Author Topic: Mindfulness and codependence thread  (Read 81119 times)

Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #240 on: June 21, 2020, 11:48:58 PM »
Quote
even if it's not OK all the time.  It's OK.

REaaaaaallllLy trusting is different than trying to trust, of feeling I trust, IME.  Internalizing trust, that all will be well....

This sounds wonderful, Lighter.
I'm glad for you. You're positively ZEN.

hugs
Hops
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Twoapenny

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #241 on: June 22, 2020, 03:04:50 AM »
Hi, Tupp:

T said that most people experience their thoughts as
not being solid or real. They dissolve away when one focuses intensely on one thought. 

My experience is more of moving away from the thought, judgment or feelings of other people.  Moving back into my head and heart.  Turning away from.... turning back to myself.  There's joy and ease in this lately. 

Today I observed the deepening levels of healing and being present... like a door opening.

More an observation of leaving behind old limited thoughts.  Of having more spaciousness available to me. Of having unlimited ability to create and experience after years of feeling very limited and crushed into a small space with repeating thought patterns I wasn't aware of.

I'm hoping this passes and continues expanding into what comes next.

I've noticed my mind hasn't been able to rest for many years.... 15 years maybe. 

When I first began seeing this new T there was lots of amazing work done. I assumed that was the goal.... and it seemed like my goal at the time.  To FEEL better. 

Once I felt better, which I hope I wrote down, bc it's gone and I can't recall that particular shift..... once I felt better, once I could get myself out of a hole with breathing and everything I've been posting about..... I didn't understand what comes after.

Once the tension and weight of repetitive thoughts are relieved. 

Once there's room for other things.

Once the brain calms down, learns to calm down, begins laying down new pathways and strengthening them.

Once there's distance and rest, for a period of time, for the brain to make lasting change. 


It felt very mechanical, at first. It felt like... picking up a tool, that felt unwieldy, and ill fitted to the hand, and using it, despite the whonkiness. 

It feels more fluid and internal now.  It feels streamlined... like the gloppy parts and edges have been smoothed away.  More useful.  More comfortable, requiring less bandwidth on my part.   

Like rusty old wheels have been ground down and oiled.... able to move freely again.  I feel there's momentum, and I'm not attached to continued momentum.  I expect and will embrace forward, backward and sideways movement in this process.

I won't judge it.  I'll strive to embrace it and marvel at the process, knowing I'm moving toward more spaciousness, more ease, more joy.... even if it's not OK all the time.  It's OK.

REaaaaaallllLy trusting is different than trying to trust, of feeling I trust, IME.  Internalizing trust, that all will be well, is an unexpected shift I didn't see coming.

I wonder what's next. 

I look forward to experiencing it.

Lighter

Gosh, Lighter, that all spoke very deeply to me, and makes sense on some level although I think it's more of an internal level than in my head, if that makes sense?  Does the making sense make sense?  Lol.

I am definitely going to try to focus on one thought.  I've noticed over the last few days that I find myself from time to time watching stuff on TV I don't particularly want to watch, and/or scrolling endlessly though 'stuff' on the internet.  Kind of doing stuff but not really being there - zoning out a bit.  Then I notice that I feel very tense and then I realise that my mind is racing and I think I've kind of zoned out a bit to get away from it, without realising it was happening.  So that notion of focusing on one thought is very interesting and I'm going to try really hard to do that today.  I keep finding I'm listening to music and I suddenly realise I can't hear it - my brain's gone somewhere else and I have to re-focus on the sound.  It's weird how our minds can go in so many different places and we don't even realise it.

Leaving behind old limited thoughts is definitely something I'm trying to focus on now.  I've noticed when I feel stressed or anxious (today, for example, I have a telephone appointment with son's doctor and any kind of public sector interaction makes me feel nervous) my pattern is to re-run all the times we've been treated badly and prepare my arguments for anything that might be thrown at me.  What I'm trying to do instead of that - and it's hard, it's like trying not to blink - is to focus on nice stuff I've done in my life - things that I enjoyed, things that I was good at, things that were an achievement of my choosing, not because I won a battle someone else set up.  So yes, leaving behind old limited thoughts is definitely where I want to be heading.  And this:

It felt very mechanical, at first. It felt like... picking up a tool, that felt unwieldy, and ill fitted to the hand, and using it, despite the whonkiness.

It feels more fluid and internal now.  It feels streamlined... like the gloppy parts and edges have been smoothed away.  More useful.  More comfortable, requiring less bandwidth on my part.   

Like rusty old wheels have been ground down and oiled.... able to move freely again.  I feel there's momentum, and I'm not attached to continued momentum.  I expect and will embrace forward, backward and sideways movement in this process.


Such a good description and I really got what you meant by that.  I'm so glad it's coming together for you and all feeling so much more natural.  Like you've got to the top of the mountain instead of just being able to see the top.  Wow xx

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #242 on: June 23, 2020, 11:41:00 AM »
Tupp:

My feeling, about how things are going...
 is that I've pushed past limitations on my ability to rest. 

My brain feels like it's been in neutral for a good while, which is different than STARTING TO REST, then dealing with all the shoulds... the expectations for payouts IF I allow myself to rest, then I'll (insert amazing things I HAVE/SHOULD DO,bc I allowed myself to rest for a short time.) 

Lately, I've extended that rest... banished the voices..... removed expectations and judgements.... just released them... let them go without focusing on it.  That's hard to do IF you're NOT judging the judging, IME.  Ummm.....

::uncrossing eyes::.

Mindful focus on resting, feeling entitled to rest, dismissing voices and belief systems that challenge my ability to rest. RESTING IN AWARENESS. All the shoulds.... all the voices telling me I have things I SHOULD be doing.... are falling away without judgment. I know I repeated some things there, but it helps me internalize the lesson and so I'll be repeating a lot in this post.

I think I wouldn't be resting IF I was judging any part of it.  So many things to let go of.   Latching on to ONE thing derrails the entire process, IME.  You can do so many things rigth and still not move forward, which is part of the process, and shouldn't be judged.

I don't think I'd be resting IF I saw whatever I was doing as something negative.... like "zoning out" on the computer,  which I've limited to a few things that bring me joy, engage my mind and maybe that's part of feeling more creative.... of feeling into more possibility bc my mind is engaged with joy OR I've stopped labeling it as anything.  Not sure.  Just noticing I'm not judging myself or labeling what I'm doing.... I'm just open and exploring and noticing.

What's byproduct of resting in awareness?   

I can only say I've been focusing on rest... that definitely came first.  This typically leads to noticing how tight my stomach is.  I release that tension.   I go back to feeling good about resting. 

Waking up feeling good.... noticing turning toward myself and away from negative voices and belief patterns of not feeling entitled to rest, and all the I SHOULD BE DOING blah blah blah....  seems to be a byproduct of resting my brain and avoiding reactivity, IMO... yup. That came next.  Soon, if that lasts, I'll forget what that feels like...  how it felt to notice turning toward myself and away from the voices, bc maybe the voices quiet, and stop?

The brain experiencing less stress means I have access to logic and creativity... seeing possibility... feeling good enough.... feeling entitled to rest and joy and more, in general.  By.  Products.

My feeling is my T was either responding to my thoughts,  and being proactive with what she felt would come up for me..... the upcoming thoughts I interpret as setbacks or not moving forward, and wanted to help me anticipate them and deal with them.  Maybe?  I'll ask her.

Maybe the discussion around my ignoring the negative voices in my head made her think of thoughts as not being real...  I can't be sure. 

It's all connected.  It's all there, waiting to step into the spaciousness created with the tools I'm practicing. 

I just wanted you to know the starting place was focus on resting.  Extending it.  Feeling into it. Allowing it to inhabit my brain and body without pause or judgments, which is something I had to focus on, for sure.  Just letting it in, in dribs and drabs.... wasn't enough, and I didn't SEE that.  Couldn't get it, until I focused ON IT solely, as a mission.  Trying to DO everything, equally, meant there was a lot of crabbing sideways and backward, but that's still learning, and building pathways and relieving stress in the brain, isn't it?  Why, yes.  Yes it is: )

So....resting in awareness.  Resting.  Rest.  Resting my brain.  Staying out of my amygdala and limbic systems.... no fear.  No worry about the future or dwelling in the past.  And.... not living in my limbic system and amygdala isn't something I did.  It was byproduct of rest.... I'm pretty sure.  It was the wheels turning more easily... without so much muscle and will..... less rust, more ability. 

Being here, now, can lift us out of the spectrum of anxiety (at the top) and depression (at the bottom) and free us up for what's in front of us. IME. Above, and into a larger window of resilience.... we grow.  We gain.   We expand and build.


So.... rest.   

As priority. 

Huge self compassion.  Returning to those things if I stray.... without judgment.  Just curiosity, and THAT gets easier... starts to become the default, IME. 

I'm checking my stomach for tension today.... and I'm always pretty relaxed lately.
 I'm dealing with a sprained tooth, of all things and the ligament around this particular tooth actually siezes up when I look down, so I have to tilt my chin up,  and try to remember to keep it there OR I'm dealing with what feels like a foot cramp, but IN my head and jaw, ouch.  And THAT has my stomach tightening up, for sure.   

Most of all...... I've stopped feeling panic over NOT MAKING ENOUGH GAINS after resting a bit... resting some... resting until my SHOULDs kicked back in. I can't stress that enough... how I sabotaged myself, even while I was using tools I knew would help.... I limited myself.  Now I'm aware of that one little thing and so happy to have moved through a piece and put it in place.

I've pushed beyond that fear, and rolled my brain into rest's arms,  for the sake of resting, sans expectation of what I MUST or SHOULD do, bc I've rested a bit.  Again, I repeat, but it bears repeating, IME.

Resting more.... beyond feeling guilt for any rest I get..... and stopping myself.

Rest beyond stopping.... is..... what happened that I can put my finger on.

The other stuff happened, bc of that, IMO.

And when I'm challenged  by negative thoughts...  I'll focus on them and see what happens to them.... without judgment, but with curiosity.  Without expectation.  And maybe that's what the T was referring to.  Maybe she understood everything I just posted about, walked herself back to the place I'm at, on my path, and spoke directly TO what's going on for me, even as I'm having trouble connecting the dots, but HAVE the dots in focus, but can't see them all at once.

Nothing has to go any particular way for me now.  I don't have to get certain gains in exchange for being kind to myself, allowing myself to rest and feel worthy of it. That happened without my understanding or having that in focus.  Different things, I practice, come into focus and are useful in ways I didn't see coming or understand.... it feels amazing.   

I think this is new, and I believe I wasn't necessarily aware of I was pushing that deal.... making that deal with myself.  I don't think it was with myself, btw.  I think it was a deal I was making with the negative voices and belief systems of not being worthy in my own right to rest, care and compassion.

 Tupp.... do you think you have beliefs around not being worthy or of having to prove yourself?

Having to prove yourself worthy.

Having to give and give and give to be worthy of some small thing you wouldn't normally feel you deserve?

Being flawed.... having to hide the flaws.... protecting yourself from being identified as flawed and not good enough and targeted by the negative voices?

Targeted and attacked?

All my life I've been targeted..... with FOO members wondering about it, not doing the attacking, but noting it..... being curious about it out loud.  Wondering why someone is DOING something really awful... mean girls being mean, mostly, now that I think about it.  I've always been so confused and confounded by it.   Stunned, really.  And this was happening not so many years ago.... just blatant cruelty and abusive treatment at the Re Center, for goodness sake, bc I handed that woman...... the chance to be who I always am with people.  I just haven't internalized other people's motivations and habits bc I know my own, and mistakenly assume they're similar... will appreciate what I appreciate and step into it, when mostly.... the people who spot me for what I am HATE and resent and feel very destructive towards whatever it is they identify as NOT THEM.... as something maybe they lack or resent. 

Ummm... SOOOPHING, Lighter?  Stay out of other people's heads.  I don't have to figure that out,  just notice it,  and respond to it, rather than react.  Broken people are broken in their own ways.  I deal with my brokenness, and that's enough.  That woman is on her own path, where she's supposed to be.  When I see her there's no more reactivity around it.  For a while it felt like being hit with electricity when I saw her.  Not anymore, though I sometimes think about asking her about what happened, without judgment or expectation.  Maybe she'd feel better if she could talk about it.   Not mine to solve, though.

Moving on. 

How I see myself in the world.  How I feel obligated to fix and serve and fix and busy myself with being earnest. 

So very earnest.   Like radar... an electromagnetic field of earnest seeking... that program running in the background, THE default setting.  Lord.

And that's part of everything, for me.

That realization turned me around and faced me.  Unfortunately, with more shoulds.  Hmm.... something to notice, and not think about, I think.

::eyes threatening to cross again::

Rant coming on.....
this should have been a two-part post, I realize.   


I should have been more assertive.   I should have spoken up more.  I should
have insisted on being heard throughout my entire life.  Should have been more annoying, insistent, abrasive, pushy.

IF I'd... if I'd... if if if if if.......

I stopped doing that to myself, when I was resting, just for a bit, and I know I did, bc I've shifted out of resting and into SHOULDS again.  I recognize it's back, in this moment. 

A circling back.. hmmm.... backwards and sideways movement.... the T knows how this works.   She reminds me.  She sees it coming and shares lessons she knows will be specifically helpful, IME.  It's here and it's OK.  It's part of learning.  It's OK.

I'm smoothing off the remaining edges of it.  Getting to know it.  Understand it better, calm it, release it back into the..... nothing.  Let it be nothing, bc it was always nothing.   

I could have been all those things, pushy/abrasive/insistent/annoying as hell and people would have benefitted around me, sure. Dad wouldn't have had his debilitating surgery.  ASPDh likely wouldn't have felt so entitled to crush and destroy/harm ME..... IMO. 
IME.   

But I wasn't that person then, was I?  I was doing the best I could at the time.   Considering all my causes and conditions.... raised in a family with people who did step up, insist, raise their voices, or use language you couldn't ignore, etc, which I just wouldn't have done, but  I'm not that person any more. 

She's gone and I'm OK with that...  I'm interested in what I do next.  I'm not judging.  Just noticing, and it's NOT MY FAULT that other people made really catastrophic choices.  I didn't make those choices, they did.  My choices were always earnest, to work, to do other people's jobs.... carrying their due diligence for them, seeking compromise and the best possible choices and that was beyond my responsibility/ability... trying to save them... save us all... from their catastrophic choices and that FEEEEEEELS like I could have/should have saved them, saved us all, but that's not right.  It's not fair.  It's not OK to hold that belief any longer, bc I did everything in my power, and beyond to change the outcomes.  The catastrophes that followed were THEIR choices.... not mine to carry, though I've circled around feeling responsible over and over and over for so many years.  And I'm so very tired.  And this rest... this longer than normal period of resting FROM those beliefs is overdue.

THIS has not only haunted me, it's confused and confounded me.... circular.  There's regret and shame and despair attached to it.   None of that's helpful, except for the noticing without judgment.

And I see it very clearly now. 

How I bought into the negative voices, and maybe I'm the one making up some of the things they say.

How I bought in and believe them and it's time to understand them, learn the lessons they had to teach, then apply new strategies to get more of what I want and need. 

THIS is important.  THIS can't be skipped over and given a cursory lick and a promise, as they say in the South. 

Boundaries... the understanding and practice... is an important piece of this.  So many dots, some...  maybe most... in my peripheral or outside view entirely and that's OK. They're always there.

  Focus on ONE thing is OK and helpful and moving me down the path.  The path has more light, as I practice all these things as I can, with mindfulness.  The pieces move on their own, eventually, and come into play to do their part, IME.  THings ease.... things release, and EXPAND.  Yes, that's it.

Expansiveness begins, and then what?  I'm curious. 

If being heard is important to me.... I have to strategize and work towards being heard going forward. Regretting the past.  Feeling shame around prioritizing keeping the peace and not upsetting people around me....... that seems so....
::resisting the urge to say dumb::.

so....

so sad and childlike and....
sad. 

What was modeled for me wasn't MY STYLE, but it was there, in my toolbox, and that created stress , bc sometimes I availed myself, and that felt just awful.  Wasn't helpful, in the long run.

So many people would have benefitted if I'd been taught about healthy boundaries and entitlement TO them.   I would have benefitted most of all.  Well, maybe nothing would have changed.   Why am I judging that? 

::breathing deeply::.  It's OK.

And so this upcoming family reunion will give me a chance to practice and notice how it feels and what comes next. 

I'm looking forward to having more energy and joy and curiosity and not worryi8ng about everyone around me, as priority.  All that energy freed up.

The journey continues.

Very.

Cool.

Lighter

Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #243 on: June 23, 2020, 11:57:38 AM »
It sure is very cool, Lighter.
And inspiring to read. Thank you for sharing this.

Quote
I've pushed beyond that fear, and rolled my brain into rest's arms,  for the sake of resting, sans expectation of what I MUST or SHOULD do, bc I've rested a bit.  Again, I repeat, but it bears repeating, IME.
....
Rest beyond stopping.... is..... what happened

I loved the poetry of "rolled my brain into rest's arms." And the meaning, of realizing you're not resting just to get a spurt of fuel for the next SHOULD. It's going deeper, this rest.

I think this all hit me strongly today because I've slid back into mindless escapism which, in my case, can look on the surface like rest but is really just avoidance and numbing. The knee fracture (much better now) was a big slip backward.

I may be in a different part of the cycle (I have shoulds I've neglected beyond common sense), but I really like reading how aware you are, and how much respect you're giving your own thoughts and your own healing. That's powerful.

The thing that comes through most strongly is the determination to not poison yourself with criticism or self-loathing or something like that inner voice CB referred to that I understood instantly: "A constant murmur of disapproval."

I think when I don't confront that judgmental voice in my head that I grow exhausted, try to drown it out with avoidance behaviors, and eventually get so irritable that I don't feel I can be around people or start thinking critically of them, and sink into a murky fog.

Your clarity here helps me think about how all this is braided together.

Hugs
Hops

"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #244 on: June 23, 2020, 04:32:34 PM »
I'm so glad you seemed to really understand what I was trying to get across, Hops. 

It seemed difficult to understand and explain, even to myself, bc it's new, and nuanced and more important than I ever could have guessed, bc I didn't know what I was going to do, or feel or how it would change me IF I somehow managed to figure it out.  It's not important what happens, only that I'm mindful and paying attention.  Noticing.  Unafraid bc I'm not judging or setting expectations of any kind.

Heck, maybe I have many more layers of rest to explore and drop into.  Surrender to.  Roll into: )  More than I can guess about or believe.  That would be OK.  Today.  There was a time that would have seemed unrelentingly overwhelming to me. 

I can just hear the negative voices in my head from days gone by...
MORE REST?  They want to know just where I believe more rest will lead.  It sounds a lot like coasting to them...
and the only way to coast
is downhill. 
That's what they would have said... are saying still, perhaps. 
And it's OK.
 I don't believe them anymore.... I'm just noticing them and....
Well.....
I guess there's something at the bottom of that hill that requires my attention.  I need to see it.  Understand it.  Make peace with it and internalize it...
 For my wellbeing. 

And the breathing, Hops.
I forget to DO that.
I forget I can do that. 
I forget all the time, even though I'm aware it helps so much. 
I'm sure I'd feel better if I remembered, and I will, at some point, remember all the time. 

::uncrossing eyes::

The journey continues: )

Lighter

 

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #245 on: June 24, 2020, 04:59:55 PM »
So, I talked to my T today and asked her about the "Lion's Gaze" practice of turning and looking at a thought... in our mind... while dropping the story around it, and just seeing what was there.

THIS TIME when I did it the thought telescoped away, got small and disappeared, for me.  Everything about that distressing thought.... vanished.  The emotions attached to it.  Everything. 

T said often times, for her, the thought just goes blank.... she sees a blank white space, like a screen.  If you're familiar with A Course In Miracles, they talk about the white screen of a movie theater showing your future and past.... you can see whatever you see, laugh, cry, but the screens are just blank, in reality, bc all that's real is the present moment.  There's no past and no future.  It's always right now.

The practice of turning to face an emotion or thought, while resting in awareness, shows us these things aren't things with shape, color, heft or size.  They're not really there. We don't have to do anything... just turn and face it.... and look. 

Anger, for instance,  has an energy lasting 90 seconds in the body...... and we did an exercise in conjuring and noticing anger... then turning to look at it.  It did dissipate and recede, for me.... I would have had to reconjure it and perhaps tell a story around it to bring it back INTO my body.   It was just gone, and every time this happens recently I feel tremendous relief. 

To KNOW I can manage my mind, make a friend of it, calm it down and depend on it for everything I need it to do for me.  I don't have to let it drag me around, triggered and reactive.  I don't have to allow it to go on and on with a story that's upsetting when I can put that story on the shelf. 

Understanding emotions, what they are, what I can do with them.... how I see and interpret them, or let them go.... helps me gain some vision of life lived with my whole brain engaged, resting in awareness.....
more creativity, logic, reason and problem solving skills
and not JUSt to escape suffering. 

At first everything was about experiencing less suffering.  When joy popped up, not often, but it did pop up, that was revelation.  I don't think I believed it, but it was real.  Being able to shift into complete awareness... presence... mindfulness is still revelation every time it happens.  Available to me, with me wondering why I don't select it more often.  Hmmm.

Again, doing this consistently feels like using a tool I'm not used to handling, and so I understand this will get easier and just snap in place... likely when I'm truly relaxed and at rest.  Not trying.   

Things have shifted, away from just feeling better.. not feeling bad. 

T said she recently took a workshop about anger really being about fear, and I'm going to do some work with that. 
Hint...

there's nothing there.

Anger is also about PROTECTION.  Some wounded part of us, perhaps, or child part, but about protection and it's useful and powerful, for protection, but not for seeing things clearly and as they truly are. 

I think. 

With acceptance. 


Then we talked about HATE.  She asked me to do some work.. conjuring HATE, then turning to look at it without doing anything.  Just looking at it to see what there is to see. 

Again...
hint....

there should be nothing there. 

Giving energy to thoughts and emotions vs doing nothing... vs being aware.... resting in awareness and looking at what's there, taking it apart, seeing what it's made of... what's behind it IS the mission today.  To make that a habit. 

Sobriety came up..... since I don't drink much, and not at all lately (anti drug), I interpreted it as a need to focus on how emotions cloud my perceptions and alter my ability to SEE what's real with clarity.  To notice and release those things so I can see more clearly, thus begins the work on HATE.

Work on ANGER.

Ask myself....
What do I need, right now, when I'm feeling upset.  What IS that thing I'm feeling and what's behind it.  Usually there's a younger self asking for something.

If anyone's interested T shared with me a link to a 21 day meditation..
Renew Yourself:
Body, Mind & Spirit

It's free and available right now in English or Spanish. 

I think this will get you to the link:
choprameditation.com

So....
the mission... right now....
to rest and turn and examine my thoughts. 

To rest and breathe and pay attention to what's going on in my body.

To drink my food for a week to calm this darned sprained tooth down.  I ate a salad today with avocado... just chomped it down, like normal to see what would happen and I about came out of my skin.... so upset was that ligament around my tooth, OMG.  It throbbed and screamed and I ran around with a bottle of 800 mg Motrin till it let up, which it did in a matter of minutes. 

Just any shifting and knocking about upsets that ligament and it tenses then seizes, like your foot or calf muscle when you're dehydrated... so very very painful and pulls other muscles into it also.   I have my answer as to what happens if I chew normally.  The info says it should last about a week.  There's zero discomfort in this moment, but just thinking about it makes it jump and throb a bit.  The anticipation I guess, tenses it up.


Lighter









 

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #246 on: June 24, 2020, 06:16:34 PM »
I talked to a neighbor about my sprained tooth, and he said he'd had a bruised tooth before.   His dentist gave him something to keep him from tapping that tooth into the lower tooth, until it calmed down,  so I'm going to ask my dentist what that might be.  I assume it's a little guard, though I can't think how it'd stay in place.

Lighter

sKePTiKal

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #247 on: June 25, 2020, 08:31:15 AM »
Lighter, I've been on my own version of a work path through that space. I don't have any good words for it yet. But what I DO have that's different, is Hol -- who is where she is, on her own path. We can mirror things back to each other. And we do have those uncomfortable moments, bumping heads moments... or where one needs, some THING, and can't say... and the other can't read accurately, what the other one needs; so waits... for clarity.

Hol and I are more on the active side of Amazon Warriors. It's just part of our nature - but we're both excruciatingly conscientious about it. Between the two of us - it's remarkably easy to wound with a gesture or off-hand, flippant remark. My working theory about all that, is that each of us have that place where we need the unconditional love and protection and external soothing because of the intensity of what we feel. Sort of the same as an inconsistent attachment style. Much of what you wrote is very very familiar to me. I just don't have the right words to talk about it like you do. And we're both working it out differently... as you are. I do think that what works is slightly different for all of us.

What you said about anger... I was able to use to with Buck when he got very angry. Validating the feeling... comforting him... until it de-escalated a bit and his brain reengaged.  I had no fear of him... and he is an explosive sort of guy. I think that relaxed him, even more... and he appreciated what I was able to do in that moment. The almost silent sobs that followed, in him, were enough for me to know how long he has gone without that simple human kindness. I have 42 long years of practice with Hol.

----------
At this level, I think the work is less about correcting a problem and more about refining and mastering the techniques. So that a real change occurs through accepting the skill as one's new instinctive reflex. That mastery is internal and invisible to the outside world and other people... but it still uses up tons of energy. So extended periods of mental/emotional "rest" are absolutely required.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #248 on: June 25, 2020, 09:09:17 AM »
Is Buck's anger PTSD-related?
Do you know what triggered it?

"An explosive kind of guy" is worrisome, Amber.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #249 on: June 25, 2020, 09:34:01 AM »
It's OK Hops. Not PTSD-related; he is still cognizant of what he's doing. No worse than Hol - or me, after my long fuse is expended. But he's not been exposed to women who can deal with raw anger before; that's new for him. 'Fraid it's kinda my native language. But I HAVE been focused on expanding that vocabulary a LOT MORE.

ETA: He and I have talked about that, it was one of Hol's concerns for me. And he's explained that he NEVER has and NEVER will hit a woman. That's just how he was raised and it's ingrained. Most he will do is restrain. His bent is protecting women... and he was angry because he wasn't there to protect his D, from a life event that we all go through. Even though I keep working on him about how it's counter-productive for him to be so protective as she's headed out to college. She has to learn to stand up for herself.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 09:38:22 AM by sKePTiKal »
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Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #250 on: June 25, 2020, 01:19:37 PM »
Gotcha.
I'm sorry he has those outbursts but glad this one wasn't aimed at you.
Glad you have the stomach for raw anger. I make tracks, but am a wabbit.

Maybe he has a codependence thing going on with D?

Anyway, long as you're okay.

hugs
Hops
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CB123

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #251 on: June 25, 2020, 01:38:26 PM »
Skep,
Restrain? That made my heart flip a bit.
I had a husband who restrained.

Hope I'm misreading that.

At any rate, I love hearing your stories, even if I dont comment much.

CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

sKePTiKal

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #252 on: June 25, 2020, 07:26:33 PM »
I am more than OK, Hops. Both Hol & I are no strangers to our own anger. It wasn't directed at me at all. But it was all he was experiencing in the moment. Just like Hol, when she goes there. And the rare times I go off.

I understand where y'all are leaping to - and what's behind that. I survived that kind of thing in the past too. But it's the wrong meaning in this context. I would be the first of the bunch of us, to freak out if it was the other. And my radar for that kind of thing is NEVER wrong. Even in a crowd of strangers. Even if the dangerous person is a woman. And they DO exist.

But enough of this derailment! No worries.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Meh

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #253 on: June 26, 2020, 01:49:57 AM »
Darker emotions, they fascinate, we all have them right. We think maybe if we don't feed them they won't grow, if we ignore them or suppress them maybe they will go away, still they tell us something, it's just too bad they are so fear inducing and destructive. True feelings are destructive, isn't this weird, that so many relationships are topical and even careful and based on etiquette. Not that there is anything wrong with having manners, culture and expectations and people doing their part makes sense until it simply doesn't make sense for someone.

I've got no point. I just wanted to chime in somewhere even though I'm diving in like a sparrow to a random spot and then taking off again. This board is always in the back of my mind a little bit, then again at some point I think I got fed up and left for a while though I don't recall why.

I think I've always been threatened by men a bit regardless if they are angry but even more so if they are angry. On the other hand it's important for people to just be allowed to be angry right? As long as it's not the kind of anger that goes overboard. I guess it's all a matter of how it's directed and how it's worked out. Then again being angry is sort of an aggressive choice in how to deal with something, but is it a choice, doesn't it just live on it's own in it's emotional hinterland either outed or suppressed. 

sKePTiKal

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #254 on: June 26, 2020, 08:02:45 AM »
Ah... G. You do seem like one of my "little birds". I have goldfinches - saw a red one last week too; bluebirds - more correctly - indigo buntings. I enjoy them so much when they come to visit.

I guess in my way of thinking, all the emotions are like the suits & cards in a deck. They are ALL important and useful, at different times. And therefore, again to my way of thinking, there are no "bad" emotions. Expressing them in ways that are healthy is the key, I guess. I am the poster girl for NOT expressing my emotions. And I can vouch for how dysfunctional and unhealthy THAT is.

Might be worth exploring while we're still waiting out the virus... are the concepts & archetypes of the divine masculine and feminine. It's relevant to people's "inner worlds" more so than the expressions in the outer world, I think. We all have elements of both.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.