Relationship/s

[CB123]

Hops,

How long have you had a relationship with M?  How long had you been together when you started going to the T?

CB

[Hopalong]

Hi CB,
We met a year and three months ago.
We've been in couples-T for about five months.
Took quite a while to begin working harder in those sessions, I think.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

BTW, if I haven't said so clearly.....THANK YOU, alla-y'all, for asking me questions and offering ideas/insights about this Relationship stuff for me.

It really, really helps me think and grow and challenge (myself and M).

I'm uber-grateful.

Hops

PS I have asked myself a couple of times lately if noticing and admitting M's narcissistic traits (not diagnosing) feels like.... I give up, I am SO well trained to adapt to N-ish personalities that it almost feels like fate that I'd be involved with another one.

That said, M is sweet. He can be funny and kind. He definitely wants to be connected to me, wants to commit, wants my lifetime companionship. (Both suffocating AND security-feeling.) Yes, he is quite self-absorbed, but he's also been motivated to embark on therapy with me just because I conveyed that it was needed. Not every man in his 70s would say Yes and hang in so willingly. Plus, I never experience resentment or blowback from M after I bring up something unpleasant-for-him in counseling. If anything he seems more loving and happy afterward.

And another thing is, I'm seeing him again tonight and looking forward to it. We have a kind of silliness we do together that is truly fun and happy. And as we get to know each other more, I'm less reactive. We'll see....but I was thinking I'd been painting a pretty harsh and one-sided picture of him here. He deserves fairness.

[CB123]

Hops,
Have you ever gone to the beginning of this thread and read everything that you posted and the things that came up and when they came up?

I wasnt on the board yet when you started the thread, so I had to do that (as well as threads for Tupp, Lighter and Skep) in order to have any idea what everyone was doing these days. When you read it all at once, it has a flow to it, that is probably the whole reason why all of us should keep journals anyway.

Wishing you peace.

CB

[Hopalong]

Good idea, CB, thanks.
I started and got to page 7....wow.
That's a lotta ink on a little-over-a-year relationship!

Given it's the first serious one in decades, guess it's been worth the effort.

But however it turns out, I'm still learning and always will be (I hope).

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

CB,
Thank you so much for suggesting that. Just finished and it took HOURS.

One thing you said at one point really sticks: You began to realize that you spent an inordinate amount of energy analysing and understanding him, believing if you did, things would become different. And how you feel about that, looking back. Wishing you had that time back.

This whole thread was an illustration to me of that same thing. I've learned good stuff, useful insights, about myself too, but I've spent a deep amount of energy learning HIM.

All in all, re-reading the thread made me feel more confident and calm. I'm not sure why, other than the amazing insights and support that came in so reliably and helpfully and amazingly from y'all here....but maybe it's that everyone on the board reminds me of my capability and strength, especially when I forget.

I just feel better. When I need to draw a boundary or challenge M, I can do that. When I need to get my nose off the pebbles (understood that much better on second reading, Lighter) I think I can do that.

And now there is a truly amazing Sikh who is carrying part of the load. And that is a criterion for continuing. Incredible insight and perspective.

So maybe I need to remember that slooooooooow is the point. Remembering I ALWAYS have my own-home, own-timetable, own-priorities to respect and listen to.

No matter how antic M becomes from his own anxiety, my anxiety is my own job. My pace is my own challenge. My lost productivity is my own priority.

My own T listened to me yesterday until I hit an insight for myself. The common denominator in practically everything I've struggled with (before and during M) can be summed up in one word: NEGLECT.

Now I know where I have to grow. We connected self-neglect to all of it: home care, exercise, physical health, relationship boundaries, assertiveness, writing my Real Stuff (my true purpose) and so on. It ALL fits.

And she connected the difference between beating myself up when I do the neglect (oh you stupid ADD old woman, or, as I told my previous T for YEARS: "I have lost interest in my own life") -- and which voice in my head I am willing to listen to, in order to heal and progress. I've got two choices:

--the harsh, critical-parent voice that shames me for what I have not done
--the kind, loving voice that in a friendly, coaxing way encourages me to tackle the things I feel overwhelmed by, one at a time

I didn't realize how profoundly I'd chosen Evil Voice.
It was wonderful to remember I DO have another (Inner Friend Voice).

It really is all about loving yourself. SO hard to get that lesson all the way inside. But I realized it really is the answer to everything. Health, home, relationship, creativity, everything. If I start with that friendly loving attitude to myself no matter what I'm doing/not doing, everything healthier in me responds.

Thanks for much for that suggestion -- it was very illuminating.

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Oh wow, Hops, that's huge.  How amazing that you've come to that realisation.  There's a school of thought that people come into your life to teach you different things and that kind of struck me as I read your post - that quite unknowingly, all of the work and time spent with M has brought you to realising you need to love and be kinder to yourself - as compassionate and caring with you as you are with M and with all of us on here (and others in your world, I'm sure).  A good reminder for all of us as well, I think.  I'm so happy that realisation has settled in with you now xx xx

[Hopalong]

Thanks, ((((Tupp)))).

It's like that old sarcastic saying: You can dish it out, but you can't take it.

I realize one can apply that to love, too--if I find it easier to love others than myself. That's actually not a saintly thing to brag about, it's an unhealthy thing that holds me back.

I felt like I'd been shot out of a cannon today, the relief was so deep. Actually dealt with a whole lot of domestic stuff and it felt good. Back and knee aren't very happy at the mo' but the rest of me is!

Hugs
Hops

[CB123]

Hops,

Love that burst of energy you get when something inside breaks loose! I see you taking care of yourself by tackling something that matters to you.

I REALLY GET the Evil Voice. I would probably characterize it as a constant murmur of disapproval. It's hard to conquer (I haven't), and I wonder if we look for someone to counteract it but are not too surprised when they start being a stand in for it. In a way, having a person we can try to please, or even use as an excuse for why we don't pursue our own dreams, feels more manageable? I have wondered that a lot. I have done that a lot.

CB

[Hopalong]

I think that's a big insight, CB.

Focusing on M (to whom I just wrote a LONG email explaining "forced-teaching" and how it may undermine our relationship) ... is only productive to the extent that it helps me evaluate (based on his response or lack of) how real and plausible this relationship might be for ME in the long term. No emergency, but a sense I'm gettin' real with him, more real with myself too.

And then it freed me up. Now I'm ready to get going and get more done today, me and my Friend (inner friend). And that will bring me happiness regardless of what's happening with the relationship.

Duh. (Whoops, there's mean belittler again. SMACK!)

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Hops:

I'm relieved to read you're getting more real with M and with yourself.  M needs that information to determine his ability and drive to meet your needs, where you are, or not.  YOU need this information to make long term decisions with clarity and economy of motion.

That's, IMHO, the mission.  To really SEE what you and M have to offer each other.  Can you both get your needs met?  What about wants?  Is it all one way?  Really important information gathering going on here.  Might as well get to the substance and please.... remember you're as worthy of having your needs met as M.  You're advocating for yourself and it's OK to do that: )  It's the main reason I wanted you to ask M for a joyful BD present redo.  To SEE what he'd do with your outright request, but mostly..... to see you overcome your resistance to asking. 

It's not selfish.  It's self care.  NECESSARY self care. 

What M does with this information is up to him.  I'm very glad the Seik helps bring clarity and move you guys along at a good pace. 

Lighter

[Hopalong]

I hear you, Lighter. Asking for what I need and want is assertion, first cousin to boundaries. Saying yes to myself but releasing the outcome (except whatever part I control).

I don't think I'll focus on gifts, but on asking for what I want in my own life and in my relationship.

Had a blue day today (boy am I moody) because M responded fairly dismissively to my big missive. Kind of blew it off as a 'bad habit" from "too much therapy" etc. Said something about how I like to go "very deep" while implying that he just doesn't. Wasn't hostile but clearly isn't ready to sink inside himself and find out what's there. He's been lodged in the frontal lobes so long. I hope he re-reads it at some point and takes it in. (And he did make clear he's still seeing his individual T.)
He wound up emailing with some happy stuff and ending with I yam what I yam. Probably I could translate that as, not motivated to change myself.

So that's okay. He doesn't HAVE to get it. But I do (back to asserting). Next time he  launches a forced-teaching episode after I have nicely told him I don't want to be taught this recipe right now, please stop reciting every detail of the whole process when I just asked about an ingredient, please stop narrating this--and if he doesn't, I will peacefully get up and leave.

One connection I haven't made for him, that I will save for counseling, is that his autopilot tone and insistence on continuing, even when I was asking him to stop, is exactly how it felt (though it was extreme) during our disastrous time in bed that day. That IS a form of domination, and I think putting all these incidents together and recognizing a pattern of domination is what got to me today. I don't have to deal with it often --mostly it's charm and fun and relaxing together-- but I don't want a permanent relationship where I'm frequently having to fend it off, either.

I told him I'd felt tearful and frustrated today and he asked me to tell him about it, but I wasn't ready. I think that needs to happen with the Sikh. If the T can continue to teach M empathy then things will get better. If M is rigid and uninterested in exploring the self and emotion and empathy, then things will stay the same.

All will be well. I think quarantine catches up with me sometimes.

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

The having to get to the end of an explanation or story (I wasn't sure what you meant by forced teaching at first but I get what you mean now) is something I recognise in autism (and I expect other things as well) and it's very interesting when you see how it works differently in different environments - in a teaching or academic situation it's perfect because everyone is there to learn but not being able to switch it off in other environments is very difficult for everyone concerned.  I hope you can find a path through it, Hopsie, I really admire you for examining everything so carefully and taking it all out to look at it objectively.  There's no brushing off or glazing over things with you, and equally no desire for everything to be perfect.  It's a very impressive combination and along with your willingness to also examine your own thoughts and feelings and take action if necessary, I think M is much luckier than he likely realises sometimes.  I do hope the domination isn't a theme that can't be changed.

Yes, assertion and boundaries, they do go hand in hand, don't they?  I'm still having trouble with clear assertion rather than making excuses, ("I'm too busy to come over or too tired" instead of "I feel you only call me when you want something and I'd like our friendship to be more reciprocal - I'd like to talk about that before we meet up again").  Just writing that made me go a bit cold so I'm in awe of your ability to be so direct but also polite and compassionate as well.  I need to be more Hops   Lol

I think the quarantine madness is coming and going in waves.  Everyone gets affected by it sooner or later so I hope it settles down a bit for you again soon xx

[lighter]

Oh, Hops. I hope you aren't in a position to fend off dominating behavior, without end, too.  I just wouldn't thrive under those circumstances.... unless I found a way to unhook the reactivity around it.   Just not hear it, not let it get to me.  I don't know what that would take for you, but I hope M can learn how to STOP doing it. 

I'm picturing you distracting M from his habits and it looks like a lot of work to me. 

Rhetorical question.... when you feel into your body...... do you feel M understands T, how he's the student... how you're both working on changes to bring you together in harmony?

 Or do you have the feeling he's engaged bc he's interested in himself....happy to spend time with you as a couple's activity, rather than getting down to nitty gritty work? There should be code words and playful pointing out of behaviors he CAN stop or at least notice he can't stop.  He should be looking at your face...into your eyes..... SEEING your distress.  Caring.  Changing his patterns, if he can.   That kind of change isn't perfect.  It's the crabbing forward, sideways and backwards learning, but there should BE recognition.... doing better..... understanding.  Not just interest in talking about himself and continuing on as he's always done,while giving lip service to your feelings. 

If he doesn't want to change, doesn't feel he should change, isn't interested in change... that's important information. 

Do the different Ts ever speak to each other?  I think they should, if they don't.
Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

Wild guess:

Does M see this didactic & pedantic domination as "sharing" himself? B can kinda get into that mode when he's anxious about his vulnerability; Mike was worse about it... no getting a word in edgewise.

Hol's pointed out several times reently, that people reach adulthood with very little emotional education. Meaning that we never learned how or became comfortable working in the emotional space. It has been popular in modern society to glorify rationality and reason over emotions for quite a while. And especially in male conditioning. So emotional work was not prioritized in parenting. I guess it's just assumed that this comes from experience and socialization. Because of her intense emotional states and the physical agitation that comes with it... she & I have been stumbling along together learning, pondering, and sorting things out on that topic.

IIRC, at various times, we've dealt with things that came up for each of us - bemoaning the fact that no one ever taught us the actual meaning or how to manage various emotions. Or confusion of one emotion with another even. We were just told "that's what women live with" - a dismissive statement that it's not important.

This isn't even a complete picture, but maybe it's enough for you to catch my meaning.