Relationship/s

[Hopalong]

Thanks, ((((((Amber)))))))).
I loved every word of your post.

I think you've doomed me, as I'm now addicted to Outlander.
Who KNEW? (It finally came to Netflix.)
Now that I am reminded of parallel universes (with hot Scots), this one is much less scary.
I'm connecting with my irrational TRUST too.
Because I don't think rationality is all there is.

Thanks, you.

And ((((Tupp))), I think I'm on the right page after all.
I think house-hunting right now is not sensible.
M's just lost a huge hunk more, and shoving ahead with a buy and a move would be nuts.
We're okay.

I'm mostly ready to hunker down.
I could stay in my house for a month or two without starving.
Didn't stock up a TON but have enough to stave off fear.

Staying home is cozy.
I'm not ready to go move in temporarily to do it with M (he tends to go out almost daily)...but we're in good touch.

His thoughts are just do scholarship; isolation will be okay.
Mine are Clean Up the ****ing House; isolation will be okay.

I think there's a chance folks will rediscover the delights of the telephone.

For some reason I'm just a lot calmer now.

love y'all,
Hops

[lighter]

Hops:

I'm so with you regarding cleaning up/out the house... I'm ready to fill the truck over and over and hit the GOODWILL.  I have zero desire to have a garage sale.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Time for an update, I figure.

Had dinner at M's the other evening. We went for a walk and then ate on his deck. I only went indoors to pee and wiped down everything I'd touched with a disinfectant wipe. Easy. Pooch was more excited to see him than I was! (M and I'd had a nice walk and talk date a week ago, winding up in my back yard.)

Having settled back into my usual solitude for the last three weeks (except for very nice breaks of outdoor socializing)...I've had time and focus to think more about this relationship. I'm still in it, not quitting so far, and we're doing therapy which is great anyway.

But.

I've started to think that one reason M was so easy for me to get involved with was that his sparkly, entertaining, show-offy, demanding, conversation domination and self-absorbed incessantness is very like my Nmother's. I was raised and trained to placate, please and cope with that kind of behavior. I dread labeling it, but the Nword is in my head.

I've been reflecting on a lot of stuff about him that isn't coming up feeling good. There's still the fun and charming and at times generous stuff. I will talk about that again I'm sure. But right now, I'm allowing myself to look pretty plainly at things I seriously dislike. And ponder what that may mean. NOT making a decision right now; just feeling wary of plunging farther or faster down the road. And that's a good thing. In my life, rushed romance and premature commitments have always, always backfired.

I dislike it when M is passive-aggressive. Example: I've explained to him at least six times that although I understand that it's a courteous ritual he was raised with, I do not want him to "top off" or automatically refill my wineglass. If I decide I want more, I prefer to pour it myself. That's because wine tempts me, I know when I should stop, and M is more likely to want to carry on beyond my own limit. (And perhaps he enjoys treating me as a "drinking buddy.") So, at dinner, at one point he comes up behind me and SWIFTLY refills my glass. I didn't react immediately as I should have (it's tiring to be on max-reflex) so didn't object.

But I resented it. A small thing maybe, but another example of him deliberately marching over a boundary I'd set very clearly. It's as though having shared a vulnerability with him (I can be tempted to have more wine than I really should) -- that he took advantage of it.

Another. I've asked him not to call me after 9pm because I have severe insomnia and he tends to offload a lot of dire, anxious or forbidding or tragic comments about news or this or that, and then he's all sleepy and content, and I'm riled up from the exchange and can't sleep. A few nights back he calls me at 1030pm, yakking on in a similar vein. Same thing. He wants the comfort of my voice at bedtime and I absolutely resent that expectation. I'm not his mommy, it's deleterious for me, and I'd like him to respect my boundary.

The upshot is that even though I have a couple of close friends with whom I have the understanding that we are to each other a person you could call in an emergency any time of the day or night, I have to leave the ringer off all night because I cannot trust M to respect my wishes.

I withdrew today, quietly, after emailing him (and explaining nicely on the phone) that I just need to retreat and think. So just now I get an email from him full of a dire local projection about the virus, and he goes through this weird explanation of how he didn't know if he should tell me about it or not but felt that he "must" -- and it's another evening scary-news report. So he still manages to do that thing...even not on the phone. Upsets me either way.

The reason this kind of excuse-to-do-what-I-want-no-matter-what-you've-told-me-about-your-needs upsets me and riles me up is that I feel disrespected and overruled. He has done it before in many ways and I'm starting to just feel fed up. Partly virus irritability, but real.

Is as though in his cute, subtle, clever ways....he's passively needling me, poking at vulnerabilities, poke poke poke.

I've settled into my solitude more lately and he senses it. So we may just go through another round of this stuff. Which I loathe. I just don't want to have to battle my partner. There are men out there who will not needle, passive-aggress, and be infantile sometimes.

He wrote me the other night and closed his email (flattery) with a challenge:
"Will you keep being my conversation companion forever? (Answer now, with no equivocation!). [The last was a demand.]

I wrote back, nicely to the first part. Then wrote, "We can talk about your ultimate questions, but not on email." He wrote back, "We will TALK on Thursday!" I just didn't like his tone.

That's about it. I'm just weary of him right now. Doesn't mean I can't recover or we can't. But I am not enjoying comfort or support and feel it's mostly, almost all the time, ALL about him. I'm starting to toy with thoughts about other old fish in the sea, or even, given the pandemic...is it really going to be worth it to tie myself long-term to someone this immature.

Sigh. Thanks for listening.

Hugs to all,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Left off a big piece that stuck in my chest.
We were talking about my D with the T (which was extremely difficult for me). M described me to the T as "so hyper-sensitive" about her and said that at one point I was "spiraling...". He was looking so innocent but I felt it was gaslighting.

I'm going to address this in our next session. What sent a chill for me was that he often described his ex-wife as "crazy." That, in my understanding, is a CLASSIC way that some men denigrate women for having powerful emotions or getting upset. I intend to spell out that I do not accept that framing about me and will not let it pass.

I am BOTH sensitive and strong. I do have powerful emotions on some subjects, and have to set boundaries when someone is insensitive about that loss, but I am not hysterical nor irrational. I have never yelled or thrown anything or done anything unhinged whatsoever, even when talking about the most painful subject in my life.

So to have him begin "narrating me" to our therapist that way created a dark spot in my feelings for him.

I think the bottom line is, I don't fully trust him emotionally. On the surface he is mostly charming. In his core he is a decent person. But he's developed behavioral habits because of lack of insight...that concern me.

[Twoapenny]

Aw, Hops, I really understand that 'crazy' label.  It's a very destabilising and it demeans very real and relevant feelings and experiences.  I've had it thrown at me many times when I've stood up for my son.  We all have things we are sensitive about and when it comes to our children (big or small) of course we are sensitive, we love them and that pain with you D is so intense you would need to be made of stone not to feel it.  But I agree, him labelling it that way is inappropriate and a real shame, I think, that he's making that your problem instead of perhaps looking at his own need to poke around in that area when you've clearly explained to him not to.

And yes, it chimes with the other things you've said about him not respecting your boundaries, calling late in the evening to fill your head so he can empty his own and so on.  I'm sorry.  I think these crisis times do give us time to reflect and think (and sometimes remind us how much we like our own company as well).  I'm glad you're seeing it even though it's painful to see.  It's very easy to gloss over the less than pleasant bits when so many other things work well but you always pull the drawer out and check underneath it.  I really admire you for that.  I'm glad you feel able to discuss it with T next time you go in.  Is this still the nice T that has been so helpful so far? xx

[sKePTiKal]

Ya know Hops, I think often I overlook those small things... BECAUSE, instead of my guy always needing me to provide that emotional security - he's offering it to me. And it's VERY different from what I'm used to.

"Security" meaning I can trust him not to call so late my sleep is messed up; not ordering me around as if I'm chattel... boundaries/routines respected and worked with. Mike did pretty well with that, even if he WAS exceptionally needy - he wasn't selfish; Buck is better. He pays attention to my routines and is very considerate.

It sounds like you're describing the balance of emotional support given/asked for within the circle of the two of you. And something just isn't working... after a year, and even T. It's just me, but if after that much time - it's still the very same thing bugging you - it's something that isn't going to change; it'll always be there. Maybe you can learn to love that too... maybe you just can't.

The high priestess, the exalted (and humble!) Amber gives you permission to learn to live with his habits, or perhaps expand your horizons... or even do nothing for a little bit... including perhaps, restating your boundaries and standing firm without worrying about HIS feelings in reaction to that.

:insert magic wand sparkles:

[lighter]

::stepping into Amber's magic sparkle dust::.

I think Amber's right.

This is going to be about you, Hops, changing how you view M's behaviors rather than M learning to change all the things pinging off warning bells and reminding you of your mother's behaviors....  "the law of contagion"... our minds using context to connect things and provide meaning through our amygdala.  M's doomed if your brain interprets his behaviors with all reactivity your mother's behaviors built through the years, IMO.

This, for me, ties into a video I watched recently about what global THING everyone on the planet fears.  I won't spoil it for you, but it ties into this thread.... at least in my Lighter view of things.  Think Pavlov's dogs here.  Here's the link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Vmwsg8Eabo

I wish I'd had access EMDR sessions throughout my life.  To see what's in front of me, with clarity, would have been a priceless gift. 

Having access to that gift feels like magic wand sparkles to me.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Thank you, Tupp. Very much.
I really appreciate your understanding my sensitivity to how he uses words...it just disturbed me. If M is a true N, then oh so "reasonably" laying down labels and descriptions that are sabotage-y like that, is classic. One reason it really got to me, how he began describing me to the T last time, was it reminded me of when I was in the ER after the stroke, still able to communicate although haltingly, M was telling my friend that I didn't know what I wanted because I was "very confused." Using his wise-professor voice and authoritative persona. Those things have gaslight written all over them, in my book. And again, it's a question of how do I feel about him when I am vulnerable? Do I really feel safe being vulnerable around M?

There is no more vulnerable subject in my life than my D. Talking about her in his presence I am filled with fear and dread of being manipulated. So...I think the truth is, I'll need to give up all hope of him helping her as he had often trumpeted he was so eager to do. I think he simply can't do it without angling for psychological advantage for himself in the process. If I say, okay, that's not happening, subject closed again, I think that his choice will fester in me as a power move ("I don't want to jump through Hops' hoops to do that"--meaning when I gave him the simple steps that would be okay with me for him donating to her fundraiser) that ultimately has denied her help. Right now, she's desperate again online, begging for money for meds. I shouldn't have looked.

And I'm resenting him for it. He has bragged to me recently how wonderful it feels to send big checks to his sons. It just seems colossally insensitive to me, given that he knows about D and at least at one time, was boasting about how he wanted to help her. This is where money and entitlement and power issues (and oh Lord, possibly N-ism) intersect. My fiercely awake self would prefer to die poor but proud, rather than cope with that. Then my scared self wakes up and says, fool! You'd be SAFE if you commit to him for life! This whole renewed discussion we broached with the joint-T last week has brought back up the question in me, safe maybe, but at what cost?

Then again, I am aware that although I've been full of cheer and hope and positivity as best I can, yesterday the virus and what is happening in various places really got to me for the first time. So I'm always ready to doubt myself, and ask...is this just existential fear, and am I being fair to M? Then I went and read another article on Nism in Psychology Today and being honest with myself, he fit 5 out of 7 things described to a T.

That has set off a whole new debate with myself about my capacity to be intentional and willing to risk life alone again, if M is indeed an N. It's a tough call and I don't want to decide immediately. Especially if "virus stress" has distorted my perceptions.

I'm going to talk with my personal T today about all this, in an online session. She's very kind and smart and supportive. I think she's pretty skeptical about M. What she said most recently about him was that she feels I've been very very patient with him and in her view I've allowed him to get away with a lot, because I'm so focused on his needs, understanding and empathizing with him, etc.

It's people who are deeply fair, deeply honest and so forth, plus emotionally responsive, who often get sucked into the backwash with Ns, I believe. I would hate to get back into that old cycle as I spent much of my life coping with my Nmother's disability and later my Daughter's. But I'm older and scareder and am tempted by security. Right now I'm confused and scared and ambivalent.

Maybe it's just a cycle, triggered by the pandemic, and maybe it'll be okay, and I'll be back on describing how absolutely wonderful and delightful M has just become again. Very possible.

Thanks much again.

Hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

Amber, thank you for this:

if after that much time - it's still the very same thing bugging you - it's something that isn't going to change; it'll always be there. Maybe you can learn to love that too... maybe you just can't.

It's just a succinct, reality-based description of where I am. This is exactly what I need to sit with...perhaps more calmly than I've done for the last day and evening! I do have a T, I do have friends, I do have you guys. I don't need to assume I will fall apart.

And this too:

permission to learn to live with his habits, or perhaps expand your horizons... or even do nothing for a little bit... including perhaps, restating your boundaries and standing firm without worrying about HIS feelings in reaction to that.

These really are my choices. Thanks for stating them so clearly. It really helps.

Mega hugs,
Hops

[Hopalong]

I hear you, Lighter:

This is going to be about you, Hops, changing how you view M's behaviors rather than M learning to change all the things pinging off warning bells

There's a little bit of unreality in that for me, though. It'll take some time and some more months of single-T and joint-T sessions, probably. But what I am asking my wisest inner self (hellloooo! please come back sooooon!) is this: If M's behaviors ARE warning bells of the personality disorder I was raised to be drawn to and most dread, then perhaps I should NOT change how I view his behaviors.

If I am over-reacting (layering it over Nmother trauma memories as you astutely mention) then you are right. My goal then would be to de-escalate it and remove its "charge." In my own T work and inner work. So I can stay with M.

It's not really a binary choice. My challenge, I believe, would be to find out how deeply and how much his N-ish (I am VERY confident using that adjective, with the "ish") behavior distresses me because of its emotional impact on me. Are we truly a good fit?

If it bothers me only a little now and then, and I should look at it with fond benevolence--oh, the little Nboy is acting out, I don't have to react...then the answer's pretty easy. Most of the time I enjoy his company, even though I find him extremely self absorbed. Maidenly [edit: Maddeningly! I HATE AUTOCORRECT! LOL!] , at times.

If it bothers me so much it shakes me to the core and keeps me awake all night (has quite a few times), maybe I do have to react proactively in my own self-interest. When I feel strong I can fight for myself. Then there are times I wish I didn't HAVE to be so strong, to be in this relationship. I'd like to feel safe just being however I feel, with him.

My goal isn't so much to be right or in control of everything, as it is to be wise. One friend I've talked about it with sees how much I do NOT want to live on guard, always strategizing my emotional safety, tense about defending boundaries he ignores, and ever-ready to detour around his passive-aggressive stuff during times of tension. There are simply times, particularly as I age, when I would be quite vulnerable to his attitudes and his choices. And I want to be wise around whether M is someone I can trust with my vulnerability long-term.

So far, even after a year and a month, I'm not sure. But it ain't over. I am pretty convinced this is not about the pandemic, but sure as hell is converging with that fear too.

Just called him as he'd asked. This usually happens when I place the call. He answers hello? And immediately, instantly, launches into a long monologue of whatever he's stored up. It can go on nonstop for 10-15 minutes. Eventually, he remembers to ask about me. I am not sure how interested he actually is, but he manages that courtesy better than he used to.

What I remember, growing up with them-thar fancy telephones...was an etiquette that, when someone calls YOU, you say Hello, and then how are you? Or, what's going on? Or such. IOW, a person calls someone to speak to them. With M, the unwritten rule is, someone calls me so I can speak to THEM, and he instantly launches into it. So he speaks first and most, and I get to tag on my own story sometimes, and shorter.

Oh, so familiar. You're right about that!

Hugs
Hops

PS She also said something that surprised me: that the widespread belief that people who are Ns or have many N-behaviors never ever change, is based on old research. That was an optimistic thought. NOT (hah) that M would have a wholesale personality transplant (I wouldn't want that anyway) but that she doesn't automatically assume he could never change any of his most triggering behaviors toward me. He is highly motivated to make our relationship last (even more than I am, because I am willing to leave). And I think she was suggesting that it's perhaps more useful to think about him in terms of him being profoundly insecure, rather than fixate on the N term. (She mentioned his deep insecurity. Not that I can't ever use the N ism vocabulary, but that other language for what he does is insecurity. I will find out if he can practice empathy, at least enough of it, with me.)

The couples-T, the Sikh, is kind enough to come to my back yard tomorrow, to do an outdoor session with us on my private back patio, since M has declared he feels "unsafe" going into the office building. I told her I had wondered whether it was really the virus he was scared of, or was it continuing a challenging conversation we had last time. She instantly said she thought it was the latter. I do too, but since M had already met with me in my back yard, and I assured him he would always be six feet away from the T, and he would be touching nothing the T had touched, he was safe. I think he has no excuse to wiggle out of it, so he's coming.

[Hopalong]

Just unloaded it all with my own T, with an online session (which I find surprisingly intimate, because our faces are closer....works really well for me). She is so supportive. Her main message was that she trusts me, that I'm seeing clearly and asking myself the right questions, and describing behaviors (his and mine) accurately.

I told her I am trying to figure out if I'm judging him as though through a screen or ghost of my mother, or whether I can see the good and sweet and especially motivated sides of him, and see him as LESS N-ish than she was.

She followed all of it, which is great. She said she will always offer any insights she feels might help, but that for now what she feels is more than labeling or diagnosing as much as she is in supporting me in experiencing and telling my own story, which she responds to as "a lot" but also meaningful and worth deep attention. She expresses confidence that I will find resolution that is right for me; she doesn't tell me what that resolution will be.

That makes sense to me, and I do feel very supported.

The difference between the T and you guys is that you guys don't get paid. And that's totally UNFAIR. Because the thinking and insights and support you so generously give me here are worth a truckload of face masks.

Thanks from the heart,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Aw, Hops.  It's tough.  There's such a delicate balance, I think, between no relationship being perfect, we all have to give and take, compromise is inevitable, and so on, and then that often subtle descent into what might become, at best, an unhappy relationship and, at worst, something bordering on abusive (at least from an emotional point of view).  My thoughts, for you to take or leave as you see fit, of course:

I do get your points about the difficulty M seems to have with respecting your boundaries (many different examples).  I also see that he's undertaken the therapy and does seem to be trying to work on himself.  But then when you mention that he is topping up your wine glass (when you've asked him not to), calling you late in the evening (when you've asked him not to), calling you hyper-sensitive about your D (I see that as his issue rather than yours.  You are, understandably, in a very difficult situation when it comes to your D and all you asked of him was to respect that you find it very painful to talk about and so not to delve too deeply in to that.  That's very healthy, on your part, and it's a shame that he doesn't see it in that way).  I feel the same way that Skep does - if he's still doing it, maybe it will just always be how he is.  Deeply ingrained behaviour that he can't quite shake off.  Old habits and all that.

I did notice you mentioned him 'bragging' about the cheques he sends to his sons, rather than him just mentioning it.  I thought the fact that he comes across as bragging was quite telling.  I understand your need or desire for a safe and comfortable retirement and I truly do get that.  Although I'm younger than you, I have no pension, savings or capital and am unlikely to achieve any of those things before retirement age without a lottery win or a best selling novel (written whilst I'm asleep by fairies or something).  So I completely, completely understand the worry of being alone and fairly skint.  I also worry that you might end up not being emotionally safe if your fears about M do turn out to be right, and also if even the fact that he does have a good income would work well for you?  You've mentioned him not seeming to be willing to help D out now (and I'm sorry she's struggling again.  It's heartbreaking that she goes through this and only natural that you peek from time to time).  You also had the house 'thing' the other week where he just said no when he could have said yes.  And I'm thinking about the holiday where you ended up in the jungle house with him being pretty difficult?  So I'm not sure that even financial safety is something you could be sure of?  It sounds as if it might be a source of difficulty as things go along.

I do think that at times like this - with scary viruses and knowing your D is not doing too well again - we can ramp up fears and anxieties and they become bigger than they would be without the other things going on.  But I also think that, when we go through tough times, the people in our lives should be a port in the storm in those situations - a voice of calm, some reassurance, some practical support, etc - and not another situation we have to deal with.  It does trouble me that you're not currently thinking "I'm so glad I've got M while the world is crumbling around us" and instead you're thinking, "I must switch my phone off so he doesn't rile me up so much I can't get to sleep".

I don't think you've over-reacted to any of the things that have happened - if anything I agree with your T that you've been very patient and very committed to talking, reaching agreements, stating your boundaries and so on.  I don't think it matters really whether M is an N or if you are over responding to what he does because I think we've all got our 'things' we carry with us.  But it does matter whether or not you are a good fit and I agree with your friend that you don't want to have to be on your guard and to keep defending your boundaries.  I find that 'being talked at for fifteen minutes' thing exhausting and to be honest I avoid people who do that now.  It's just too tiring and I do think it's about them, because you can't get a word in.  I used to have a friend (I don't really talk to her anymore) who could talk for an hour like that - literally just deliver a monologue.  I used to think I could just put the phone on the side and go and have a bath and she wouldn't know.  It's tiring.

What I think is really, really, really good is that you don't have to make any decisions one way or another for months yet, Hopsie, even years if need be.  There is no reason for you not to carry on seeing him (when you want to), taking time out (if you want), seeing couples T, speaking to your own T, and so on, for really as long as you need.  I do think there will come a point when you do just know.  Something inside figures it out while our brains run around, I think.  But it is very hard and I do feel for you.  I would love you to meet a male version of yourself that you could just be with and that be that.  Maybe Buck had a brother?   Lol I hope the T session was helpful and gave you some clarity xx

[Twoapenny]

And I think you posted the T update as I was writing I hope it went well and it looks like it did!  Lol xx

[Hopalong]

It did, Tupp.

Thanks so much again for all the reassurance and understanding. I felt very heard.

And I'm drained but feel ready for the Sikh's visit here tomorrow.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Hang in there Hops!

It's my opinion, that you deserve to have a relationship that you feel - even when vulnerable - safe in. Maybe there's a way for M to hear that and then work backwards to how specific things he does causes you concern about that.