Author Topic: Relationship/s  (Read 92643 times)

lighter

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #345 on: February 04, 2020, 06:02:29 PM »
Hops:

It sounds like things are going along pretty well. I'm still loving your T.  Rewarded for what M says, not what he hears.... that makes sense.  I hope it helps M SEE. 

 You chose to skip the Cali trip... I think that was wise, particularly while you guys sort communication styles and habits.   

I'm going back a bit, but wonder what M criticized you about in the jungle, if not things like what you bring up in T sessions.  Were they logical things, or were they illogical?  You don't have to answer if it makes you uncomfortable.  I noticed you seem to be guarding the relationship a bit more.... which I see as positive for the relationship. 

Just an observation and not necessarily reality. 

Happy anniversary, Hops!  I love sticking my nose into roses..... smelling them.. feeling their cool soft petals on my face.

Lighter 


Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #346 on: February 04, 2020, 10:33:27 PM »
I'd say illogical, Lighter. He was reacting to emotional pressures he was feeling too.
I've come to understand a lot more about him since being with his family, seeing the intense load of expectations he's been under his whole life (and rebelled from), seeing the deep devotion and sense of duty he has to so many relatives, and seeing his inner conflict because he's more at home here (and in Europe) now, than there.

I think CR was destabilizing for him, and he was trying to defend an identity that's actually been shaken loose. But he couldn't articulate that at the time, and I was just struggling.

It sure as heck was destabilizing for me. A hard trip but a very valuable one. He seems so relieved that the condo in San Jose is gone, like one more tentacle has let him go. I look forward, if all goes well, to returning with him sometime. For a week, not three. And in a comfortable hotel instead of in two homes that were about his past and a whole different dream, now ended. He's now mentioned maybe selling the jungle house too. He told me today after his exercise class that he just wants to focus more on taking care of himself, enjoying simpler things, and taking care of me.

I can't even recall the exact things he picked at me about at the jungle house. And at this point, I'm not really worried about it any more. We've made such huge progress since. And, since one of your posts, I remember I always have a choice.

He's a good man. And he's working hard at learning some very very new material about the self. I'm more relaxed around him than I've been yet, because we're communicating better. And I do sense he's really looking inside in a way he never has before. We'll see how it goes....

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #347 on: February 05, 2020, 07:31:56 AM »
Hops:

You sound....
centered.

Just check yourself. 
Carefully.

No making excuses for bad behavior. 
No letting M get away with anything that's unacceptable. 
Call him on everything.... it seems you're keeping new T in the loop and utilizing him completely to that end.

Really wonderful trajectory, ((Hops.))

Lighter

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #348 on: February 05, 2020, 09:01:44 AM »
[
He's a good man. And he's working hard at learning some very very new material about the self. I'm more relaxed around him than I've been yet, because we're communicating better. And I do sense he's really looking inside in a way he never has before. We'll see how it goes....

Hops
[/quote]

Hopsie, I feel that he is very lucky to have met you after a lifetime of having to conform to other people's expectations and having to play that role of knowledgeable professor so constantly.  To meet someone who genuinely wants him to be able to talk about how he really feels, who doesn't need him to always be there, always be strong, always have an answer - I'm thinking it must be a relief for him that he doesn't have to wear that mask with you - although I can understand it may be a hard mask to remove after so many years of wearing it.  You must feel like an absolute breath of fresh air to him.

I love that fact that in your T sessions he listens and that he doesn't throw anything back at you afterwards, or sulk, or take the opportunity to say something mean just to get his own back.  I like that he doesn't hear your comments as a criticism that he has to tolerate, but as something for him to look at and think about - and I guess he knows the same is true of you, that he can say what he thinks and you'll tell him what you think, rather than what you think he wants to hear.  I wonder if he's ever had that before?

It is very heartening that you're able to tweak the holidays a bit to make them more manageable and just decide each time whether or not you want to go.  I'm glad you still feel able to just take it at its own pace and keep working through it.  I'm happy that it seems to be working out for you both :) xx

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #349 on: March 07, 2020, 10:43:33 AM »
Well, I promised.

M and I are okay. But the Hard hard work is surfacing, as it needs to. Our T continues to be amazingly helpful and that's very hopeful.

What we've been processing lately has been super illuminating. It brings the personality gaps into relief and I am seeing what our challenge is. It really boils down to M having narcissistic traits (as I do too) that he doesn't realize. And me being so sensitized to every whiff of it that I get super stressed...because of how I'm wired. And yet -- M is NOT a pure-N, doesn't have NPD, isn't a bad person. He's just wired and trained to be self absorbed. A lot of that isn't the born personality as much as upbringing, in which he was the golden child, raised mostly by loving Central American servants, and when he came skipping in, everything stopped and he was smothered in praise and affection.

Our T once said to him, the way Hops describes your coming in and talking loudly and immediately and sowing kind of emotional chaos while you're shrieking giggles and getting the dog stirred up  no matter what is going on with her....it reminds me of a child coming home from Show and Tell at school. To my surprise, M said, that's exactly how I feel.

So now, I just suggest when he comes in with too much excitement and drama and destroys the peace, hey, let's be calmer...and he immediately turns it down. I do notice, persistently, that he listens hard and really tries to get it, to respond, to do better. That's why I still love him. Some times are harder than others, though.

It all came into relief during some house hunting (more looking to see what's out there, though we do seem to be stepping up the pace). Something unexpected happened that had an enormous impact on me. And the power dynamics of him having money and me not, came into very painful focus, which we are talking about with the T. (Thank god for him--he's so open to naming and seeing and recognizing what we're wrestling with. Whereas M, out of some guilt perhaps, has always minimized the important of those differences" class, money, privilege. So we couldn't talk about it very effectively, since he has such a hard time taking it in.)

Anyway, the realtor sent us a link and one look at the location and the pix, I was in love with it. Even before our tour. I emailed them both that I felt that way. It is a charming, lovely house with every conceivable space we'd need and perfect for aging in place, but still a warm, welcoming feel that felt like a hug when we walked in. Partly due to its charm and beauty, but also because it's on the street I learned to ride my bike on, behind my childhood home. Amazing. The street itself is perfect, 5 minutes from everything, no traffic, friendly neighbors, lovely old trees. Perfect.

So we're wandering through, soaking up the lovely, perfect spaces (including an addition with two walls of glass and a skylight, southern-facing for winter light, that blew me away)...and then I wandered upstairs to see where my study (the 3rd BR) would be. It was the perfect size. And then I looked out the window over the yard and saw it looked directly down the hill at my childhood home. It hit me like lightning. I had this sudden feeling: Writing here, I would be complete. This is HOME.
It's hard to explain but it was such a powerful feeling I nearly cried.

I go downstairs floating on the feeling, we've found it. As hard as it will be to leave my present house, in that one I knew, I would move tomorrow to live here. I was IN LOVE. Meanwhile, M was standing in the very pleasant open-plan kitchen obsessing over the lack of a granite top on the island and how "of course we have to update all the finishes and cabinets"--I liked the cabinets--and obsessing over every negative he could think of. The kitchen is lovely. There would be no emergency whatsoever about updating it if that's very important to him. But the bones oh the bones.

Anyway, later he began focusing on the cost, finding it overpriced. (And he'd just taking a big hit on the stock market, so that's totally understandable.) So we went back and forth about it all day. I asked him to let me contribute my retirement savings, that is how strongly I felt about it, and I meant it. He said oh no, etc. Meanwhile, the clock was ticking and because I know this town so well, including the market, I said to him and our realtor, this will be gone tomorrow. I knew. So all day we deal with the discussion and then, during our T session, M says he's willing to make an offer, and did. Sure enough, it was already under contract. It was a perfect gem, perfect for our lifestyle and aging needs...and perfect for me at a spiritual level. That sounds silly but it had hit me in that way like an earthquake. Yet not having money power, I was overruled. So THAT issue came into focus. I was just shattered. I wasn't going to fight about it, I ain't no gold-digger, but it was actually a painful loss.

I've never reacted that way. I've always been pragmatic and realistic about houses. I figured out later that the biggest part of it was that street, and that study window...with no connection to family now, I thought about how intensely I have always bonded to place, as I did as a little girl. THAT tree, THAT shrub, the way light comes through THAT window. I bond super-deeply to place. The unexpected revelation of how healing THAT place would be to me...blew me away. An actual loss.

Meanwhile, M explained to me that he looks at real estate PURELY as a financial transaction. His obsession (identified in T) is being certain he gets a "good deal." So even though he COULD afford it, he just didn't want to. His calculation said it was over-priced. Probably was. But I could have made up the difference from savings and the way he dismissed that option made me feel even more powerless.

All in all, I am glad we went through this. It was our first intense argument and it revealed a whole lot we need to be honest and adult about -- like bringing economic power imbalance right in front of our eyes, and examining how that will affect our relationship and how we're going to deal with it in the future.

Meanwhile, there's ANOTHER house on the very same street, even same side, that we're seeing on Monday. It's lovely and I could live there. It has the elegant finishes and historic aura (1920s) that M loves, all the spaces we'd need, and will cost even more than the previous one. But to M, space that impresses is important. Just a fact of his raising and I'm not going to shame him about it. To me, I want a house, however gracious or spacious, that feels like a hug when you walk in (as the other one did). He wants a house that will put you in awe of the owner (as this one might).

That won't be me. And that's the reality.

Heavy stuff, but necessary. And I feel that if he falls in love with the new house on that street, it's a compromise I should embrace. (Don't like the back yard as it's too shady and steep, but I'll make letting me have trees taken out my only condition.)

There you go....and here we are. Thanks for listening.

love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #350 on: March 07, 2020, 12:59:44 PM »
Aw, Hops, well, I'm glad you're still plugging away at things and that T continues to be so helpful but I'm sorry that M wasn't able to see how perfect this was for you and just go along with it.  If it were an investment or a business opportunity then I could understand the reluctance but as it's to be a forever home for you both it doesn't seem to me that paying a wee bit more (and it can't have been that overpriced if someone else snapped it up that quickly) should be a problem.  And yes, I get the financial inequality bit, it's things like this where it really shows and it would knock me off my perch a bit.  But - I'm glad you're talking it through and I'm glad he's listening when you tell him to calm down a bit and not get Pooch overexcited.  And I hope the other place ticks enough boxes for both of you.  Glad you have been able to update, I've been wondering how you were getting on :) Lots of love xx

lighter

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #351 on: March 07, 2020, 01:16:55 PM »
Oh, Hops... my heart broke a little when you didn't get your warm hug house. 

I don't know what to say to that.  It seems a fundamental necessity in this equation for your comfort in the relationship.  A priority.  M's pragmatic view of property ownership is understandable, but... at what cost in THIS situation.   

I'll have to think about that, bc I have experiences that likely color my views.

The T sounds like he keeps getting more and more helpful. 

It's nice M can shift gears, hear other people and try to make things OK for you too. 

Maybe that first contract will fall through.  Maybe you guys could have a backup contract in place, ready to go.

Lighter


sKePTiKal

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #352 on: March 08, 2020, 08:38:28 AM »
Oh Hops... I've been on both sides of the money-power issue. And had the exact same "house" difficulty to deal with.
I'm with Lighter - contact the realtor and ask to be notified if there are any problems with the first contract.

Its another type of assertiveness; to stand your ground on what you want. Since when does impressing others outweigh feeling at "home"? Especially starting over as an older couple? Maybe this time, it's M's turn to "give a little" so you can have your heart's desire?

That bond with place... I know pretty well too. The beach just wasn't it for me.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #353 on: March 08, 2020, 12:12:59 PM »
Thanks, Lighter. You got it, entirely. Empathy helps! At one point, when we left the T's office, I looked at him and said, I don't think you understand how raw I feel. And he looked into my eyes and I saw it hit him. He immediately contacted the realtor to make an offer. Even though it was too late, I did see that he was upset when he finally took in how I felt. It mattered to him. Our challenge is getting him to be more able to listen to me in the moment. Even now and then would be encouraging, because with his racing mind, it sure won't be constant. And that's okay. To a degree.

Amber, and both--the realtor knows. It was an all-cash contract and has been ratified, so I don't think there's much chance. But if it collapses she'll notify us.

I'm feeling gradually more peace about it. I do think M made a mistake, as it hurt me a lot and will haunt me for a while. But also, I needed to understand his anxiety. Even though he has a lot of money, he's just lost a third of what he's built over his lifetime. That has to be a huge shock. I haven't even looked at my wee investment portfolio. I am incapable of stock picking and reallocating with enough sophistication to stop the plunge, so why torture myself. Frugality is my only answer and fortunately, it doesn't scare me. I had one parent whose family was very poor, and I saw how resourceful people can be.

In addition, once M and I do set up a home together, I'll have a small rental income from my present home added to my social security. So I'll be able to save a bit more.

I'll learn something Monday, if M's attitude while we encounter the new places we're looking at, shifts a bit. I think it might, or he might remain in mogul-mode. That to me is just marching through a space without a pause to check...how does it feel to you? The good thing is we'll be at the T right before that appointment. I'm going to ask that we come to some understanding of how M is right to examine everything from a cost perspective, but how I would also like to be asked, included, in terms of my own sense of whether this could feel like home. Whether I can see "happy" there.

Fingers crossed!

Hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #354 on: March 08, 2020, 12:28:56 PM »
That sounds like win-win compromise to me, Hops. I don't care how good a deal a property is - if it doesn't "feel" right to the person you want to share it with - that $$$$$ isn't going to make any difference long term.

There are robins here today.  :D
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #355 on: March 10, 2020, 01:50:25 AM »
Thanks, Amber.
Simple, but truly you're right...it's the bottom line.

We saw the other house (same magical street) today and M really likes it.
I don't feel that "madly in love" feeling but could be happy there. It's very charming.

Smaller and less adaptable spaces than the first one, but we could make it work.
My piano would take up 1/4 of the living room, and he'd have to leave his ancient
one behind or put it in the basement (it's unplayable). So...dunno how that would fly. Fortunately the house is not even on the market yet, so there's not an intense rush to make decisions. I'm kind of stepping back to see what M wants to do, give him space to think. We could suddenly be under the gun to decide but at least right now, not.

It was a heavy day but, to me, a beneficial one. At T we dug deeper into what I'd experienced at the first house (they both got how emotional it was), and he shared more about what he feels overall in the present -- completely upside-down with a combo of anxiety (the market collapse), and grief over impending losses after wife's death (then professor friend, then his brother's dire diagnosis, and just yesterday, another relative diagnosed with the same deadly cancer --pancreatic-- that took his wife). Overall, our talk uncovered for me that underneath all the privilege and bluster, M is scared. The coronavirus is kind of a capper for him because for the first time in 40 years, he's not going to be with his sons to celebrate their birthday (same day, seven years apart; being with them then has been an annual thing since his oldest son's birth nearly 40 years ago). But because of the virus, he's not going back to California again this month. There are six cases in the town the kids live in, and they're scared too.

Right decision but it's just shaken M, who is feeling overwhelmed with change, past losses, upcoming losses...and literally, the meaning of life and death. I'm glad we talked so much and both listened better. I can see he's in a fairly dark place. As an uprooted man who's never quite been sure where he belongs, the threat of change and certainty of loss and fear of meaninglessness and death are peaking for him right now.

I get it. And oddly I feel pretty steady, not spiraling out myself. I have fears too but am seeing that although I can't predict the realities of my older age, I am safe now, and warm, and do have friends. I still want to wind up with M if as we work together in T these realizations continue to make us feel closer. But if I don't, I will remember that I got along without him before I met him. It was lonely at times, but I was living.

What I want to do for now is be supportive to him, not push him too hard, continue my own path and growth and time with him, and see what happens. We both have a lot on our plates and I've neglected my own life (writing, progress with home issues) since we met. That's on me (laziness, avoidance, plus ADD) and predated meeting him.

Live and learn is what I'm saying to myself. Live, and learn.

Hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #356 on: March 10, 2020, 04:01:50 AM »
Aw, Hops.  I just want to give you both a big hug.  No arse kicking for M now :)  Maybe the house buying can take a back seat for a while?  It's a stressful business and as you're both raw at the minute, albeit for different reasons, maybe you could put it to one side for a while longer?  Just let things settle a bit, emotion and money wise?  Hugs to you both xx

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #357 on: March 10, 2020, 07:37:05 AM »
That's my instinct, Tupp. And thanks for the hugs.
I think it's premature and with a huge chance prices will drop enormously coming up (virus and economy), it might make more sense to wait.

I still have the same security fears of old age, and moving in and marrying will take care of those. But we might go about our plans in better shape after some more months of counseling together. For now, I'm just going to wait and see what he says.

Didn't sleep all night for all the churning in my head, but on some level, also calmed down a bit.

Hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #358 on: March 10, 2020, 09:11:26 AM »
Hops, I'm glad you appreciate seeing what is underlying M's frustrating and sometimes scary behaviors. Your famous compassion will guide you the right way, I'm sure. All while looking out for yourself. He's lucky, in that this is such a strong part of you.

The fact that you are BOTH working on it - from your respective roles/boundaries - is excellent; I think it's what we hold in common as the "ideal" of a partnership. You're giving him the time/space to resolve it for himself. With love & compassion. That's a big gift. I think you're right to go back to "Hops' space" for a bit... and maybe tidy things up there and relax a bit.

I will surmise a little bit: and say I think that there are differences in how men/women process and finally accept the big reality of life - that of certain, but hopefully only eventual death. There are variations out the wazoo - depending on the person's past experience and ego/personality quirks.

My management style, means for me, that planning for eventualities gives me some peace of mind. Even while admitting that the "plan" has to have flexibility for the things that a person simply can't see ahead of time. Dealing with that uncertainty - to me - is the hardest bit. The scariest. But having faced it in the not to distant past, dead on, is how I came to find that I have a deep well of TRUST. In exactly WHAT, I don't have clue one. I just trust that everything will be OK - even when it's NOT OK.

And I have no idea whether that's just some naive belief left over from my weird childhood... or what it is. It's certainly not something I can rationally defend as being logical. I just know it's as real as anything else in my life.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #359 on: March 10, 2020, 12:35:07 PM »
That's my instinct, Tupp. And thanks for the hugs.
I think it's premature and with a huge chance prices will drop enormously coming up (virus and economy), it might make more sense to wait.

I still have the same security fears of old age, and moving in and marrying will take care of those. But we might go about our plans in better shape after some more months of counseling together. For now, I'm just going to wait and see what he says.

Didn't sleep all night for all the churning in my head, but on some level, also calmed down a bit.

Hugs
Hops

I understand the insecurities around some of the things Hops, but also know (from doing it many times!) that moving into the wrong place can be a costly and very expensive mistake.  You could maybe just keep your eyes open and if exactly the right thing comes up, you both love it, it's the right price and so on then great - but maybe put searching and viewing and really trying slightly to one side for now.  And like you say, you might find prices drop so you could end up getting something really lovely for less than you'd pay for it now.  I'm glad you're working things out and glad M is able to say what is troubling him like that - I think that says a lot of good things about him xx