Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: lighter on August 15, 2019, 12:31:53 PM
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By Pia Mellody
OK, some surprising things I'm taking away from this book.
Pia Mellody was experiencing huge people pleasing behaviors, and the resulting rage and frustration that goes along with never pleasing everyone, with feeling unappreciated, feeling fearful, feeling inadequate and not doing everything perfectly as a wife, mother, nurse, and social creature living in a world she felt was responsible for her feelings of being good enough.
She felt resentment, and her anger kept building until she couldn't go to meetings at the Meadows Treatment facility for Addictiuon, where she worked. The anger came out of the blue, and scared her, and the people around her. The anger kept growing, and she didn't understand it. She wanted to understand it.
When she sought treatment and help, the professionals just blinked at her, like she had three heads, and was crazy (I'm paraphrasing everything here) she finally realized she'd have to figure it out on her own. She was instructed to figure it out on her own. It was amazing she was IN a treatment facility where she had access to people suffering with many similar symptoms, child abuse in particular.
Through her work at the Meadows she began to understand the term "abuse" was broader than overt physical and sexual abuse. She included intellectual, emotional,and spiritual forms, and includes "any experience in childhood (birth to age 17) that is less than nurturing."
She did much of the work to identify Codependence, it's causes, and boundary work to cure it.
Wow, think about that. It changes the conversation for me, certainly, to think about "abuse" in terms of ANY experience that's less than nurturing. In my own childhood, and as a mother.
I think this book would have been helpful in my twenties, and maybe teens. I wish I could have internalized it when I was in grade school, honestly.
The journey continues.
Lighter
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Tupp:
This resonated with me today, and I wanted to know what you think about Pia's definition of frustration at injustice against us. The injustice robs of our self esteem.
It becomes anger when we can't resolve it. An endless anger around a historical injustice perpetrated against us.
The anger is meant to restore the loss of self esteem, but of course, can't do that.
What say you? Does that make sense for you?
Lighter
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Tupp:
This resonated with me today, and I wanted to know what you think about Pia's definition of frustration at injustice against us. The injustice robs of our self esteem.
It becomes anger when we can't resolve it. An endless anger around a historical injustice perpetrated against us.
The anger is meant to restore the loss of self esteem, but of course, can't do that.
What say you? Does that make sense for you?
Lighter
Lighter, that makes a lot of sense to me, and is something that I struggle with daily. Not just anger (and the anger seems to be reducing in me at the moment) but also frustration, resentment and a sense of being caught up in a game where the rules keep changing and/or has rules that other people don't abide by. I definitely don't feel that the anger restores self esteem, I think for me it probably does the opposite? But yes, I feel there is a lot of injustice, and I feel that we live in a society where deceitful, unethical people are more richly rewarded and, bizarrely (in my eyes) more highly regarded than honest people who just want a quiet, happy life and don't feel the need to destroy things in order to achieve that. But yes, I do think the anger I feel is often because of situations that can never be resolved, no matter what happens now. They're situations that should never have occurred in the first place and I think that makes me angry? Is that how you feel? xx
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Something else just came up for me, Lighter, which I thought I'd share. I was thinking this morning about how difficult I find it to relax and switch off - even when doing yoga or meditating, the hypervigilence means I've got one eye open and I can't really get deep into it. And that made me think about being open to love, and being loved - and I realised I can't be, because love, to me, is always associated with abuse and being hurt. And I think it's another kind of hypervigilence - there's just a barrier there that keeps people at arms length and pushes people away because sooner or later, whoever is in my life does something that hurts me. I find that hard to cope with and it makes me feel angry, because I know a lot of it is old stuff that I can't change and, despite, twenty odd years of therapy and working on it, it still hurts. That makes me feel angry and sad, I guess. Not sure if it connects at all to what you're reading at the minute but thought I would mention it as it came up after I read your post xx
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Tupp: You're right on track, and I have lots to say about your posts.
There's an urgency to get DD17 ready for first day of school next week, see my T, and catch a flight to the island with new sheets for the Q and K bedrooms.... as of yesterday I learned the brand new expensive sheets all have rust stains from the pipes... I think?
So, it's crazy days around here with all the shelves picked over for college dorm rooms AND I'm conflicted about what to pick, and schlep... it's all so difficult. I can't bear to get it wrong, and now we know our pipes must have flecks of rust that flow into the wash machine, so no more doing sheets at the house. HUGE PITA, what next?
Will just have to see, but in the meantime, I'm so identifying with your posts, and have stuff I'm learning from Pia Mellody.... I really really really suggest her videos on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk3a8n1uB1w
It's great to put on while you're doing the wash, or cleaning.
Will post later: )
Lighter
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Oh, Lighter, that is a pain! Hope you get it all sorted. Is the pipe work very old? I guess there are so many things that can cause problems and you don't always find out about them until the problem happens! Hope things get sorted soon and that DD enjoys her first day back xx
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Any more take-aways from the book Lighter? I'm interested what you discover, because I would expect I have some reflexes this way... and I'm trying to spot them, before they become a problem, and do something DIFFERENT.
Big sigh... I'm kinda thinking that means accepting that I'm gonna be vulnerable, will HAVE to trust in the other until I am shown reason NOT TO, and communicate more with those "I" statements that Hops has to remind me of... in the process.
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One thing I learned was Codependents and and are drawn to each other. I recognized my marriage....just overtly felt that truth.
At the same time, I see DF17 in what appears to be a classic N+Codep situation. I sort of think she understands it, but she's indignant just now. Just like I was when someone tried to spell it out for me.
Codependancy is mainstream. Almost everyone suffers with it. It's not just parents of addicts, which is what I thought it was.
It's common, particularly for women. Watch one of the videos, which are old fashioned, SO packed with information.
This woman did some ground-breaking work, and I think we should teach this stuff in grade school and hs!
Tupp:
Yes the pipes are old, this is also an island. Lord knows who goes into the eater, and what pipes it goes through.
Update. I'm packed, and it was a lot of work, but much less fretting. I made choices....didn't have to be perfect. Usually I experience huge angst, and sweating, and struggle, but not this time.
I'm trying to be live in the eye of the storm. Home is inside me.
I ask myself what do I need....or try to more often.
Must catch a plane. Will text more during 12 hour layover.
Lighter
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Went to a Codependents anon meeting or something like that MANY years ago. I only went once. Can't believe that I went when I was so young, I think one therapist used the word codependent on me when I was still in my early 20's that's what prompted me to go.
When I was cleaning out papers I found their manifesto a few days ago actually. I guess i kept it because it seemed like decent advice for anybody but I never look at it, went back in the box again.
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I found Pia Mellody's theories really exciting when I first encountered them in the 70s and still do. I'm glad you've been talking about them, Lighter, as they're coming back to me.
M is codependent and in my past, I was. I find myself taking a lot of steps to resist what I feel is his unconscious pull toward enmeshment. I do have sensitive radar for it, so if I'm not anxious but just ploddingly good at boundaries and retreat, I think we'll be okay.
For example, I stopped taking his late-evening phone calls, as I began to feel I was responsible for soothing him to relax for the night. And I just generally don't need as constant messaging and reconnecting as he does. I'm happy to have my every-other-day-off kind of pattern we've lapsed into.
If we continue as we are, though, I'll need to get used to DAILY companionship, and learning how to do that without codependent behaviors ruling the roost will be a challenge, I think.
Thanks for the reminder to revisit this stuff!
Hops
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Sigh, so would enmeshment be the same as non individuated.
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I think so, G...
the words I ponder when I get the red alert about codependence are things like fusion, merging, that kind of feeling.
Sometimes romance goes that way for those vulnerable to codependency, losing the sense of self. For me, the CoD red alert particularly is triggered by a sense that the other is offloading self-soothing onto me. IOW, do you get appealed to to help them manage overwhelming emotions, positive or negative? Do you suddenly feel that you're tending a child?
I have stronger boundaries and willingness to say No than I had when I was younger, so I'm not terrified of it now. But in the day, I'd say my codependency poisoned my chances for healthy relationships over and over. I'd get so preoccupied with someone else's needs that I'd totally sacrifice my own.
Hops
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I think so, G...
the words I ponder when I get the red alert about codependence are things like fusion, merging, that kind of feeling.
Sometimes romance goes that way for those vulnerable to codependency, losing the sense of self. For me, the CoD red alert particularly is triggered by a sense that the other is offloading self-soothing onto me. IOW, do you get appealed to to help them manage overwhelming emotions, positive or negative? Do you suddenly feel that you're tending a child?
I have stronger boundaries and willingness to say No than I had when I was younger, so I'm not terrified of it now. But in the day, I'd say my codependency poisoned my chances for healthy relationships over and over. I'd get so preoccupied with someone else's needs that I'd totally sacrifice my own.
Hops
That's pretty much the same for me, Hops, all of my relationships over the years, platonic or romantic (and even work related, to a certain extent) have been bound in me doing for someone else. I think it's why I've struggled so much, because once I put a boundary in place the person vanishes and I find that rejection of 'me as I am rather than me who can run around after you' really hard to cope with. I think it can be hard to get a balance - helping others out is an intrinsic part of being human, I feel. But we do need to be careful who we help, how often and what we do - and perhaps it's what we do that's the most important part? As you say, feeling like you need to parent someone is exhausting and there is a line between supporting and enabling, loving closeness and suffocating closeness and all those other things. It's a balancing rope for us all to walk on! We're doing okay though, I think? xx
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Hops you said that very well. And Tupps is right about how hard it is find that line between caring and being empathetic - and being co-dependent instead.
I guess from where I sit at the moment, I don't want to avoid ALL situations where I'm listening to someone else's problem - Buck, for instance - and I'm being asked to care, and even maybe help defuse some intense feelings through conversation or suggest solutions. It helps a great deal, that he does the same for me too when I need it. So that's more give & take, than co-dependency, is what I'm currently thinking.
Now, if it's something that only occurs one way, say me to him and it's happening on almost a daily basis... then, that fits what I think I understand about co-dependency. Especially when that activity seems to be a primary condition for the relationship to exist or continue.
Enmeshment, I think I have to revisit definitions and examples. For the time being, my understanding is that if I no longer have my own space/identity within the relationship... then we could be said to be enmeshed. This happens a good bit in a co-dependent relationship, as I understand it, but it seems to be two separate things altogether. And then, there's the whole "two into one" or creating an "us"... which technically speaking is a lessor degree of enmeshment, but is also the lifeblood of having a relationship... and again there has to be a line somewhere between what's healthy and positive; versus something that's decidedly not good for one or both people.
It sure seems like to avoid co-dependency and associated ills, one almost has let go any romanticism. And that can't possibly be "right".
If all that's clear as mud (not you, mud!) that's because I really question my understanding of definitions, diagnosis of the issue and criteria for same, and whether or not the whole "issue" can be over-simplified and "one size fits all" INaccurately. Perhaps what is co-dependent for one person, isn't for another in a different situation. THEN, I need to know what the difference is... and why.
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It sure seems like to avoid co-dependency and associated ills, one almost has let go any romanticism. And that can't possibly be "right".
Amber, I feel okay with occasional deep declarations of very deep feeling and/or commitment, because the romantic intensity fits that moment. Beyond that though, I prefer what I might call "light romance." I'd like it more often to be on a lighter level because if there's a kind of intense declaration daily, or always throbbing in the background, I hear the CoD sirens going off in me.
M is very prone to constant intensity, hyperbole about his feelings, hyper-romanticism and grandiose extreme declarations. I don't blame him for it (it's natural to his personality) but it's not a good guidepost for me. I tune in to what he does more than what he says, because he's so over-the-top verbally that I almost have to automatically "dilute" some of what he's saying.
I don't want to be the ultimate cosmically star-crossed lovers, though I'm loving having him to love and feeling loved back. We're heading into the more pragmatic planning period of how to merge our lives, and I think that helps too, get us more into reality-love.
He doesn't buy me flowers or do many traditionally romantic things (poor guy tried to buy me pearls, remember?). But he will unexpectedly send me a goofy dog greeting card. I admired his summer shirt (collarless, flax) a lot the other day and he ordered me two in my own size. THAT is amazing, for me. And the meals he cooks? They feels like love! Tonight it was scallops and shrimp with bok choy, broccolini, mushrooms, peppers, onions...loads of vegs because he knows I crave them, and brown rice, same. Plus a peach and rhubard compote. Drooool.
I'm definitely codependent about his cooking.
Fatly,
Hops
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Hopsie, I think you're right about actions speaking louder than words. My last serious partner (long time ago now!) was soooo romantic. He wrote me poems and love letters, bought me flowers, ran me candle lit bubble baths, made me breakfast in bed - all those 'this is what happens in films' type actions. But - he rarely went to work, and therefore rarely earnt any money. Which in turn meant he rarely paid any bills. He didn't deal with any problems, at all, ever, and had basically always managed to get other people to look after him, one way or another. I would see that much, much sooner now. It's very much what people do, rather than what they say (and the flip side of that is my mum, giving one version of a story with her as the victim whilst deliberately creating the drama and the victim role in the first place). It's a good way to sort out what's what, I think.
And Skep, I think 'romance' is a funny thing, because I think films and songs give us a picture of it - similar to what I've written above - but for me, romance is someone who's got my back. They want to hear about my day, they're happy to prop me up a bit when I need it and step back and let me get on with it when I don't. Do you remember a while back I mentioned the acupunture guy, who I have a huge crush on? I was at an appointment at his clinic a while ago (not with him, I was getting something else fixed!) so I was sat in the waiting room reading my book - and he brought me out a cup of tea. Didn't ask if I wanted one, just appeared with it, put it down in front of me and wandered off again. Now that for me is the most romantic gesture in the world - someone making me a cup of tea just makes all my bells ring! But for him of course (and most other people!) it's just putting the kettle on and chucking water in a cup. So I think we have different ideas about romance and I have visions of you and Buck spending romantic evenings looking through seed catalogues and comparing the differentials on tractors :) lol xx
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Hahahahaha! Differentials on tractors - most definitely Tupp! (that was genius brilliant btw)
I think I'm in an introspective phase right now - which also means over-analytical, asking myself loads of questions, asking the universe questions, and the whole creative schmear. Hol & I had a good talk about a "thing" that I had no words for, that I couldn't ignore - but I also couldn't speak about without words. It really helped, after I told her I didn't need mothering - just a friend who knows me really well. LOL. My distress wasn't caused by Buck or anything he said/did. It was not being able to make that thing conscious and verbal. My own crap, in other words.
The connection Buck & I have is incredibly strong and steady; I notice any time he goes "off the air" to do something or deal with something he's not ready to talk to me about. He knows what some of my triggers and reactions are and he tries not be the source of tripping those triggers; protecting me. Having my back. He waits until there's an outcome and then tells me. It's not that he can't trust me; it's that he doesn't want to scare me.
I am the flaming romantic in this partnership; he's more the poet and is extremely sweet - in ways a person wouldn't expect from someone of his background (lifelong warrior) and insightful and able to exist in that realm of emotions and talk about them - better - than one expects from an alpha male. He is way DEEP - intellectually, emotionally, spiritually - in an irresistible combination for me. So the swooning that's going on - is something I need to enjoy - but not let the feet leave the ground either.
Things are moving to a deeper level on the wavelength and emotionally, and Hops, I'm craving that logistical, practical planning conversation. I think I base a lot of my internal security on knowing the differences between what he foresees and what I'm mentally creating. Then fusing them, so everyone knows what to expect more or less, and is happy with the arrangement. So this is a flying by the seat of my pants time. It's exciting, anxious, plain old neurotic, and a bit frazzled. Hopefully we laugh a lot at ourselves. So I'm trying to re-center myself again. And that conversation is definitely premature at the moment. SOP right now... is no strings attached... while we both deal with our individual situations and get free of other obligations in order to even MAKE those decisions about a shared path.
On Topic again, I've noticed a great of drama going on with Buck's process and life right now. I was paying attention to see if it was unavoidable or if it was being used to keep my time, energy and attention focused on him. It's not. He is voluntarily able to be vulnerable about how he feels about what he's going through and why; talk about it, without the tsunami of words I suffer & struggle with... and cut to the chase. It's my fantastical bent, that I have to discipline a bit. And possibly where I am susceptible to building a co-dependency.
If I can reassure myself, that if I am truly as happy as I feel... I don't have to look over my shoulder for someone who's going to make me "pay" for daring to be happy. And I don't have to sabotage it, either, with impatience or imagination or anything else. I'm as safe as I can possibly be right now.
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I understand the anxiety, Amber. I think new love at this stage of life goes through (or has for me) a really scary phase, because as we get older we know there aren't going to be many more connections that feel THIS right. The stakes feel higher because there's less time ahead to do it wrong and assume we'll get to try again one day. I had nearly resigned myself to the rest of my life alone but made that one last stab at online dating, and ... a good thing happened.
You're really struggling hard with overthinking. It's only by thinking well and a ton that you've managed so much in your life, including all the projects and the mountain. You have an amazing capacity to build.
But a relationship sometimes needs some stillness. To just be in the moment, and receive time, season, sun, rain. And let nature come up through it and help you to form it. You don't have to impose the form, you'll figure out the details when the season invites it.
My point is just, asking questions is okay. I think you're most worried about whether you're feeling impulses to leap in and treat your shared future like a project you have to manage, thus you are naturally beginning to think of the background research. While at the same time you're sensing that you're premature on this but are having a really hard time controlling those thoughts or the urge to start asking planning questions. Am I getting warm or way off?
I know it's going to be okay. And I know what the anxiety's like. It sucks. Your brain isn't going to fix it though, relaxing is. Getting more present. All your projects are about future...I think you need some pleasant, relaxing, present-moment focus these days, to keep the balance. Can you conjure up what you'd like to do in the present moment, more things that are not so future-directed? Might help?
Big hugs
Hops
PS And your project management capabilities are probably one of the most attractive things about you, especially to Buck. I ain't dissing it. What I mean is, in some ways relationships can slip into becoming all-absorbing projects, to the point that the actual present interactions and discoveries in their own sun and rain and season can get distorted by the subcontracting and measuring and ordering and all of that. I just think you'll be happier if you make sure that Buck doesn't become like another needy house guest in your head (not that he'd ever want to, but that you might accidentally slip into reacting to him similarly, like your project to analyse and fix). You do have the capacity to analyse to try to help folks. And that has great value (certainly you've helped fix me!) but in reality, you might want to plan a little less, manage a little less, even worry a little less. Give yourself a break and some present-focused pleasures that have nothing to do with Buck. That'll help you stay inside your own skin. [End of advice, half of which is probably way off base.]
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Yep you're getting pretty warm there Hops! Not so far off base either, but I'll have to pay attention and see I'm trending that direction or not for a while.
Meanwhile.... sorry Lighter, for the derail. Back to the regularly scheduled topic...
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No worries, Amber. I think Hopsy reminding you to stay grounded in presently moments brings us right back to the original topic: )
I'm really happy for you. Remember to keep your head where your feet are.
Lighter
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No worries, Amber. I think Hopsy reminding you to stay grounded in presently moments brings us right back to the original topic: )
I'm really happy for you. Remember to keep your head where your feet are.
Lighter
Well, Lighter, I am continuing to work on my co-dependence issues :) I was asked to give someone a lift somewhere - I said no problem (genuinely wasn't a problem, we were going to the same place) but I asked her to come to my house rather than me picking her up, which she did - easy for both of us and I didn't feel resentful at having to leave earlier to fetch her. I spoke to the lady at the group about a couple of things, which she's dealt with, so the meeting this week was good fun, ran smoothly and I didn't feel put upon or caught up in any drama. I have decided to cut son's hours down at college so that he copes better because I'm not willing to put in so much extra work myself trying to keep him healthy. The environment is a lot for him to cope with and it's too many hours, so I'll be telling them next week that we're cutting back. Felt good to make a preventative decision rather than waiting for the situation to become unbearable again.
A friend came to stay unexpectedly earlier in the week. She is currently consumed in drama, I suspect as a way of avoiding some deep seated issues that are coming up as she gets older (have got every T shirt in every colour for that one!). I listenend, empathised (she is a very sweet person who's had a very difficult and unpleasant life) but avoided getting drawn in or offering advice. She's a very independent person and when she stays she doesn't need me to run around after her; she takes herself off out if she fancies it or is happy to sit in and watch TV. She mucks in with cooking and household chores and eats anything you cook so she's an easy house guest and I've told her she's welcome to stay any time she needs to get away - but avoided getting drawn in to the whole thing.
A couple of other friends have got in touch as the summer holidays draw to a close; they are less busy now that summer is ending and wanting to meet up. I'm currently taking the view that I should approach all my friendships now as if they are new and focus on who or what can fit in to my life as I want it to be. I have enjoyed having time to do yoga and Qi Gong over the summer, and to focus on things that need doing at home, working out a new plan for son, walking on the beach and so on. I've enjoyed the quiet and thinking time and have started working on a couple of projects on my own. So although saying no to anyone still makes me feel guilty, I don't feel that I want to see them right now as I really want to concentrate on myself - opposite of co-dependence, I guess? So yes, working hard at it and trying my best :)
How is it going with you? I saw you've updated the island information so will head over there to see what's going on, you might have been too busy with island stuff to think about the other stuff just lately! Hope all is well xx
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No worries, Amber. I think Hopsy reminding you to stay grounded in presently moments brings us right back to the original topic: )
I'm really happy for you. Remember to keep your head where your feet are.
Lighter
Well, Lighter, I am continuing to work on my co-dependence issues :) I was asked to give someone a lift somewhere - I said no problem (genuinely wasn't a problem, we were going to the same place) but I asked her to come to my house rather than me picking her up, which she did - easy for both of us and I didn't feel resentful at having to leave earlier to fetch her. I spoke to the lady at the group about a couple of things, which she's dealt with, so the meeting this week was good fun, ran smoothly and I didn't feel put upon or caught up in any drama. I have decided to cut son's hours down at college so that he copes better because I'm not willing to put in so much extra work myself trying to keep him healthy. The environment is a lot for him to cope with and it's too many hours, so I'll be telling them next week that we're cutting back. Felt good to make a preventative decision rather than waiting for the situation to become unbearable again. That's great news, Tupp. That's self care, being proactive, and looking ahead to avoid frustration, trouble, and hardship, that's what it is. Well done.
A friend came to stay unexpectedly earlier in the week. She is currently consumed in drama, I suspect as a way of avoiding some deep seated issues that are coming up as she gets older (have got every T shirt in every colour for that one!). I listenend, empathised (she is a very sweet person who's had a very difficult and unpleasant life) but avoided getting drawn in or offering advice. She's a very independent person and when she stays she doesn't need me to run around after her; she takes herself off out if she fancies it or is happy to sit in and watch TV. She mucks in with cooking and household chores and eats anything you cook so she's an easy house guest and I've told her she's welcome to stay any time she needs to get away - but avoided getting drawn in to the whole thing. Remembering boundaries, learning how to detach, enforcing boundaries..... that's what keeps us safe. That's what restores balance. It's not easy to do consistently, IME.
It helps to remember we're more help if we manage to remain detached.
A couple of other friends have got in touch as the summer holidays draw to a close; they are less busy now that summer is ending and wanting to meet up. I'm currently taking the view that I should approach all my friendships now as if they are new and focus on who or what can fit in to my life as I want it to be. Perhaps journaling on this, as you go, will be helpful? I have enjoyed having time to do yoga and Qi Gong over the summer, and to focus on things that need doing at home, working out a new plan for son, walking on the beach and so on. I've enjoyed the quiet and thinking time and have started working on a couple of projects on my own. So although saying no to anyone still makes me feel guilty, I don't feel that I want to see them right now as I really want to concentrate on myself - opposite of co-dependence, I guess? So yes, working hard at it and trying my best :) Oh that darned FOG... fear, obligation nad guilt. I think focusing on yourself is the most loving thing you can do for yourself, your son, and your friends, Tupp. You'll strengthen yourself, and that's good for everyone.
How is it going with you? Oh I'm talking myself out of a tree, over and over and over again. I finally just asked myself.... "what would I want Tupp to do in my situation?" and that calmed me down a bit. Took my face off the glass, at least by a few inches.
I don't know what's going to happen with the cottage, but it would be difficult for me to NOT take it personally if, the week I put the finishing touches on it, a hurricane ripped the roof off, or flooded everything into ruin..... if everything turned green, and molded over. I mean..... THAT would be a message from God, at least I'd have a hard time convincing myself it wasn't. And... if someone dies, particularly someone I care about there, I will feel cursed, and there won't be much I can do about that till I see the T again. This is what's going through my head as I watch the storm path.
I saw you've updated the island information so will head over there to see what's going on, you might have been too busy with island stuff to think about the other stuff just lately! Hope all is well xx
I've been scrambling to make sure the hurricane shutters are closed, and it turns out neither the housekeeper or the renter HAVE a shutter key to close the guest house shutters. The only key, I'd given out was to the worker on the other island, and he didn't close the shutters on the guest cottage. Renter found the keys I hid, and used them to close up shutters, but he intends to shelter at the cottage. I'm not going to be OK if he's seriously injured or killed there. I just heard winds are closing in on Bahamas at 150 mph, and the hurricane is slowing down to a crawl.... it might just sit on the island, and devastate it.
I'm uncomfortable, and there's fear, and all kinds of feelings coming up that aren't helpful.
A very aggressive large black bear attacked a dog one neighborhood over... very nearby, while I was gone. The dog is OK, only required 14 stitches, but there's the matter of an aggressive black bear in the area. REALLY?!?!?
I don't seem to be dreaming lately, thank God. I'm sorry your dreams are bothering you, ((Tupp.))
OK.... I'm going to work some on the house, then read some, and meditate some.... and pay attention to what's going on. Try to be curious, and cultivate some detachment. Even if it's not OK... it's OK, right?
Lighter
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Oh Lighter, it's so hard for you being so far away from the beach house (although I'm glad you're far away from the storm!) Although from what you put on the other thread it seems the storm did skim past so hopefully no major damage and nothing too much extra to sort out. Yes, I'd have been miffed if something I'd just finished after months of hard work got blown away a week later! I'm glad it seems to have avoided the worst of it. The grumpy bear doesn't sound quite so good. I don't think even you can deal with that problem! Lol, maybe get Skep over to sort him out ;) Yes, practise saying "What would I tell Tupp to do?" Isn't it funny how we can think more clearly about what we'd say to someone else than we can about doing something ourselves? I hope the fear and discomfort start to lift soon, I hate feeling weighed down by that stuff and find it so hard to do anything about it xx xx
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Bears are pretty simple creatures; and black bears normally are not aggressive.
You can't leave food around outside for them - they love bird feeders, trashcans and compost piles. It's easy enough to take care of your space - but how do you convince all the neighbors? You probably know about mama bears and their cubs; sometimes one doesn't notice the cub until it's too late and you are between mama and baby. Slowly back away - do NOT run. And pray you don't smell like cinnamon, or bacon.
Dogs, sigh. Unfortunately, a bear is going to win out over a dog, almost all the time. But dogs don't know that - and will step up to protect and defend against this big strange creature. This dog sounds lucky.
Fish and Wildlife should be called; they'll tranquilize the bear and relocate it. But chances are, if there's one bear there are more. I wouldn't LIKE to, but I WOULD shoot a bear who was aggressive, especially if one went after one of the dogs or us.
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My town has lots of bear visitors, including in my neighborhood.
Inevitably, some goes on the neighborhood website complaining about their torn up birdfeeder or scattered trashcans...or the risk to their little Fifipoodle.
Just as inevitably, I post a link to the clear info page from the Dept of Wildlife that explains (in the city, probably different where you are):
We do not come tranquilize and remove a bear that comes into your yard.
The only solution is to remove the food sources that attract bears.
No birdseed until they're in hibernation (enjoy birdbaths instead in warm months).
No grease, oils, eggshells or other animal products in compost bins.
No dog food left outdoors.
Keep trash indoors until pickup morning.
Repeating it over and over and over is like whistling in the wind! Drives me nuts. Also, I get irritated at the entitled tone of McMansion owners who huff their annoyance that natural wildlife dare make an appearance on their manicured lawns, which were built in sprawling stupid developments that reduce bear habitat, etc.
Ahhh. A nice rant feels so good!
xxxooo
Hops
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The neighbor claims her dog was attacked as a food source, not bc the bear was scared, or defending itself or looking at food. She swears the bear is aggressive and murderous. Other neighbors are mad at that neighbor claiming she's signed the bear's death warrant.
One neighbor, one street over, sent me a picture of a bear in his trash, and said it was headed our direction. We've seen bears, and they run when I raise my voice at them. I don't think I'm afraid of them, but I do worry the Pug might get injured if she barks and chases them. I also worry the bears might slip into the garage when the door's open, bc that's where we're keeping the trash.
Honestly, these bears grow so much larger than typical bears in our area. I assume it's bc we're rich in garbage, and bears remember where the best cans are located.
I put my trash out hours before the trucks comes. Never overnight. Not everyone can do that. Many neighbors are elderly, and do their best. It is what it is. People continue leaving bird feeders out too.
About the bear attacking the dog. People put all kinds of things in their trash. I wonder if a bear got ahold of a prescription med, along with some food, and lost it's mind. I know a woman got bit in the arse while protecting her little dog from a bear eating her trash not long ago. The one neighbor punched a bear bc it attacked his dog as it barged through the hedge after being sprayed with water... she had cubs. It was a bad situation.
I think we're loud enough that bears will avoid us. That's what I keep telling myself.
Lighter
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I've just finished lesson 8 from the course FROM CODEPENDENT TO INDEPENDENT on the DailyOM site.
I've been slapping myself silly at the end of each with tapping, and I become impatient to finish. There's a meditation to music, very nice, and I go through each sentence, tapping a full round of 8 points, twice. I feel there's value in this, for myself. Not everyone gets tapping, and some feel silly swatting at themselves. I became friends with one of dd'18's Ts, and he tried tapping. He said he felt ridiculous doing it, and that made me wonder about T's ongoing training. Tapping is one of the most effective resources for PTSD. How can any T dismiss somethng that's working better than ANYTHING else? With studies to back it up? Oh well. I think he's lovely, but I do wonder.
I've noticed there's a tightness in my solar plexus that's difficult to unspool. That's OK. I find bringing in the outside space, and incorporating it into the tightness, to add spaciousness, is a very helpful tool.
Some inner child work brought up surprising tears this morning. No terrible memories, but just being there, looking at that young child was very emotional for me. Going to her, speaking to her, picking her up, talking to her, telling her what I wish my parents had done, and letting her know she's safe now, I'll keep her safe going forward, then tapping through the medication at the end was the main place I found tightness, and it was solar plexus, throat, and head..... very tight, very painful. It's better now.
Amber, if your DD is open to an online program, the DailyOM is available for whatever amount of money she wants to give.... I think. There are different amounts, at any rate.
Lighter
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If you'll permit me, I'm going didactic for a moment. As we discuss this, I find myself lost at sea without some concrete definition of the term: Codependence. (Probably indicating I'm way to close to the topic... LOL.) Even tho this is Wikipedia, it's not bad as a starting point.
Responsibility for relationships with others needs to coexist with responsibility to self.
This is the last statement of the entry and kind of sums up all the words before it. Makes it a good rule of thumb, without too much specificity, so that it can be applied as needed.
Cermak proposed the following criteria for this disorder:[10]
Continued investment of self-esteem in the ability to control both oneself and others in the face of serious adverse consequences.
Assumption of responsibility for meeting others' needs to the exclusion of acknowledging one's own.
Anxiety and boundary distortions around intimacy and separation.
Enmeshment in relationships with personality disordered, chemically dependent, other co‐dependent, or impulse‐disordered individuals.
Three or more of the following:
Excessive reliance on denial
Constriction of emotions (with or without dramatic outbursts)
Depression
Hypervigilance
Compulsions
Anxiety
Substance abuse
Has been (or is) the victim of recurrent physical or sexual abuse
Stress related medical illnesses
Has remained in a primary relationship with an active substance abuser for at least two years without seeking outside help.
Codependency has not been included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders; DSM-III-R or later versions.
Not all of the above need to be present for the relational condition to present problems or create patterns of habitual preference for that "comfort zone" of a particular kind of relationship.
Comes from this Wiki entry:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependency
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First thing that strikes me about the list of symptoms and the definition, is that elements of this are consistently present in almost ALL of the things we discuss and have discussed over the years here. Because we are all human, everything we do is a "work in progress". And sometimes we forget the lessons we've already learned, or are too stressed to pay attention and notice what we're doing. That's where having this sounding board really HELPS.
The longer I go through this work, the more convinced I am that "why" doesn't matter so much all the time. Yes, sometimes there is something important we've blocked out and denied that needs to see the light of day and finally get dealt with emotionally. Essentially, I feel that's a form of the grieving process. And myself, I will go to crazy lengths to avoid going through that process yet again. But it has to be done... to make peace with it.
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I haven't visited this thead in a long time and wanted to update.
Big changes I notice are
i have decreasing need or compulstion to fix or otherwise DO things for other people. Sometimes I still knee jerk offer to help my girls with something, particularly if they're expressing any upset or frustration.....but on reflection see and understand how everyone is served better if I trust them to handle things for themselves and allow them to get on with it.
Recently I experienced what I consideered very healthy feelings of NOT wanting to jump in and do do do or help my recently widowed friend. She's used to me jumping in, suggesting projects and pushing till they're complete or close to done.... it's always been my way, but not this trip, so much.
I did fix the laundry problems, bc I had to...... just can't let sour laundry go. No big deal..... she let me wihtout too much struggle,. but I think it set the tone for her expectation I'd be doing doing doing and pushing to DO other things.... and I just wanted to sit there, eat mommy food she cooked and be still in her space...... laugh with her.... cry with her, which we did, but my spirit felt very serene in a chair, it really did.
So this is my take away......
the things I felt would improve her life by a lot....... I jumped in and helped out on. This included the laundry problems, identifying space on her porch for comfortable furniture on which she and perhaps I will nap..... shopping for that furniture all over Atlanta, which lead to her selecting furniture on her own after I left,which was great.
I wanted to see the venue she was looking at for the memorial service.... it was lovely and felt just right.
But I didn' want to do much of anything else, besides go through photos, talk about our shared memories and perhaps the addition of party lights on her deck, which I'd be happy to help hang.
I will say this...... when I got there she'd been busy ordering and receiving a lot of new furniture in anticipation of hosting family for the Memorial service. I took the tour, but was in no mood to lift anything heavy or do math or solve traffic flow issues. I did want to remove some of the furniture, and we moved some things around... but small things and the trip was great. I felt happy and the familiar smell of Spring in Atlanta took me right back to 2004 and 2005 Easter egg hunt memories with the girls and visits with Auntie P and how it felt to be blissfully ignorant of what my ASPD H was and was doing..... I was very happy raising our children alone. ASPD H being gone was a good thing and it all came back... all felt lovely...... I awnted to plant a tomato garden again and roll around in it with the girls when they were 2 and 4. There were zero negative memories popping up. I felt 40 and free and happy again.... like traveling back in time. Just lovely.
So, what's left when co dependent habits fade or go away? Space. It gets filled with something else, in this case. I guess some relationships end, as Tupp talked about.
I used to be very uncomfortable if I wasn't "helping" others....just generally in public or at social gatherings. I was always helping to set up or cook or clean up and that was something I'm not sure I would have given up if asked. I remember saying that out loud, to myself and a couple other people. It was frustrating... I knew it wasn't good ro right,but it was the way it was. LOTS of anxiety around doing anything else, I'll tell you that. NOW..... that's changed and there's space for noticing what's there now. I visit with friends and let them host without my intervention or jumping in or cleaning eveerything up and it feels really nice to BE nurtured and cared for in that way.
I relaxed into allowing others to do that, not just snap it all up for myself..... and then it was just different... all changed when I wasn't looking or working on it.
While the girls were sick with Covid, my Moss friend came by with a little plant and the sweetest card. She dropped it and ran, but we've spoken since and caught up.... talked about getting to gether..... reassured each other in ways only we can reassure each other, bc were so similar.... just very reciprocal and important to us both. I look forward to vistiing them again soon..... her dh cooks and we catch up....spend time in her art studio..... anything we do together is happy and we all join in. I don't have many frineds like that.
My firiend in the hospital used to talk at me a lot. He would date the same types of women,married, and tell the same stories over and over and I finally told him he could talk to me about this last gf when she got a divorce. Oddly,they're still together, even though she's still married...... whatever that story.....it's working out.
The last time I talked to him he was driving to Florida and wanted to talk about the current gf's refusal to buy into his qanon nonsense,which was not something I was going to back him up on. I cut to the chase and told him.....
::wincing::.
I told him is need to always be right in his relationships with women was "tedious." I feel a good bit of discomfort reading that or thinking about it. ALL the times I listened to him, and validated him and this ONE time I'm honest and it's maybe the last thing I said to him.
Oh well..... an honest friend has value too, even if the listener isn't in a place to appreciate the honesty. I don't regret being honest,bc he's smart and needs to be aware of the patterns he's repeating in his life so he has a chance to grow through them and beyond.
They began lowering his temperature this morning. I'm told he tried to take the covers off and his eyes opened....not that they blinked or saw anything, just opened. I'll try to see him next week before leaving again...no matter what happens. He was a good friend to me while we were raising children together...his dd was my oldest ddL's best friend. It wasn't reciprocal,but I was grateful to have help and company and fellowship.... he went on school trips and I took his dd when he had to be away and handled the classroom stuff... sort of tag teamed and made sure we were ok and the kids were OK. But not reciprocal and he knew it. He asked if it was and I lied and said it was,but it wasn't. I'm trying to figure out if my recent honesty was about evening things up OR being helpful OR putting a boundary up bc it was past time. I think it was the latter 2 and I get to have boundaries.
I'm sure I'm able to speak with more compassion and less reactivity now. I wish I'd been able to when I chose the word tedious,but it really was dead on how it felt. I'm very happy to hear truth, even when it's not what I want to hear. I have to remember not everyone wants to hear the truth and everyone deserves compassion.....
even me.
Lighter