Farm Doin's - 2020

[sKePTiKal]

S'OK lighter - this needs to sit a little for everyone. And I have to get moving to get done what I intend to, need to do today.

[Hopalong]

((((Amber))))

You're thinking so hard I can smell the brainsmoke coming over the mountains.

One thing went pink-ping:

....Hol and I are going to have a very straightforward heart to heart talk - again - about ... what she's knows already about her relationship - and what has to happen for her to feel it's a two-way relationship. Or not.

The hierarchical stuff yes of course YAY. But this...my first thought about the above was, No no no nooooo. Don't have the mother telling the daughter they are going to discuss the daughter's relationship again. What she knows, what has to happen, etc. Because i-m-n-h-o (sorry) this IS a risk of over-involvement. She's 40! One of those places where at some point, the relationship needs to be LESS close. For Hol to grow up, think for herself without so much parental input or quasi-therpist parental input (cf., "transference" etc), and (soon, Lord) make wiser more self-loving decisions. Your eagerness to analyse and instruct and direct is an honest aptitude well earned, but I think in terms of this nuclear relationship, I think undermines her maturation.

THEN, you promptly solved what I was worrying about:

I believe I'm going to suggest that she find someone else - a T - to see. I think she needs to own for herself, once and for all, what a healthy relationship consists of and then create her own version of what she wants.

Yes, oh YES.

So good to read this today. Gotta run, two teenaged boys coming to weed. Aaack!

Hugs,
Hops

[lighter]

I'm with CB on the tools, except....
S would have to stop touching them altogether, always and forever.  Locking the shed,  and not allowing him to pig it up, move or destroy another thing is what I feel he's earned.  I'm not mad he got into M's tools, but I am sure there's a consequence waiting to be delivered without racor or any emotion, other than regret and sadness it's come to this.

S was warned, and pleaded with, I assume, from Hol's end.  Maybe yours too, Amber.

It doesn't really matter if Hol is upset by S being upset, bc he WILL send her to you with complaints and more threats, no doubt.

When I was dealing with this sort of sabotage from youngest dd's bf...... dd was coming to me too.  As messenger, as peace maker, as the person who felt she could control everything and everyone and I think she honestly believed she had that power. 

Over the months she learned SHE DID NOT have that power, and I'll cut right to the chase before blathering on about details....
DD went from mortified, wide eyed horror over discussion boundaries with the boy, putting them in place and following through with consequences
to
being
a
stone
cold
Amazon
Warrior
Princess
delivering
consequences
without having to think about it....
she just DID and it was MAGNIFICENT to behold.   

She'd stopped coming to me and trying to resolve issues FOR ME or for the little man and I hand't really noticed when. 

I mean..... I'm still in awe of her poise and power and calm.

I'm going to stop talking about before I jinx it.

Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

Hol and I DID have the heart to heart last night. And she brought up the relationship via the "presentation" of a couple days ago. S's insecurities are such that he really can't even talk to people - although I believe it's a style of manipulation. Putting Hol in the middle - the spokesperson - and responsible for making things OK for him. She knows this; knows that the position she's put in isn't fair. But continues to tolerate it, for the sake of affection from him - which she doesn't always get. I learned a couple more things about him that only make my opinion of him lower.

What I noticed about him early on, was that he has made a tragedy (losing his mom) from almost 20 years ago, into the excuse for his anti-social (yep; that's what it is) behavior. And there is an excuse for EVERYTHING he doesn't want to do or participate in. Couple that with a very extreme sense of entitlement. Lack of normal communication with people he LIVES with... including Hol. Its not just "I can't talk about my feelings" but the normal bits & bobs of his life, as he lived it. Normal people conversation.

He doesn't want to contribute any time, money, or energy on tasks around here - and only does so when Hol insists. He's only recently begun to remove the full kitchen trash bags and take them to the garage for instance. He wipes his hands on counters; leaves wrappers and dishes where ever he just finished... and if he's walking the woods and finishes a drink - just drops the can or bottle where ever he is. This habit infuriates both of us. Hol has said to him: why are these clothes on the floor right NEXT to the laundry basket and not IN the basket? Entitlement to the point of he expects to be taken care of as if he was an infant.

At least in her previous relationship, there was communication and interaction and socializing -- even if it was dysfunctional, many times, as he used to dismiss and deny her actual feelings as being "not correct".

She is not a novice or deluded about relationships - healthy and otherwise. And she did see a T for awhile, trying to decide if she was going to leave that former relationship or keep putting up with that treatment. She's no stranger to the kinds of manipulative mind games that can be played between two people.

S has already said that if B moves here, he isn't going to feel safe enough to stay, himself. That's just fabulously FINE to me. And Hol is addressing - and has been - this reality in the relationship for at least half of the time they've been together. She is ever the optimist, that people will grow and change... and she's attached to having someone... in that position of affection. And she will put up with this arrangement - until she doesn't. Yes she gets angry with him, expresses with finesse and detail what her wants & needs are... and there will be some small gesture before he goes back to doing just what he wants to do, when he wants to do... and everyone else can dance around that - until he decides he "needs" her attention again.

Finding out that he is rather wealthy - and COULD contribute to the expenses around here, buy his expensive food preferences (there are always two different meals prepared because he won't eat what everyone else eats - again with the excuses) - really irritates me. I asked Hol - has he ever bought you a present? Even just something small? Nope. So entitled in the extreme - and not at all cognizant of other people's feelings about that. Or he just doesn't care. Which sometimes, seems to be more the case.

None of this behavior is going to change when they move into the Hut; in fact I expect it to get even worse.

But, I'm OK right now. And of course Hol wants to start moving stuff from her storage unit - and he requires a nap - so I got recruited and need to take of myself some today.

I can't throw him out - no matter how much I want to, because it's Hol's job to deal with his behavior and the relationship. If he chooses to leave because of B... there is nothing I can do about that. She doesn't have the same level of fear over him. Just the garden-variety worry over her mom getting in a new relationship - and because she only became aware of him after we'd been friends for a LONG time; years - her perception is that this is happening too fast. (Parenting the mom; we talked a little about that last night too)

So, she and I are on the same page. She thinks this is just a passing anxiety... and that thiings will be fine with them. I didn't argue that at all

[lighter]

And so...  Hol isn't REEEEAAAALLLY demanding you dump B and change your life's plan, bc S is scared and she's so dependent on him she's willing to risk her relationship and home keep him (read that as SHUT him up, or keep the peace.
I had a hard time believing Hol would make a serious demand to dump B.  Honestly.... that would be nuts, knowing you.

It looks like she was making a show of support and doing what she could to bring about the outcome S is demanding, and that's just sad, IMO.

I'm afraid his nutsy rocksy koo koo behaviors are more seriously disordered than I want to admit. 

Here's one suggestion I have for when Hol and S move into the Hut.....
stop paying for every expense that belongs to the both of them.  Let them pay for their own groceries, even if you continue paying all overhead... utilities, etc, bc you want to, or promised to, or don't want to deal with that conversation. 

Hol will see the real him more clearly and quickly if you aren't carrying ALL of S's weight, all the time, for reasons I can't quite discern, but understand, bc I have kids too. 

I don't know how S will argue Hol has to provide the home, all the living expenses AND 100% of grocery money too, when he's 50percent or more of that expense. 

It's one thing she might see as reasonable to ask him to pay, 100perfent, on his own,  but only if you aren't making it easy for her avoid any conversation around expenses and fairness.

As much pressure as they're under now, bc of the big bad B, that pressure will get much heavier if S has to consider pulling a tiny fraction of his weight, yet refuses.  Hol has her limits. 

About everyone having their say..... S won't stand up to B and voice his concerns out loud to HIM.  He can't even do it with you.  He set up Hol to do it for him, then stood behind her and talked through her legs like a little child.

My best guess is S will continue to work on S, basically torment her, refuse to give her affection or a moment's peace until she forces YOU to comply, which, again....
is so unrealistic,  I question S' emotional stability... and Hol's to allow it.

Lighter

 

[sKePTiKal]

Yeah, as she started to confess things the whole picture changed. They won't have much to pay in utilities, since the hut is solar powered. However, there IS a learning curve involved in it... and Hol is the only one motivated to learn it. She HAS serious concerns about the relationship - but refuses to deal with it - while she's in my house. She has indicated that the hut will be a different story, but time will tell. I think part of that is wishful thinking; I see her resentments bubble up & over; and he doesn't even manage to provide her with actual companionship - because he won't engage with her on planning or projects - just leaves everything up to her.

His actions - being taken care of, almost every need - and EXPECTING that, leads me to the conclusion that everything is about him, in his reality. He doesn't give a crap about me, for sure. And it's truly questionable if he really cares about Hol or not. Since he's well off, then the golddigger aspect doesn't play. But why doesn't he feel responsible for carrying his own weight? Only thing I can think of is a stunted need to be mommied and entitlement. And she falls for that, since she is still dealing with her own "need to be needed" - and rescue.

The boy - he's not a man - has some serious issues and escapes from dealing with them. And I believe her when she says she's not going to waste another almost decade of her life, doing all the work in a relationship. I can't repeat what B thinks about him. He did say, that if S came to him, he'd answer any questions he might have and if he had a problem with B - that she should bring them directly to him instead of playing these games.

What I'm currently thinking... is that I'm going to detach from all this. She is beginning to move in - and it's like pulling teeth to get him to help. It doesn't take a mindreader to see her disappointment over all that. I "think" there is a strong possibility that he's getting ready to bail on her. But it's HER relationship. And they are physically healthy grown adults. Plenty of opportunities to work around here and take care of yourselves. I fulfilled my promise - building the hut. I still own it. Everything else is on them. I am just exhausted from the constant drama of all this. Since there ARE boundaries and I know she can take care of herself... but she expected an actual partner - not a dependent she had to cater to his every mood/whim. I am also going to maintain some control over land use, too. It's going to be tricky legally... but I believe there is a way.

In some ways, this is actually good for her to go through... with my feedback and observations and how I think about things. I would NOT be doing what she is doing... but I'm not her. I don't push her, just give her my perspective and she can do with that as she will... but she is NOT happy and she knows it.

[lighter]

I locked all my tools up from my renter on the island.  I strongly suggest you consider taking control of your tools back.  Perhaps let S sign them out, one at a time, IF he returns and respects them if you gets to use them at all.  It sounds like he has his own tools, or ability to purchase them if he wants to mistreat tools.   

It's sad if it comes to that, but thems the consequences for failure to respectfully use and return tools in good condition, IMO.

You aren't punishing him.  You aren't trying to create problems with Hol.  You're taking care of yourself and your property.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

((((Amber))))

I don't know from the legal stuff.

What's a land lease about? Is it necessary for the hut for some reason?

Just wondering why the whole kit and kaboodle can't just remain all yours, period, until you go to that great building project in the sky. But maybe it is, and I just don't know what I'm talking about.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Lighter, if I could, I would lock things up. Logistical reasons; practical reasons; why that's not possible. But that, IMO, is the least of the issues here. This is more of a - you don't bite the hand that feeds you lesson for S... and no work-y, no eat-y. I've gotten several spontaneous genuine "thank you" hugs from Hol - but never once have those words left his mouth... like he's a "little prince" and just expects everything to flow to him from everyone.

Yes Hops, I still own everything; I will pay the additional taxes on the hut - and it's my house too, until I ride off into the sunset. The land lease lets them rent use of X amount of land and gives them a legal basis to residence in the hut, without it being a rental situation or creating an additional income (and taxable income) situation for me.

It's an understatement to say I don't like this aspect of him. And given that the rest of the time, he simply lurks around here like a ghost (except for working on HIS stuff) I truly don't know much else about him. But often our children hook up with people we don't like. I don't have to like him... but one thing you simply do NOT do, is make a personal demand from one's benefactor (his checkbook balance aside) in an attempt to protect your male ego territorial rights. Especially, when you don't step up into that role of protector, provider and equal partner. I can see where B would threaten him that way. But then, most people would try to talk through those kinds of things and get to know - or at least SPEAK to a new person that's coming into your home, or at least where you're living, if you were concerned, right?

B isn't a physically big guy. Divers are necessarily smaller to get into awkward places working on ships & subs. He also doesn't project a dominating, controlling or "bad person" menacing energy around him - in public or private. He's capable, yes. So this is all S's insecurities, and I haven't seen enough redeeming qualities to consider him a permanent "feature" here. Not with how close he is to ex-girlfriends. One of which, seems to have the same entitlement attitude he does. She was dropping broad hints to Hol during the last visit (oh, yes... I'm so intolerent & rigid, right?  /read: sarcasm) about designing/building her own house out here.  EXCUSE ME???? I don't think so.

It's not like I had much of a choice about S moving in here. Hol presented it to me; was dead set on it; and it would've definitely risked our relationship for me to say no. And I've been bringing my wishes & concerns to her about his behavior ever since. That has covered the continuum, of me asking her to ask him - since he doesn't talk to me or acknowledge me when I talk to him - to modify his habits/behavior... to my nuclear melt-down over the tools when I was trying to work.

She is definitely squarely in the middle here. And I know the same things that irritate me are going to irritate her when they don't change. I know that he doesn't have clue one what the word commitment means. But it's like if she brought home a stray dog that had problematic behaviors that weren't able to be changed or commandable - and has the clear & obvious traits of turning on you. (And yes, that fact about not being able to change people when they tell you who they are, came out my mouth during the group meeting in front of him.) I am going out of my way to not make her misery any bigger than it is, and to remain non-confrontational or force her into any decisions. But I'm not letting her try to polish this turd and pretend she's happy when she's not. She brings up issues often, before I utter a word. And since I express emotions with my whole body - she clearly knows when I'm upset or angry.

Until she makes the decision on her own, that this isn't what she wants to live with... I feel like my hands are tied. But then, I've also been running through a couple hard & fast "no's" that might be forthcoming after I've calmed down a little. As far as I'm concerned - if B's presence here, without any overt actions on his part - is so upsetting to S that he must leave - I don't really care. And if Hol is fool enough to chase after him, I won't try to stop her. This guy is a player, a taker, and he doesn't WANT to fit in and participate and shoulder the work here. And he doesn't care anywhere in his psyche want anyone else wants.

Not something I want around here. Period. My concern is Hol; and getting her the therapy she needs to stop repeating this pattern. Her anxiety levels are off the charts; and so is her energy to "do". She is positively excited about moving into the hut and his resigned, OK, I'll help you do that - if we can do this tomorrow - and no, I require a nap or food, or a walk right now instead - is truly grating on her. When she wants to be heard & her feelings/thoughts/ideas validated she seeks me out... because he really only sees her as the object that provides for his needs/wants and just isn't there for her - or gets angry at her for disturbing him.

I know what happens when resentments build up over a long time of trying to resolve a problem that only gets pushed off the table because it's not "convenient" at this very moment.

[Hopalong]

Oh, that makes sense. (Land lease and tax planning.) Got it.

Is Hol aware that she can go online and find nearby Ts who work online and some who specialize in abusive relationships, etc? If she is, is there a need for you to find a T for her or can she find her own?

Do you think discussing S with B a lot, and/or H & S's feelings of threat about B, will make it easier or more difficult for B to anticipate his life with you on the mountain? Just wondering if holding back most of that might be healthier for you two starting out together IRL, so he doesn't get drawn into drama that's not his? Or feel something toxic will be going on out of the gate?

I know you can't wait for this new chapter to begin, and I hope it is all the wonderful you're hoping for. Can't see why it wouldn't be, if S & H are not allowed to hijack it.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Lighter, if I could, I would lock things up. Logistical reasons; practical reasons; why that's not possible. But that, IMO, is the least of the issues here.  This is more of a - you don't bite the hand that feeds you lesson for S... and no work-y, no eat-y.  I've gotten several spontaneous genuine "thank you" hugs from Hol - but never once have those words left his mouth... like he's a "little prince" and just expects everything to flow to him from everyone.

Yes Hops, I still own everything; I will pay the additional taxes on the hut - and it's my house too, until I ride off into the sunset. The land lease lets them rent use of X amount of land and gives them a legal basis to residence in the hut, without it being a rental situation or creating an additional income (and taxable income) situation for me.

It's an understatement to say I don't like this aspect of him. And given that the rest of the time, he simply lurks around here like a ghost (except for working on HIS stuff) I truly don't know much else about him. But often our children hook up with people we don't like. I don't have to like him... but one thing you simply do NOT do, is make a personal demand from one's benefactor (his checkbook balance aside) in an attempt to protect your male ego territorial rights. Especially, when you don't step up into that role of protector, provider and equal partner. I can see where B would threaten him that way. But then, most people would try to talk through those kinds of things and get to know - or at least SPEAK to a new person that's coming into your home, or at least where you're living, if you were concerned, right?

B isn't a physically big guy. Divers are necessarily smaller to get into awkward places working on ships & subs. He also doesn't project a dominating, controlling or "bad person" menacing energy around him - in public or private. He's capable, yes. So this is all S's insecurities, and I haven't seen enough redeeming qualities to consider him a permanent "feature" here. Not with how close he is to ex-girlfriends. One of which, seems to have the same entitlement attitude he does. She was dropping broad hints to Hol during the last visit (oh, yes... I'm so intolerent & rigid, right?  /read: sarcasm) about designing/building her own house out here.  EXCUSE ME???? I don't think so.

It's not like I had much of a choice about S moving in here. Hol presented it to me; was dead set on it; and it would've definitely risked our relationship for me to say no. And I've been bringing my wishes & concerns to her about his behavior ever since. That has covered the continuum, of me asking her to ask him - since he doesn't talk to me or acknowledge me when I talk to him - to modify his habits/behavior... to my nuclear melt-down over the tools when I was trying to work.

She is definitely squarely in the middle here. And I know the same things that irritate me are going to irritate her when they don't change. I know that he doesn't have clue one what the word commitment means. But it's like if she brought home a stray dog that had problematic behaviors that weren't able to be changed or commandable - and has the clear & obvious traits of turning on you. (And yes, that fact about not being able to change people when they tell you who they are, came out my mouth during the group meeting in front of him.) I am going out of my way to not make her misery any bigger than it is, and to remain non-confrontational or force her into any decisions. But I'm not letting her try to polish this turd and pretend she's happy when she's not. She brings up issues often, before I utter a word. And since I express emotions with my whole body - she clearly knows when I'm upset or angry.

Until she makes the decision on her own, that this isn't what she wants to live with... I feel like my hands are tied. But then, I've also been running through a couple hard & fast "no's" that might be forthcoming after I've calmed down a little. As far as I'm concerned - if B's presence here, without any overt actions on his part - is so upsetting to S that he must leave - I don't really care. And if Hol is fool enough to chase after him, I won't try to stop her. This guy is a player, a taker, and he doesn't WANT to fit in and participate and shoulder the work here. And he doesn't care anywhere in his psyche want anyone else wants.

Not something I want around here. Period. My concern is Hol; and getting her the therapy she needs to stop repeating this pattern. Her anxiety levels are off the charts; and so is her energy to "do". She is positively excited about moving into the hut and his resigned, OK, I'll help you do that - if we can do this tomorrow - and no, I require a nap or food, or a walk right now instead - is truly grating on her. When she wants to be heard & her feelings/thoughts/ideas validated she seeks me out... because he really only sees her as the object that provides for his needs/wants and just isn't there for her - or gets angry at her for disturbing him.

I know what happens when resentments build up over a long time of trying to resolve a problem that only gets pushed off the table because it's not "convenient" at this very moment.

[sKePTiKal]

Dunno Hops. I get to hear all his drama, so he might as well hear about mine. And it feels more honest & full disclosure-ish to let him know what exists here. So he can decide if he can let me deal with it, or get involved at my request (and within limits) or if he'd rather avoid it at all costs. He knows I'm handling it OK for now; and he doesn't need to ride to my rescue. I am confident he wouldn't do that unless I specifically asked him.

Yeah, we have that level of honesty & vulnerability between us now. He's not without courage emotionally - even as much as he's been hurt previously. He won't add problems to the situation either. Hol is MOSTLY OK with him, and right now that's the only other person that counts. And she doesn't figure that largely in the picture. If I can let her relationship BE - despite what I see, I know she will let mine be too.

Neither of us is a stranger to toxic; it's a PITA BECAUSE we have so much experience with it - but that's ALL it is, despite my freak out the other day.

[lighter]

Lighter, if I could, I would lock things up. Logistical reasons; practical reasons; why that's not possible. But that, IMO, is the least of the issues here. This is more of a - you don't bite the hand that feeds you lesson for S... and no work-y, no eat-y.  Oh, Amber.  There's a difference between us.... when my stomach "clicks" as my father used to say... that's IT.  That man would be told the tools are OFF LIMITS to him and why.  I did that with my "renter" on the island..... I took the keys.  I told him WHY I took the keys.  I was sorry I had to remove his access to the tools, bc I'm sure it impacted his life in a very striking way.  It didn't matter.  He never would have been respectful of the tools, no matter how I asked. 

You might not be able to lock the tools up BUT you can put boundaries in place... S CAN'T GO INTO THE TOOL SHED or borrow tools any longer bc A, B,  C and D.

About his refusal to contribute, express gratitude (maybe he feels it?  I have no idea) or honor you as a human being..... you can't control that and I know better than to try.  THAT has to be worked out by Hol.  Watching you set and hold boundaries will help Hol feel better about doing it herself, when the time comes, if the time comes.  Just saying.... tools, in my family, are sacred.  We return them in better shape than we borrowed them.  Them's the rules.  I've gotten several spontaneous genuine "thank you" hugs from Hol - but never once have those words left his mouth... like he's a "little prince" and just expects everything to flow to him from everyone.

Whatever he expects.... you can't know.  What he's allowed to take and have, from you and your coffers, is another matter. 


It's an understatement to say I don't like this aspect of him. And given that the rest of the time, he simply lurks around here like a ghost (except for working on HIS stuff) I truly don't know much else about him. But often our children hook up with people we don't like. I don't have to like him... but one thing you simply do NOT do, is make a personal demand from one's benefactor (his checkbook balance aside) in an attempt to protect your male ego territorial rights. I don't don't care WHY he's behaving as though he's experiencing a psychotic break with reality.  I DO care he's doing it TO you, while leveraging Hol emotionally.  His inability to reason or use logic is concerning,  IMO.    Especially, when you don't step up into that role of protector, provider and equal partner. I can see where B would threaten him that way. But then, most people would try to talk through those kinds of things and get to know - or at least SPEAK to a new person that's coming into your home, or at least where you're living, if you were concerned, right?   So appears to be acting as a child acts..... asking his mother/protector/caretaker to his dirty work, while avoiding direct confrontation or accepting responsibility for his actions and words... for forcing Hol to make irrational demands on YOU.   S can't see how......
how.....
what IS this request/demand/threat he's forcing Hol to make on his behalf...
of you and B?

It's something a child would do.  I saw my brother do it when he was about 7 yo..... it's very childlike.  I've seen no indication S is an adult, in any sense of the word.  IF he's a 7yo child, and I suspect he is.... what does that mean?  I haven't thought about it much, but food for thought.

Perhaps he'd respond positively to being spoken to like he's a child>? 

B isn't a physically big guy. Divers are necessarily smaller to get into awkward places working on ships & subs. He also doesn't project a dominating, controlling or "bad person" menacing energy around him - in public or private. He's capable, yes. So this is all S's insecurities, and I haven't seen enough redeeming qualities to consider him a permanent "feature" here. Not with how close he is to ex-girlfriends. One of which, seems to have the same entitlement attitude he does. She was dropping broad hints to Hol during the last visit (oh, yes... I'm so intolerent & rigid, right?  /read: sarcasm) about designing/building her own house out here.  EXCUSE ME???? I don't think so.
OMG the entitlement craziness is catching! 

It's not like I had much of a choice about S moving in here. Hol presented it to me; was dead set on it; and it would've definitely risked our relationship for me to say no. I think you did just the rigth thing, Amber.  And I've been bringing my wishes & concerns to her about his behavior ever since. When I informed youngest dd I was going to bring my concerns TO her young bf, dd got much more invested in problem solving, which meant SHE was let down, over and over again, by the boy in very poignant, impossible to miss or ignore ways.  I feel this was part of why she SAW who he is, and I was only saying out loud what I was GOING TO DO.... speak directly to bf, lay out my boundaries and consequences for failing to comply.  DD really wanted to skip that, though there were times she seemed relieved she could step down... she was at the point she WANTED me to speak up.That has covered the continuum, of me asking her to ask him - since he doesn't talk to me or acknowledge me when I talk to him - to modify his habits/behavior... to my nuclear melt-down over the tools when I was trying to work.  He really shouldn't have access or the right to use your tools,  Amber.... IME, of course.

She is definitely squarely in the middle here. And I know the same things that irritate me are going to irritate her when they don't change. You betch'a. I know that he doesn't have clue one what the word commitment means. I don't care what he feels or thinks or knows.   I care that Hol is drawn to men who criticize her, don't support her and can't enter into adult reciprocal relationships.  I care about her seeing this, and deciding if that's what she wants to spend her time doing, or not. But it's like if she brought home a stray dog that had problematic behaviors that weren't able to be changed or commandable - and has the clear & obvious traits of turning on you. (And yes, that fact about not being able to change people when they tell you who they are, came out my mouth during the group meeting in front of him.) I am going out of my way to not make her misery any bigger than it is, and to remain non-confrontational or force her into any decisions. Just as long as you aren't allowing your boundaries to be crossed.  It's right and good to allow Hol to make her decisions about her boundaries.  It's not OK for her or S to decide what you have a rigth to protect, for yourself, or not, IME.  YOu get to set those boundaries, regardless of any discomfort it creates for Hol or S.  That's how it works.  You show Hol how to DO it.  Hol feels more pressure and has the chance to understand what she's up against more quickly IF you hold your boundaries for your own sake... nothing to do with making choices for Hol.  Just you and your stuff.But I'm not letting her try to polish this turd and pretend she's happy when she's not. She brings up issues often, before I utter a word. And since I express emotions with my whole body - she clearly knows when I'm upset or angry.
Maybe try saying...
"let me know how that works out for you."

There's something chilling to FEEL lone is completely on their own, when in a bad situation.  To be left to their own devices.... all the energy Mom puts into it.... withdrawn, sans emotion.  Besides, Hol knows how you feel.  Saying it or showing it again hasn't worked.  Maybe pulling back entirely, in regard to her relationship to S, will help Hol reflect.

Until she makes the decision on her own, that this isn't what she wants to live with... I feel like my hands are tied. But then, I've also been running through a couple hard & fast "no's" that might be forthcoming after I've calmed down a little. As far as I'm concerned - if B's presence here, without any overt actions on his part - is so upsetting to S that he must leave - I don't really care. And if Hol is fool enough to chase after him, I won't try to stop her.  That's the spirit, Amber.
 Wish them well, then go back to your joy.  Show Hol how it's done. This guy is a player, a taker, and he doesn't WANT to fit in and participate and shoulder the work here. And he doesn't care anywhere in his psyche want anyone else wants.  That's only your problem with regard to his touching YOUR things.... with you giving or not giving him things and food out of your own pocket, and how he affects Hol.

Unfortunately, all you can do is what you're doing... keep your hands off the HOL/S relationship, and focus on you and your stuff.  I say consider telling him he's not allowed to touch your tools.  I'm n ot sure why this is a problem.   

Not something I want around here. Period. My concern is Hol; and getting her the therapy she needs to stop repeating this pattern. Exactly.Her anxiety levels are off the charts; and so is her energy to "do". She is positively excited about moving into the hut and his resigned, OK, I'll help you do that - if we can do this tomorrow - and no, I require a nap or food, or a walk right now instead - is truly grating on her. When she wants to be heard & her feelings/thoughts/ideas validated she seeks me out... because he really only sees her as the object that provides for his needs/wants and just isn't there for her - or gets angry at her for disturbing him.  You have great compassion for her and her plight.  I hope you find ways to help Hol feel the weight of her situation.... so she doesn't feel you're carrying it with her.  Let her have the entire weight of it, Amber.. if you can.   

Hol's a smart girl.  She cares what you think.  It'possible she'll care more if she doesn't feel you're walking with her on this difficult path.  You don't have to share your opinion one more time... she already knows.  Lighter


I know what happens when resentments build up over a long time of trying to resolve a problem that only gets pushed off the table because it's not "convenient" at this very moment. 

[sKePTiKal]

I don't know if it'll help Lighter... but Hol set up my garage - where the auto tools are - for him, with barely a "by your leave". It was another of her - this is happening - and the situation immediately went down the tubes. Yes, she has stuff stored there for now too. She can't stand to walk in there and look at it either. So he uses the tools from the large tool chests and just sets them down. Inside; Outside where they rust. (The infamous shovel DID show up again. It'll need some TLC when B get here, to get the rust off and put an edge back on it. I bought another one and HID IT. But the meltdown I had over tools was effective; even tho both Hol & I were afraid I was gonna stroke out right then. I just hate the meltdowns immensely. One shouldn't have to go to those extremes to get the point across that it's a BOUNDARY.)

[lighter]

All that is necessary, to get a boundary across, is to enforce the consequences consistently, IME.   

Calmly.

Without emotion, but with conviction and follow through that never fails, IME.   

It's unclear to me whether S is still allowed to borrow, lose, misplace and destroy your tools, or not.

I suspect B will clarify the situation, when he arrives, if it's not cleared up before then.

You don't need a man to do that for you, Amber.

Lighter