Author Topic: Relationship/s  (Read 92654 times)

lighter

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #510 on: July 06, 2020, 03:45:26 PM »
Maybe the stalkers will learn something.

No sense worrying about what they think,IME.

Lighter

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #511 on: July 06, 2020, 04:48:29 PM »
Ahhh, CB, I'm so grateful for your reply. Thank you.

Quote
M's recitation of your positive traits. My ex did that.... The list never varied, they always came in a list together, and were usually recited to someone else ABOUT me.

This is often true, although periodically during the earlier part of our relationship he'd recite it to me often, and still dusts it off now and then. I feel as though the purpose is like "reminding himself of the relationship rationale" or something.

 (My M...would exclaim delightedly about something when I was doing it

That sounds like the difference between present-ness and professor-ness. Sigh

....we had a whole canon of Scripture that he could use as ammunition, and did. He didn't use "resistant", but rather "unsubmissive".

To me "resistant" is a LOT like "unsubmissive", which is why I dislike it. A lot.

Are you clear about what he's thinking when he says that you dont have many years left? Is he worried about one of you becoming ill or incapacitated and having to be a caretaker for those end of life years? Do you have any sense that he would be a tender caretaker to you, if it came to that? I know that you would be to him, if you made that commitment. You were incredibly patient with your mom--I remember--and I don't think he should worry on that account. Have you ever reassured him of that?

I think he feels panic over aging and losing his power and prestige, both of which are huge motivations. I don't think he's specifically worried about illness. Likewise caretakers. With his millions he could hire any help he needed. And, I think if he were unpartnered and really debilitated he'd move to California where his sons and their families would be very dutiful and attentive. Of course, if we were married I'd be very compassionate and dedicated to his well being sickness or health. I do not have the same sense he'd be a tender caretaker to me, it's not what he's good at (empathy or presentness). He'd be very responsible about hiring whatever help I needed. It would just be protection from neglect, and living somewhere pleasant. That's not nothing.

I used to ask my ex if he thought that whining was part of foreplay.

My M is a world-class whiner. He literally whines--it's a high babyish sound--moans like a hurt puppy, heaves huge sighs, and when that doesn't produce pats and cuddles, says something critical. "You're resistant" was just last night in that same situation. Huge turn-off. I am viscerally uninterested in mommying a grown man. I CAN love a grown man like an equal, loving and very affectionate partner. But I've been there and done that with one-way noticing and presentness. (When I did it for work, I was kind, patient to all and absorbed a bit of nastiness from the old gent, daily. He was impatient and ungrateful but we understood our relationship. In a love relationship, I'm not eager to sign up for that behavior. I'm very tender and forgiving when someone's in pain or afraid. But his whiiiiining, ugh.

CB, I really needed this. Your stories about our overlaps are soooooooooo helpful. I do think I can read the writing on the wall. Just going at it one line at a time. Thank  you so very much.

Gratefully,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #512 on: July 12, 2020, 11:29:28 AM »
I'm 90% decided that I need to end the relationship in our T session with the Sikh tomorrow.

It's still very hard. There will be pain and loss and fear of future. But I have been absorbing a ton of reviewing what Nism is, how drawn to it and comfortable I feel with it at FIRST. (And started re-reading our early, romantic correspondence which, on reflection, was absorbing at first -- we both dazzled with literacy and verbal pyrotechnics -- but actually draining and false-feeling later.) I don't doubt at all that M was sincere, but it was all so grandiose and high-flown.

What's really brought me to the breaking point is the ongoing stress of being with someone who, however well intentioned, simply CANNOT listen and simply MUST talk nonstop and simply CANNOT not-instruct/force-teach. Because it really is the only language or behavior he can do.

Therefore, I would have to simply "put down", as CB says, any hope of being known at a deeper level, or feeling a harmonious intimacy. M THOUGHT we were intimate soulmates from an early point, but that was mostly his flights of hyperbole. I responded in kind at first, but as our year went on, I realize I was feeling less and less romantically interested, and morphing into companionship, which has been comforting at times, but inevitably led to considering how we actually ARE as partners.

How I am is suppressed, frustrated and stressed. He just doesn't feel stuff or feel it in a way that changes him. And so be it, he's not going to have a personality transplant at this age, and neither am I. I've come to the sad realization that living with or marrying him would tax me to the core. Not because he's BAD, just because he is the way he is.

We had a stupid power struggle over who was going to program my new streaming system (had to buy an upgrade so we could watch Hamilton). He immediately wanted to take over "I'll do it" not "Would you like me to do it?". I said very clearly and more than once, I appreciate that you could do it, but I want to work through it myself because that builds competence. He kept barking instructions at me, and I repeated and repeated and repeated -- Could you just sit quietly and pat Pooch? I'm working with two remotes and two pairs of glasses (one for reading instructions off TV screen, one for the booklet, etc) so concentration's really difficult. Please, please, stop instructing me, stope telling me what to do, I can see the instructions and I will work through it, maybe just more slowly than you would.

NOTHING worked. He could not/would not stop barking orders, reading things off the screen loudly that added to my stress in concentrating. I must have begged him 10 times to stop talking at me and be quiet so I could think, and he literally could not do it. At one point I said what's so hard is that you can't control yourself. (Meaning his talking.) I persisted and got it all done but the experience was soooooooo stressful that I was drained and literally sweating. At the dinner table, I just said, that was extremely stressful. He just looked blank.

So I picture trying to share ordinary things in a shared home. I just can't. It doesn't matter what the event or task is...he Must Be In Charge. There's no harmonious teamwork. To this day it's a struggle to negotiate something as simple as whether I can carry dishes to the counter. Everything's a struggle for control.

I don't think M intends or wants to be this way but whether it's his OCDish or Nish or ADHDish issues....they add up to me feeling that I would be fighting to just be present, to take up space, to have enough oxygen. And I am Nish too at times, and super super sensitive, and introverted in a way, and just too easily drained by a personality as powerful as his.

That's just it. As much as I dread loneliness returning, and anxiety returning, and a quarantined winter alone coming up...I dread the petty power struggles and sometime putdowns (when he's mad, which he never owns, and gives a freezing cold condescending narrative of what's wrong with my character) more.

I think marrying or living with him would damage my health. And I guess that's the bottom line.

Another thing--I asked M if on occasion when it might really help, would he consider a 2-hour session or two sessions in one week? Because I think now is a time it might help us. He said that would be excessive and too much and...No. I asked because I am at that cracking point and he senses it, I think, and does not want to go deeper, to be in touch or work with with his feelings (much less mine) and resents the probing that highlights his own issues, and so forth. What I thought about later was just--he can concentrate passionately 8 hours a day on his scholarship. But me asking for an additional hour of T in one week, only in crisis, was "too much." During the call later, M said: Too much thinking! Too much talking! You have to Seize the Day! We'll be dead soon! etc....

At the end of our last session the Sikh asked, Hops, is one of your biggest concerns that your boundaries are not respected? I said Yes from my depths. And yet a week later M simply cannot or won't respect a basic request that he stop talking at me during the electronics setup I was doing. It felt HORRIBLE, but was also such a clear sign that no amount of discussion in T or suggestions from the T can penetrate the rigidity of his dominating behavior. It truly probably is out of his control, and if that's so I feel badly for him. But I think it contributed to my stroke in the past and could contribute to worse (because I am made the way I am) in stress-related health consequences over time.

During that last session I laid it all out, and I actually had chest pain while talking and my hands shook throughout. In hindsight, I think if talking openly about emotions and problems produces such fear, then I've got issues of my own to work on with my own T. But it also says something about how fearful I am of letting down my guard, or boundaries, with M. Because I do not feel fully emotionally safe, despite all his declarations about love and life (which go on for pages). He wants to INSTRUCT me into the relationship of his own fantasies (travel! food! diversion! distraction!) but he really cannot understand my own (peace, harmony, cooperation).

So, tomorrow, I need to tell M and the Sikh that I've realized that as we've spent more time, that I cannot continue the dream/expectation of a lifetime commitment.

It's really hard and I'm scared, but I think it's the right decision. I so hope so.

(Possibly, I could offer to remain his friend and occasional dinner companion. But I think it's unlikely, because it's so common among people with highly N traits to become quite unpleasant after you say No to them or stop cooperating with their plans. I would anticipate a lot of passive aggression and jabs of hostility. And I would love to be wrong.)

Despite all I'm saying here about M's dark or difficult sides, I will also miss him, genuinely. He has at times been delightful, playful, sparkling and fun. And generous (trips! food and wine!). I will miss those times. But I think I've gotten a clear vision of what a DAILY future or a DOMESTIC partnership would be like with him, and it's not happy. It'd be filled with his ego and compulsion to control, plus his reluctance or inability to do work that requires a deep encounter with himself. Too scary or too irrelevant for him.

He really is extremely fulfilled by his scholarship, and though it'll be very hard on him, I think returning to his teaching (online) this fall is exactly how he'll survive. He is driven, deeply, by his profession. And he has adoring family on two continents. He can talk to his older sister (his "guardian angel") for hours. So he'll have a lot of long-distance understanding and support. I have my friends.

Believe it or not, I still love the man. And I'm facing deep risk of my own in deciding to end of it. At my age, with some health fears and loneliness looming, some might think I'm mad to end it. But I believe that personal integrity demands that I be honest and open and tell it like it is.

It won't go down well. I'm scared but will survive it.

I'm wondering whether it's wrong of me to do this during a T session.

I could ask M if I might come by this afternoon? I could tell him then and then leave it up to him whether he still wants to Zoom with the T tomorrow. (I would do that regardless.)

Advice welcome on the in-person versus doing it with the Sikh? In-person might be better behavior. With-T is the only way I know I'll be able to speak my piece without interruption. But alone in-person might be more honorable.

Please do let me know your thoughts on the last paragraph...or anything.

thanks all,
Hops

« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 11:54:32 AM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #513 on: July 12, 2020, 11:58:42 AM »
Oh, Hops, I am so sorry.  You have worked so hard at this and I'm truly sorry that M isn't able to do more of the dazzling, fun, interesting stuff and really dial down the OTT bits.  We all have our quirks and faults, as you say, but yes, they need to be a part of the package that doesn't overwhelm or engulf the other person.  My heart was in my mouth when I read your description of setting up the TV box and having your repeated requests for him to let you get on with it ignored.  I am of the school of 'do it yourself so you learn more' (although I will get someone else to do it if I'm completely outwitted) but to have someone insist on being involved when you've asked so many times for them to leave you to it just isn't on.  And yes, if it becomes a daily battle over meals, household chores, your poetry, and the various other things you've had these issues with, exhaustion will just become part of daily life and we don't want that for our Hopsie.

When I initially read your options for telling him (in person versus with the T) my initial thought was that in person would be kinder.  Then when I read you don't think you'll be able to say your piece without him interrupting if it's just the two of you my heart sank.  For you to be in a situation where you need a third party present in order to keep him quiet long enough for you to say all you need to is just not on.  So I think go with the T session.  I'm sure, you being you, you'll have lots of nice things to say about him as well so he will hear good things along with the parts he doesn't want to hear.  At least it means you'll be able to say all of that as well.  He might not get to hear the nice bits if it's just the two of you because he might not stop talking long enough to listen.  So I would go for the T option. 

And perfectly normal that you love him even though some of the stuff he does drives you nuts!  I don't think we get to choose who we fall in love with.  It happens; sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  I am truly sorry that it's got to this stage though.  I had been keeping everything cross for some kind of breakthrough for the two of you xx

sKePTiKal

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #514 on: July 12, 2020, 01:01:36 PM »
Well, I think you've you thought this through with lots of compassion for M and balanced that with your own self-comfort and needs Hops.

I completely understand being scared, too. Fighting my own self-battle on that same thing right now. If you need the Sikh, to say what you have to to say and be HEARD ('coz I can imagine there might be some total denial of the content & reality, on M's part when you speak the words) then by all means choose that method. It's NOT less honorable to admit you have your own limitations openly speaking your truth and needing a safe place to do so. That's a sneaky way of putting yourself down; worthy of my own tricks even!  ;)  And it gives away your power to M, in a way.

If we (sorry for the we) can't politely decline an open invitation to participate in a relationship without fear of how it'll be received - or what it says about US... then we're already at a disadvantage; it's putting someone else's desires and needs above our own. Saying that they matter more than ourselves. And I'm afraid I've misunderstood for some time, how that isn't "compassion" so much as a fuzzy boundary; perhaps sometimes even codependence or enabling.

It is known, that N's or the unconsciously Nish will train their source to do exactly that. And neural pathways are damned persistent; even familiar and therefore understood as "comfort zone". Breaking that understanding is one of my new goals for myself.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #515 on: July 13, 2020, 02:34:00 PM »
Thank you all, so very much.
I don't think I would have been able to have my come-to-reality decision without your wisdom, patience and support. I am so grateful.

I'll answer you each in turn but have 30 minutes until the appointment and am trying to figure out what to say. I'll start with gratitude, because I am grateful we gave it a try, and then explain I've reached a place of knowing it couldn't be a truly shared life, so I'm letting go of that.

If he wants a friendship, that might work. Or not. But I've got to say my piece.

If you see this, please send strength and serenity my way at 3pm EST!

Will update you later.

Gratefully,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #516 on: July 13, 2020, 03:35:23 PM »
Aw, Hops, sending you all the strength and serenity I can muster!  You have been, and are being, true to yourself and we all need that.  You will find the right words; you always do, and the nice Sikh therapist seems to be a helpful and calming influence.  And whatever else happens, you've both learnt more about yourselves along the way and you are right that you've had some very nice times as well.  I'm hoping it goes as well as these sort of things can.  We are all rooting for you xx xx

CB123

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #517 on: July 13, 2020, 04:22:18 PM »
Thinking of you Hops.

CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #518 on: July 13, 2020, 04:47:25 PM »
Thank you both.

It went okay. I started with all the ways I love and appreciate him and then said I didn't think a shared life could work. I had a few examples.

He argued with every example and the T said, what you're doing now, M, isn't serving you. (M also began criticizing me, about how "every time I turn around there's another boundary") and we offered competing versions of Rokugate.) It was absurd in moments but a couple key moments for me were:

After I said my piece, M said "I will continue to see you, because you are [positive attributes...]."
Didn't say, "I'd like to..." or "Do you think we could..." or "What I want would be...."

Just said, "I WILL continue to see you." I noticed it. Sikh noticed it.

M offered a lot of critical stuff about me and I know that was hurt speaking. I didn't take the bait. I'm glad/relieved about that. I did describe how frustrated and stressed I feel when my speaking something (clear, honest) repeatedly about what I need or want is sometimes as though I simply never spoke. Wasn't heard.

I even said that at times with him, I feel "voiceless." Sikh wanted to know if when M was doing something like he did with the Roku event, I could just say "Get out of here, I can't think" and I confessed...it's not how I'm wired. If someone doesn't/won't hear me when I say/ask for something in plain English repeatedly, I'm not just going to be blunter and louder. He understood.

I described him as a wonderful, amazing, remarkable, fascinating person and expressed a whole lot of gratitude for the experiences I've had with him.

The Sikh said that although he sees that we both genuinely have love for the other, he wasn't surprised. He has seen the challenges/patterns we have. I sensed that he was truly disappointed for us. What a good man.

I wound up explaining what an enormously powerful personality M has (a positive spin but also true) and that the way I am made, I just don't think I can take on the assignment of redirecting all that power without health cost to myself. But I tried to express it in such a way that it was also a respectful compliment. M IS an amazing steam engine of a person. He reminds me of a driven CEO of some huge corporation, but in his case, it's academic pinnacles.

We left it that I remain open to possible friendship, and M emailed that it was "too bad" and to let him know if I ever have a "change of heart." I replied that my heart would never change toward him and that I was very sorry, and that if in time simple friendship would feel right for us both, why not?

It was hard but not as hard as I'd feared. Time will tell. I think the grief and future-fears and difficulty of winter alone will wear in ... but I hadda do what I hadda do.

I am very glad we had our relationship and hope for another. Even if that's not to be, I'll still be glad I was with M for the time I was. The Sikh focused a lot on keep our loving feelings for each other, and said he understood that we wanted that to remain.

I really thought the Sikh understood.

hugs and so much gratitude (I could never have understood myself or my needs this clearly without you guys--ever)--

Hops

"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #519 on: July 13, 2020, 07:37:11 PM »
Thanks for sharing all of this with us, Hops.  You have set a wonderful example of facing and dealing with this very common and serious relationship issue.  I hope many people read this thread and learn how to free themselves and not be "voiceless."

Richard

CB123

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #520 on: July 13, 2020, 09:15:12 PM »
That was really hard, Hops. I know it took a lot of courage to put everything on the table and risk the critical response that you got. I am so glad you did it with Sikh there. That was a good plan. With that much stress today, I'll bet you feel like you are turned inside out tonight.

I'm glad you already have your patio get togethers organized. I'm looking forward to hearing that you were able to have a conversation again without being interrupted!

I wonder if you can continue to have cleaning help occasionally? I noticed that you were very soothed by that little bit of self care. It seems like you are already carving out time to write and read and think. I hope this makes it easier and less stressful to really gift yourself with that kind of attention.

Tomorrow will be another day....I hope you get a good rest tonight.

Much love,
CB



When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #521 on: July 14, 2020, 01:30:14 AM »
Thank you, from the heart, ((((Doc G)))).
I think the reason the last weird struggle (over a Roku box!) was the last straw for me was that my feeling of not being heard was overwhelming. I not only felt as though I were voiceless, but as though I wasn't even in the room. Yet I was, and making sounds, speaking words...and nothing I said changed his behavior in the slightest. Not at iota. It was a disturbing feeling and a clarifying one.

((((CB)))), it was such a comfort to read "that was really hard." Your empathy of that just came right through and means more than I can say. Thank you.

And you're right, I'm utterly exhausted. (M. called and said, so why don't you come for dinner Wednesday. As though...all is well, we'll just get back into our routine now. I told him I needed time to think but once the fog blew through, I know that's not what I need. I think it would be confusing and distressing to go right back to his house--same schedule that he follows, always Wednesday---with Pooch and go through the same ritual as though everything's fine. For me, a big dream has ended, and M spoke as though he was just fine, no big deal. I don't believe it, but fear a new pressure campaign if I slide back into his rituals/world too easily. I finally just said I don't know what I need yet, I'm grieving.)

I think I'll just email him that I'm going to need several months to settle down and adjust to the change before I'll know whether it's wise to repeat our dinner dates.
(Honestly, if I become well and strong I think it would be wiser not to. He really is N-ish. The Sikh told him, "For someone who respects women, you are dismissive to her...." I thought M kind of dismissed that the way he dismisses me, and then M asked the Sikh for the second time if he would come to dinner, "now that our professional relationship is over." The Sikh smiled and made some remark about being vegetarian. Maybe that was a nice "No" -- I hope it was.

Thank you both, and all--
Gratefully,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #522 on: July 14, 2020, 05:50:49 AM »
I think you should be very proud of yourself, Hops.  You've embraced every aspect of this, enjoyed the good bits, been incredibly honest with both yourself and M, worked very, very hard, been willing to consider other perspectives and you've been very open and understanding where M is concerned.  I don't think anyone could have done more, or done it all so gracefully.  You're willing to step away, despite your very understandable fears about your retirement years.  I honestly don't think I know anyone else as honest or as willing to go it alone rather than settling and making do.  I am awed by you.

I do think it might be best to have a complete break from M for a while before deciding whether you want to see him as a friend.  I thought him inviting you over to dinner and saying he was still willing to see you did sound a bit like he hadn't heard you again.  And maybe you just need a bit of time to get back to being you again.  I hope you can be very kind to yourself and look after yourself well.  I feel a bit sad you won't be seeing the nice therapist again!  He seemed like a really good egg :)  I don't think he'll be going to M's for dinner :)

I am sorry that things haven't worked out, especially as you've worked so hard and there were good bits.  But things are what they are, aren't they?  I'm glad you've not sacrificed yourself and allowed him to consume you.  We wouldn't want our Hopsie to turn into a delicate wallflower :)  Lots of love to you xx xx

sKePTiKal

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #523 on: July 14, 2020, 08:08:42 AM »
Uh-oh... just seeing all this Hops.

Good job! I'm really proud of you, for doing this as gently and gracefully as possible. Kindly even; but FIRMLY.

You are going to need some cocoon time now, recovery, realizing that though we truly wish it was the kind of world that we didn't have to go such extremes to stand up for and protect ourselves; to even be heard, recognized as a real person with our own feelings, and those feelings and boundaries acknowledged as important as the other person's... sometimes we have to and we CAN. Trust that self-knowledge. Many times, it doesn't take this much firmness.

I have a lingering worry though, over his dinner invitation - as if none of what you expressed about your feelings mattered or changed things between you. IIRC, one of your first observations and concerns that you shared was M's entitlement attitude. Saying he WILL see you... despite your ending the relationship... means he isn't recognizing your decision - nor your right or perogative to make that decision. Perhaps it'll sink in over the next weeks, but that's going to require you to constantly turn down his offers... and that means, you're not "done" yet. IMO, you need to be done to mourn the ending and could've beens... and find your self again, strong and optimistic and capable. You need the space; he perceives his need for YOU in his life outweighs your need for space. (Sorry, I AM a worrywort. I sincerely hope I'm just imagining the worst and this doesn't happen.)

Sometimes, it's simply not possible to remain friends after an attempt at deeper relationship. It's just not an ideal world, and some people aren't capable of that at the time - and may never be. If that person has trouble recognizing that other people are free to have their boundaries... even being friends is challenging. So instead of hoping to remain friends, for now - my advice is to hold onto your warm affectionate thoughts toward him, wish him well, and close that little energy Hallmark emotion-bubble with - "It was just never going to work out."

That's a whole lot of complexity and levels to navigate a path through, Hops. It's real WORK. And it's emotionally draining. We need to have a cyber "Amazon's bonfire" - a girl's night out - to commemorate what a task this has been and how successfully you accomplished it.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

CB123

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #524 on: July 14, 2020, 09:16:57 AM »
Hops,
Him calling and saying "why don't you come for dinner on Wednesday" sent a chill through me. He actually couldnt have said anything that would have pointed up the problem more clearly. Wow.

I think your plan of taking a few months to settle yourself before entertaining that idea is a good one. And maybe, if you do, a neutral spot like going out and getting a burger where there is no power imbalance. You can even pick up the check.

I'm glad you're safe.

Love
CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010