figure. That's the plan, anyway.
The Zoom meeting that really makes a solid emotional difference to me is my Covenant Group. We really know each other by now pretty well, and we also rotate leading the meeting with different topics. Nothing formal, but a few "questions to ponder" the leader emails beforehand. Anybody can veer the comments in any direction they want, and we use a taking-turns structure so everyone knows they'll be really listened to at some point. It eases the mind and heart, I find.
I led a topic I called "Time Shifts" last time, and it went all over the place but people seemed to really feel good about it. The thing I notice in that group about Zoom is something I wrote up for the church newsletter that surprised me. The tech creates a new view of the participants I've found myself enjoying at a different level. When we meet ftf, we're basically across a room or side by side, and though I'd never want it to be permanent, in this weird time, Zoom also has a silver lining I can notice. Each time an individual speaks, and because they're fairly close to the camera, I find I'm savoring the expressions (or micro-expressions) on their faces close up, as I've never really been able to see before. Noticing how the look in their eyes warms or changes as they speak. Picking up on backgrounds in their homes, a painting or color or plant -- gives me a sense of another unique layer of personality. Or cat! A couple are cat people and every now and then a cat just sticks its butt in the picture or its tail drapes through the view. Funny and comforting. (My dog invariably winds up jamming her nose under my chin to be sure she gets a turn.)
"Time Shifts" became a winding commentary about quarantine feelings (kind of a suspension), age, nature/seasons, cosmic differences, the perspective of sleeping without alarm clocks, noticing, noticing. I think "noticing" was really the theme. But talking about time, even as it seems scary right now, with them was comforting. We also considered moments in our lives when time seemed to race or slow, and why. I enjoyed it. Mainly because of seeing them, and how they all keep showing up. We're going to do a caaaaarefully socially-distanced reunion, maybe, later this summer.
I have one other "group conversation" Zoom that meets twice a month, a co-ed secular discussion group that's evolving into just a social kind of time. Somebody hosts it and there's a take-turns time at the beginning where people check in with what's been going on. (Last time a painful moment was when one couple explained they lost their son 10 days ago...but it was so good they were there, shattered but warm and present.) They're all very smart, good hearted people, and I felt grateful. Both of these groups have about eight members, which seems to be a decent size for sharing for about an hour and a half or sometimes two. (I left a little early.)
Anyhoo, that's my input on Coversations at the mo'.
hugs
Hops
That was interesting to read, Hopsie, and particularly for me as I often feel that social interactions make me feel more lonely and isolated. I've found not doing groups, interactions, general chit chat on the bus and so on much better for my mental health. There are people I do love to chat to - on here, for instance, and a small number of friends who I enjoy the connection with - what we actually talk about isn't important. But I do find a lot of social interaction quite stressful. I think for me the connection is really important. Other than here, I don't feel I've found a group that I connect with in the same way, whether face to face or online. I love the sound of your discussion about time. Would you call that metaphysical? I don't know if it's the right word but it popped into my head. I think that's what I miss with people. A lot of people I know want often want to moan rather than talk. I think that's why I find it stressful. I'm happy to listen to someone if they need to offload but only if it's someone I really care about, I think? I just don't think I'm that interested in other people's problems unless they really mean a lot to me? Maybe that's what I need to work on when we get back to mingling again; finding people I can have conversations with that perhaps aren't about their own personal situations all the time? Mmmm. That's something to ponder. I need a T shirt that says, "DON'T TELL ME, I'M NOT INTERESTED!" lol xx
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I think you've put your finger on it, Tupp.
The reason those two Zoom groups are so positively distracting for me is that they're not just "friend groups" (where folks would naturally talk about personal lives and problems, often at length). They are structured groups with intentional topics, which allows people to focus on the pleasure of discussion and thinking for its own sake. But there's some personal news time built in, too.
The co-ed group has abandoned structured topics for now and it is still interesting, but I think I actually enjoy the topic discussions more, since I haven't spent enough social time with most of those people to follow everything quite as well. I think the Covenant Group has the best structure of all, because its format gives you the best of both. I call it "the churchiest part of church" is the sense not of religion, but of feeling love and feeling loved during it. Here's how a Covenant Group meeting goes:
--Opening Words/Chalice Lighting (short reading that is germane to gathering...kind of acknowledging "here we are together again and this has meaning")
--Check-Ins (each person gets up to 5 minutes uninterrupted) to give an overview of how they are doing in the present and for the last two weeks). Because of these, we stay on top of what's happening personally for each other.
--Topic Discussion (whoever's leading explains the topic, and repeats 2-4 "questions to ponder" that generally were emailed a few days before. Then we just speak, uninterrupted due to the "Talking Stick". You can focus on any or all of the questions to say whatever comes to mind, or you can forgo that and just free-associate in any way you'd like about the topic). We don't strictly track time amounts but over time, I've noticed people develop a rhythm and share time quite well, with everyone having time to speak and nobody left out.
--Closing Words (another reading to wind up the structured part). Blow out candle. (The leader does a candle for everybody. These days, I just hold up the big fat candle we've always used when gathering at my house. And we raise hands instead of passing a "talking object/stick.")
When I lead I invariably subject everyone to a nice long poem and they put up with that very kindly. Sometimes people just Google quotations on a topic and read them to get us started; those are good too. Or something else. It's fun to lead because you are really creating a "thinking experience" to share--and no single person dominates discussion and people don't get interrupted. And the way different people approach it is fascinating.
I tried a Zoom-with-a-friend again yesterday and it was a surprisingly intimate conversation. This woman (who's also in my Covenant Group) shared a lot of very personal stuff, and I found I did too. Oddly, rather than M, I wound up talking most about my mother, as she had been discussing hers, and we talked about N-ism and things like that in some depth. It was terrific. We talked for an hour and agreed we're going to do it again and for the same reason--we know winter is coming and feel we don't want to turn down any opportunity to be social, even on Zoom.
I wonder if some of the folks who occasionally call your son for a chat would try that with him?
hugs
Hops
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I like the sounds of that structured group, Hopsie, I would definitely prefer that to personal chit chat. We've just been over to a friend's for socially distanced coffee; it was lovely but I'm genuinely going to go and have a lie down because I feel exhausted and my head's banging. A lot of it with me is anxiety (I have realised due to the lockdown silence meaning I can hone in on what's causing what). I find I practise conversations in my head without realising I'm doing it before we go. When we're there I worry about son; her son also has difficulties so I've one eye on him as well, is he alright with us there, is my son coping alright with him being around, do I need to interact, should I leave them alone and so on. I worry about whether we're overstaying our welcome as well and I think that's partly the autism in me; I wish people would be very direct but most people are polite and wouldn't dream of telling you to bugger off once they've had enough. I feel much more comfortable if I'm with someone who i know will say, "yep, great to see you but you need to leave by 2 because I've got to do x". So a lot of it with me is anxiety and I just need to work on that, I think.
Son has announced he doesn't want to chat to people anymore because he's too busy lol, so I've sort of left that side of things alone now. I do think I'll need to make an effort to get out more (once we all can) to groups where we can interact with regards to interests and topics rather than just chatting. Was the co-ed group set up for the lockdown or did you all meet for that anyway? xx
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I get it, Tupp.
What impresses me so much is how well you know yourself.
Maybe you could forestall anxiety over when to leave by deciding before
you arrive? Or make another rule for yourself--you'll be the second person to leave. That way over-staying isn't possible.
The co-ed group wasn't formed for the lockdown; I'd been doing it monthly for quite a while. It's secular, but the couple who formed it were refugees from my UU church. They just collected some other interesting people they knew from local politics or their condo building or wherever, and a few members brought along others too.
I wonder if something like Meetup is still functioning and if that would be a good place to find good Zoom groups for conversation. At one point I joined my local Skeptics Meetup, and they were a small group I have a feeling you'd really like.
hugs
Hops
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I get it, Tupp.
What impresses me so much is how well you know yourself.
Maybe you could forestall anxiety over when to leave by deciding before
you arrive? Or make another rule for yourself--you'll be the second person to leave. That way over-staying isn't possible.
The co-ed group wasn't formed for the lockdown; I'd been doing it monthly for quite a while. It's secular, but the couple who formed it were refugees from my UU church. They just collected some other interesting people they knew from local politics or their condo building or wherever, and a few members brought along others too.
I wonder if something like Meetup is still functioning and if that would be a good place to find good Zoom groups for conversation. At one point I joined my local Skeptics Meetup, and they were a small group I have a feeling you'd really like.
hugs
Hops
Thanks, Hops. I hadn't heard of MeetUp; I'll have a look in to that. Yes, I think I need to come up with some strategies for managing anxiety and deciding in advance when to go is one of them. The other things was that I drank two cups of coffee when I was there; again, just because that was what she was making and I didn't like to ask for decaff. That can make me a bit jittery so I need to take some with me, I think, just in case.
The other thing that I've been thinking about this afternoon is just friendships in general. I've been so hurt by so many people over the years that it's really put me off investing time and effort into getting to know people and spending time with them. But you do have to, particularly if you want to get past the polite, getting to know you chit chat (which I don't like). The lady I saw today is someone I've chatted with a number of times but it's usually about the kids and day to day stuff. Today she told me some of her personal history and it was so interesting, now I really want to see her again to learn more about that. So I think I need to get my head to a place where I can put in some time and not be focused on whether or not it becomes a friendship. Maybe I will meet someone for coffee numerous times before deciding it's not worth it (or them deciding that about me) and I just need to accept that's the way it is. I also feel I'm quite judgemental in the sense that I see any sign of dysfunction it makes me run. But we've all got our baggage and hang ups and I think I need to trust in my own judgement more to be able to distinguish between run of the mill, having a bad day, it's all a bit much behaviour and real abusive, very messed up stuff. I think I'm so scared of getting hurt again it's really made me put up barriers so if I want to get a better group of people around me in the real world I am going to have to put it all into perspective a bit, I think, and accept that there are risks but that they'll be small and it won't be the end of the world if something doesn't work out xx
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Bravo, Tupp.
I think if you just approach yourself with the same pragmatic, kind advice you always offer here...you'll do just fine.
Pretend you're advising a very nice person, quirks and all, who's asking for ideas on how to cope with her special lineup of needs and hopes. (They just happen to coincide with yours!) Talk to yourself as kindly and realistically as you talk to people here.
Be your own friend and worry less about judging -- yourself or the new people you meet. Maybe try to catch those judgey impulses (which are only about protecting yourself, and you needed them for a while in your life) and whack 'em with a mental flyswatter so they remain bug-splat-sized. An annoyance but not big enough to prevent your enjoying yourself.
I think this will be like all those other moments of true growth that have happened for you. One day something's really hard, you push at it reasonably and kindly, and then one day the very same situation yields, drops its tension, and there you are...calm, capable of responding proportionately and taking healthy care of yourself.
That can work just as well in a public place, in a situation where you're meeting people and figuring out a comfortable way to relax even with the early more surface conversations, and just letting yourself be comfortable. No goal, no big agenda, just being present and being your most relaxed self.
Worst that could happen? An axe murderer chats you up over decaf. More likely the worse thing you'd endure? A little boredom, maybe. But if you just LIGHTLY carry openness to the possibility of good things happening, eventually they always do.
I hope that's good advice. Strain through a good sieve...
Hugs and courage,
Hops
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I'm going to jump back over to my 2020 thread so's not to overwhelm G's conversations with my naval gazing and relationship woes. But essentially, G, yes, good to make the effort with conversations and keep pushing through, I think :) xx
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I will eventually have time to come read here and catch up on people's lives.