Author Topic: Relationship/s  (Read 91163 times)

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #525 on: July 14, 2020, 10:56:59 AM »
Thank you ((((Tupp)))), especially for this deep image:
 
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you've not sacrificed yourself and allowed him to consume you

On a feeling level, you couldn't be more perceptive.
I love the man but he is so powerful he feels "consuming". Maybe even "voracious."

And I do need several months of full separation/silence before I could risk a possible new connection. It may not be necessary, as if his N-ish side wins out in his hurt, he may do the full discard himself. One never knows, and yesterday he expressed a lot of resentment about my short "retreats" during our relationship, so I can't imagine how months of it will feel to him. Time will tell.

((((AMber)))). I swear, I think we all here have PhDs in insight:

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...wish it was the kind of world that we didn't have to go such extremes to stand up for and protect ourselves; to even be heard, recognized as a real person with our own feelings, and those feelings and boundaries acknowledged as important as the other person's...sometimes we have to and we CAN.

That was bracing in all the best ways. Thank you.

I also think you're exactly right about the dinner invites (I had written him "in time, if it feels positive for us both") which he interpreted as "....[your email did not enter my awareness] ...So come on back now, in two days"). I plan to turn down whatever pokes come in. Lovingly but firmly. And if they become a flood, maybe not so lovingly.

I know from "the literature" about Nism that No-Contact is often the only way to fully move on. And that it's usually advised. I think that's more important with malignant N-ism (which M does not have) but I'm wary of going porous, so I'll be vigilant about when and how, and make sure if I do accept an invite one day (should they still be coming), I do it out of choice and not feeing obligated. Winter loneliness will definitely challenge my resolve, but maybe by then it'll be okay.

I sent him some info on Adult ADHD. Turns out that compulsive talking and inability to listen are massively common symptoms in those with the hyperactive type, which I believe M has. He's never explored it, so I said I hoped if he chose to, it would be a revelation and a help. Ironic that in the decade after being diagnosed myself (inattentive type, or likely the combined type), I wound up with a boyfriend who seems to have the same problem, different aspect. Two cats in a bag?

(((((CB))))) I understand the chill. It's an example of the "did I not just say something in plain English?" gaslit feeling I had during Rokugate. I'm thinking it's likely his whizzing brain rather than anything malevolent like stalking. I don't feel unsafe, truly. I think his own inner rules of conduct would not permit that kind of thing. (If he did behave in any antisocial way toward me, he'd find himself quickly facing the Great Wall of China.)

A neutral space like a park with a picnic is a much better idea than going to his house, and I will keep that in mind.

Right now, awash in gratitude for all this understanding, I need to do the cocooning and self care and simplicity.

Today: Watering the garden and taxes. (Talk about epic ADD procrastination...I have to sort whopping piles of papers today to even find the tax stuff, and that's before I go online and pick some freefile program to get it in by tomorrow!)

HEARTFELTLY,

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #526 on: July 14, 2020, 11:49:14 AM »
PS I sent M a last email for now, quoting my own that had said "in time, if we both want to, we could ...." and said that to clarify, I thought he had missed "in time" and for me it wasn't two days.

I spelled out that what I need is complete silence (including my own) for several months, to calm myself/resettle/process/cope--and that if in early October we both still want to then, I'd be glad to hear from him and we could do a nice picnic.

I wished him much love and support from his family and friends, and his T or even the Sikh (dropping a seed, since I have the feeling he'd do well with him, and maybe better than with his current young counselor provided by the University), and said as painful as the decision was, I have faith that we'll both be okay in the long run.

So now I've been as clear as I know how to be.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #527 on: July 14, 2020, 12:30:36 PM »
(It did break my heart when M said on the phone, "You're my best friend" because I know it's true. I know he's going to go through some terrible pain.)

Okay.
Bye for now.

H.
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #528 on: July 15, 2020, 03:39:02 AM »
Perhaps losing his best friend will be the spur that he needs to seek further help, Hopsie, to rein in those bits that have caused the problems.  Particularly if it is an ADHD related thing.  It might be that some specific counseling or perhaps even medication may help.  It's not something I know much about but he could use this as his own 'late diagnosis' moment and it might help him in the long run.  I think you've actually done him a great service, even though I don't expect he sees it that way.  But you've really shone a light into some dark areas and shown him that it is possible to ask for help, work though problems, speak openly and clearly about feelings and so on.  I've learnt that from you, just from reading this thread, so those lessons are there should he want to take it further.  And he does have support, as you say - family, friends, work colleagues and so on.  And I dare say you'd be open to email conversation if he wanted your take on something that came up in therapy or your opinion on something that had happened (possibly quite a long way off for him but if he did get to the stage where he was learning to listen I can't see you refusing to communicate in a supportive way).  So I think he'll be okay. 

I do know what you mean about winter coming.  I think thoughts of winter is what's turned my mind to moving (I'll go into it more on the other thread).  I did wonder if any of your other friends have been very careful with regard to precautions and might be up for a dinner date once a week?  Or if the patio heater idea might mean socially distanced outdoor buffets could go on after the weather turns colder?  Just wondered if it might ease you through the winter solitude.

I hope you got the tax thingy done.  Sounded grim!  Lol xx

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #529 on: July 15, 2020, 05:27:03 AM »
Tupp, we're dreamers, I think. Earnest proposals for things to become better (and how that might be achieved) or people's loads to be lightened (ditto). Deaf ears.

M's response to my ADHD info was... "Too late! Why take on a futile project when there's so much new to see and do!" I know that means he can't/won't undertake new therapy or study about himself. I get it, he feels old, fatalistic. His escape pattern has been on airplanes, running everywhere he can as often as he can. I think that's been his unconscious search for a stimulant. Seriously. Then he said I could still go to Dublin with him in spring if travel is safe. Felt like a bribe.

His next reply (to my last in which I expressed heartfelt concern for him and hope that he'd find love and support for this transition in friends, family, and T): seemed subtly hostile. Natural when you're feeling the sting of rejection, I guess, but this was unpleasant to read:
"...don't sound so serious. You've chosen what I think you have always wanted and sought: total independence. That always comes with a price."

He used to specifically admire my independence. And he knew also that I'd had a lot of fear for my future. So it seems to me...this was subtle ill will. (You'll regret not being with me, kind of thing.) Perhaps we're already in N-scorned territory.

Strike anybody else that way? I haven't answered either -- think I'll just let it lie.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #530 on: July 15, 2020, 07:54:45 AM »

"...don't sound so serious. You've chosen what I think you have always wanted and sought: total independence. That always comes with a price."

H

Ooh, Hops.  That sent a chill down my spine.  Very perceptive of you to spot it. No acceptance of the behaviour that's led to this, your kindness and genuine concern that he's okay and supported now, an implication that you didn't want to be in a relationship?  And the notion that being alone is somehow less preferable than being with someone and being unhappy?  Independence comes with a price?  The price being what, your own autonomy?  Not having to hide who you are because someone else doesn't want to see it?  You must pay a price now for not just accepting the things that were making you unhappy (even affecting your physical health)?  And the further implication that you can't be independent within a relationship?  There's a difference between being independent and being single - for some reason I don't think some men can separate the two when it comes to women.  Hmmm.  Okay.  I was having/have had some sympathy for M but he has gone back on my arse kicking list now.

I would let it lie, Hops.  You've been very kind and gracious and gone out of your way to try to make this easier for him - not that you needed to, that's your kind heart shining through.  Leave him to it now.  Polite refusal to any requests that come by but I wouldn't engage any further.  Circle your wagons, take extra good care of yourself and when the time comes that you do feel up to seeking male company again we'll see if Buck's got any single friends.  I have been day dreaming of you, Skep and your two Bucks double dating :)  Lol xx

lighter

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #531 on: July 15, 2020, 08:08:48 AM »
We're getting ready to check out of our lodging, but wanted to add support, Hops.

I don't think M' hostility was benign.  I think you're spot on.  I think he's ADHD running through everything over and over in his head.  Soon he'll be talking about it with everyone who can't run or roll away.

As for his " therapist" being young and from the University...I think it's more holding forth.  I don't believe for a second he opened up, was vulnerable, ever admitted his struggle, even to himself.  I don't think he could have.  Not where all his strength and competency come from.  That's too bad. 

You don't need M sniping at all your sore spots, Hops.  I do believe it will go on, as reality sets in for him, getting meaner.  I believe  you are his best friend too.  You were an excellent friend and mate pick for him.

He doesn't happen to be a good fit for you.   

:: Sending calm happy gardening vibes::.

((Hops))  Though M seems immune, you found the clarity you were Sikhing. 

Lighter




Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #532 on: July 15, 2020, 11:00:31 AM »


((Hops))  Though M seems immune, you found the clarity you were Sikhing. 

Lighter

Lighter, that is pure genius.  Lol xx

sKePTiKal

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #533 on: July 15, 2020, 02:20:43 PM »
Quote
   And the further implication that you can't be independent within a relationship?  There's a difference between being independent and being single - for some reason I don't think some men can separate the two when it comes to women.

Spot on, Tupp. I've experienced this firsthand. It's always subtle, but it's there. Where I really kick myself, is where I did it to myself - believing it was expected of me - until it was just taken for granted that this is who I was. (I wasn't; but didn't know thing one at the time, about who I was.)

Hops - is it possible that verbal engagement - any engagement with M at this point at all, beyond politely refusing invitations... is just exactly what he wants; what is feeding his sense of being entitled to further demeaning you, putting you down, and his sense of rejection?? (Oh woe is me, I did nothing wrong...)

As you continue to explain, even when wishing him well while reinforcing your refusal to participate in relationship... he's seeing it as a bargaining chip... a way through your defenses... a "gotcha" he can leverage to prop up his ego against the feelings of rejection.

This is why I said sometimes it's not possible to remain friends. What he's doing isn't "processing" and it's not fair. Reduce or end the exposure so YOU can go through the next phases.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

CB123

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #534 on: July 15, 2020, 03:35:45 PM »
A smart lover would use this opportunity to backtrack and try to make a better impression.

I'm sorry to say that it is classic N behavior to lash out and try to make you and your requests look ridiculous, even after the fact. I dont think he is going to try to hang onto the relationship. The next task will likely be to save his sense of himself, thus the ridicule, and that could go on for a bit.

Sorry Hops. That sucks.

CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #535 on: July 15, 2020, 04:53:12 PM »
No kidding, Tupp! Lighter, that's the MOST satisfying pun I've read in ages. So great I may send it to the Sikh! I agree with you that it wasn't a benign message. M disowns anger, ever, so unfortunately he won't admit to the punitive quality of those remarks either. But that's on him, I'm letting it go (caveat at end).

Tupp, your list of indignant questions was very affirming. Thank you very much for letting those rip! Yup. Even if a man can't/won't bother with tuning into empathy for how women can feel, that was a beautiful display of clear and righteous indignation. I'm grateful it was on my behalf, I needed to hear it.

Your advice too is well taken (although see caveat at end...oof).

Amber, I don't know. I think I've expressed soooo much frustration about disregarded boundaries that M isn't likely to go on a campaign to overtly ignore them now. I think in fact he probably believes he's lost me for good (which he has, barring miraculous insight plus self-confrontation on his part that I'm not expecting). The inner-boy part of him is in pain and full of woe. The Nish side produced an oh-so-omniscient lashing out at my chance for future happiness. The "price." Subtle, but he can't get by my writing-radar. (And he can't demean me to anybody but the medieval historians who've met me, or his family, but if we're well and truly OVER, it's moot. I will not accept direct demeaning anyway.)

CB, I hope your predictions of him introducing classic rejected-N sequences now are wrong, but I've asked him to not contact me until early October, when we each can decide whether to do a friend-picnic. I have zero f***s left to give to defending new bulldozed boundaries, so if he chose to take the dozer out for a spin over one, even a friendship possibility would be closed off then, for me.

The caveat: I read the first few responses here that WISELY said "set it down now" or "nope nope we're done" or the equivalent, and I still caved to my own compulsion to let him know exactly how I read that message, and it turned into a long "explanation" of how I felt two things: Dismissed when he'd repeatedly disregard boundaries he'd agreed to respect, and in specific about that message, Hurt.

Then I closed asking him not to contact me until October, and I intend to discipline myself likewise (wanting to avoid the email tunnel). I think he'll respect it. No idea how he'll be weeks from now.

Meanwhile I need to internalize all-a y'all's advice, because it's golden.

Sometimes here I feel as though this Board has, for years, filled a longing I always had for a sister. Thank you so much, I feel I have quite a few!

hugs
Hops

« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 05:54:32 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

CB123

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #536 on: July 15, 2020, 07:10:39 PM »
A nice thought, Hops, to have a sister!

We don't often think of it, because we are so used to giving away our power--but you could also tell him that YOU will contact HIM when you are ready, and that it will likely be October before you are. No need to ask him to respect your timetable when you already know he won't. 

Anyway, its weird going through that--you are closing doors that neither of you is completely comfortable closing. So its awkward.

Love,
CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #537 on: July 15, 2020, 10:12:11 PM »
Awkward as hell.
I spewed a couple more interminable emails (trying to explain feeeeeeeelings and self-discovery, self-compassion, on and on--plus more clearly how awful I'd felt during Rokugate, doubting I'd ever be respected and how discouraging that was).

He'd written earlier a few lines asking if I realized I constantly judge him and it's almost a "compulsion." Fair enough, but consider Mr. OCD....

Anyway, my last (finally short) one was just honest. I have trouble letting go and STOPPING when in this situation, and email sucks for this but I was breaking my own boundary by continuing, and he'd be doing me a real favor not to respond.

And he hasn't, bless 'im. So nuts. So miserable. So exhausting.

I THINK I'm free of obsessing about this until early October. Whew.

Thank you thank you...
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #538 on: July 16, 2020, 06:16:48 AM »
Well compulsions are understandable, Hops, but if he does contact you again I hope you'll be able to just ignore/delete/block or whatever's most appropriate.  I think CB's spot on with you deciding whether you want to see him in October and you contacting him if you do.  I don't expect you'll be thinking about a new man just now but by October - well you could well be having a great time getting to know someone online or via the phone (people are doing Zoom dates!  lol).  Or just be feeling very happy and content with yourself, your friends and Pooch, and not feel the need to add M back in to the mix.  So I hope in the meantime you can rest, recuperate, take Pooch for long walks, chit chat to people and if he pops up, just put him back in his box for the time being - in a contactless manner :) xx

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #539 on: July 16, 2020, 06:29:28 AM »
That's a very good plan, Tupp.
I'm not too worried about who calls whom in October, and in fact I was the one to "slip" and email him last...he's backed off. He's not stalky, really. I need to let it go too. Despite all my upset about him, real attachment is still there and it'll take time.

I do need the time and space to just see where I am later. (It would be astonishing if we met in October and he'd gone to see someone about the raging ADHD, had taken some Rx, and all of a sudden he was in control of himself and more able to focus outward, listen, and things go well....blah blah.) That's exactly how I can spin off into fantasizing and I'm not going to let myself.

Meanwhile, still thinking of him a lot.

I think for now I'll do myself more good if I stay focused on home, garden, exercise, decluttering, those Zoom times with friends (not new men yet, though I'd like to know how one finds Zoom dating), and even...writing. It'll be very good for me.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."