Histrionic PD

[gratitude28]

Hi All! I haven't been on here in ages. My (N)M is no less crazy, but at least others in my life realize her as being abnormal. I have a question for you - have you read about Histrionic Personality Disorder? This seems much like what we describe here and I am not sure of the differences. I am thinking it may apply to my M in many ways. Here is a link.
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disorders/personality_disorders/hic_histrionic_personality_disorder.aspx
Would love to hear your opinions/insights.
Beth

[Meh]

Hum, I'm not certain how experts tell the difference. Robin Williams I think is an example of histrionic behavior....it's like over the top and flamboyant lots of physical gesticulation. I sort of think about NPD as being conniving without all of the exaggerations.

There is cross over you know. People don't fit neatly into a category sometimes.

Also the "experts" get together and rewrite this stuff from time to time and even they can't always agree on how to organize these things or if they should even exist.

I would say there is a difference though. My mother seems more Narcissistic without a lot of Histrionic traits. There would be some Narcissistic people though who would have histrionic type traits possibly. There could also be Histrionic people who had Narcissistic traits. That's why people get PhD's in this stuff.

You know the Narcissists think they are better than other people.
Histrionics want to show you that..... they have something to show you. Hey look!! Hey I'm crying!!! Now I'm laughing!!! Now I'm jumping. Wait no go away...no I was just kidding...no really go away....but I'm going to stand right in front of you while you are walking away....because I'm walking away faster than you...what you are going home?....okay, not before I cry first.  

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ICD-10
F60.4 Histrionic Personality Disorder

Personality disorder characterized by at least 3 of the following:

(a) self-dramatization, theatricality, exaggerated expression of emotions;
(b) suggestibility, easily influenced by others or by circumstances;
(c) shallow and labile affectivity;
(d) continual seeking for excitement, appreciation by others, and activities in which the patient is the centre of attention;
(e) inappropriate seductiveness in appearance or behaviour;
(f) over-concern with physical attractiveness.

Associated features may include egocentricity, self-indulgence, continuous longing for appreciation, feelings that are easily hurt, and persistent manipulative behaviour to achieve own needs.

Includes:
* hysterical and psychoinfantile personality (disorder)
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Miss Piggy might be a histrionic. She might be antisocial also. Maybe a Narcissist
Kermit might be normal.
Animal would definitely be antisocial.




So Narcissism defined by Hotchkiss:
1) Bad boundaries
2) Exploitation
3) Entitlement
4) Envy
5) Arrogance
6) Magical thinking
7) Shamelessness

[JustKathy]

Interesting that you should bring this up. I was watching a talk show last night, and a reference was made to a celebrity having Histrionic Personality Disorder (might have been Dr. Drew who said it, though I don't remember).

I agree that disturbed people don't all fit neatly into perfect packages, and that many show traits of several disorders. My N-mother doesn't give a rat's hooey about her appearance (if anything, it's the opposite), but will act out and behave inappropriately when she's not the center of attention, so I would have to say that she has some Histrionic traits on top of the NPD. I have also had more than one psych tell me that she has sociopathic tendencies because of her racism and general hatred towards anyone who isn't deemed to be a member of the same perceived social class as her (and she perceives herself as royalty, so anyone below Queen Elizabeth is a waste of oxygen in her book).

I think that all of us with N mothers can find that they have a combination of at least 2 or more disorders in various degrees. After all, they ARE mentally ill. Their brains do not function normally, so most likely have many issues beyond one textbook disorder. That's my take, anyway.

[gratitude28]

That makes a lot of sense that the two (or more) diorders could add to one sick person. Especially since the roots of both disorders seem to be the same - overattenion or a lack of attention.... Looking at the list of NPD traits again, she definitely has the overinflation of self, magical thinking (that one always amazes me) - honestly, everything on the NPD list plus a lot of the histrionic tendencies. I'd be curious to see how docs mix the two or separate them. Will do some digging today out of sheer interest.

[gratitude28]

Here is an article I found on histrionic vs narcissistic personality DOs.

http://suite101.com/article/histrionic--narcissistic-personality-disorder-a214475

Also - and a bit more descriptive...

http://www.disorders.org/narcissistic-histrionic/

[Meh]

I had never heard this term before "The Inverted Narcissist" aka "Covert Narcissist"

So counter dependent or co-dependent

[Meh]

Just an off the wall reference to histrionic, I guess is lawyers are desperate to come up with something:

http://www.examiner.com/article/jerry-sandusky-guilty-what-is-histrionic-personality-disorder

[SilverLining]

Hey Beth.   I came across the HPD concept a couple of years ago when trying to figure out my mother.  As others have suggested above there seems to be a lot of crossover symptoms.  With my mother, a few of the pieces really fit, especially during her breakdown episodes.   She has the exaggerrated display of emotions, over concern with issues of appearance, and seeking to be the center of attention.   She doesn't do the seductive sexual display, and in fact seems to have an issue with men/sex in general.   I suppose she wouldn't qualify as a full blown HPD.  But the list of histrionic traits has been helpful to me in realizing there are some obvious personality problems going on with her.     

So I have a histrionic mother and a possibly Asperger Syndrome father.  Is it any wonder I was so bewildered for so long..

[gratitude28]

Yeah, Silver, I know what you mean I thought I was the problem for so long. Weird when I started seeing what was really going on. And, of course, we never fully know what is the "answer." We just have to take what we know and understand and apply it to how we deal with the people in our lives. Overall, it makes life easier to have knowledge
Salsa, the Sandusky case was what brought the HPD to light for me. I think he's just a plain evil pedophile, but I had not heard of that PD before and many of the symptoms were similar. Still, NM seems to fit the NPD so much more cleanly. She does act seductively, but is totally weird about sex at the same time. She thinks women who "do it" are sluts, but sees its a great way to get attention. Kind of sad, as it looks from the outside like a big lot of self-hatred.

[Meh]

I will second that all of this stuff is bewildering. Sigh.

[sKePTiKal]

Hi Beth! Nice to see you again... at least virtually, hee-hee!

Thanks for this thread. The timing is remarkable - I really need it at the moment. LONG story... and doesn't belong here. I don't have a lot of time to get caught up online right now - or least, not just yet. Soon.

Thanks Salsa... for the short lists of symptoms, too. That helps me sort out a dark, ugly mess.

Anyone find anything relating to life-experiences that might begin to explain a "cause" [via reaction; self-defense mechanism] for HPD or the hybrid of N & HPD? I read some case histories once that went a long way to describing how a few people became Ns... think I kept the book... It was like they came to a fork in their life's road and went the "wrong" way. Or do most experts believe that people are born Ns? just the way they develop in the womb, genetics, and then nurture/life adds it's influence? Like with BPD- my T told me that borderline people are born that way... but then, it's accepted that in some cases of PTSD, and some sexual/child abuse victims... that the same set of symptoms (maybe call this "pseudo-BDP"?) can present themselves.

[SilverLining]

Yeah, Silver, I know what you mean I thought I was the problem for so long. Weird when I started seeing what was really going on. And, of course, we never fully know what is the "answer." We just have to take what we know and understand and apply it to how we deal with the people in our lives. Overall, it makes life easier to have knowledge

Same here.   I figured  I must be the problem.  And since my mother insists on blaming everything in her life on something outside herself, she helped form my interpretation.  Everybody else is an active agent, but she is a victim.  So I and the sibs grew up tiptoeing around, making sure not to trigger a "breakdown".   When one happened, she never had any problem blaming someone else.  

And the interpretations of the N's make figuring out the cause (of their problems and our own) even more challenging.  My mother has had plenty to say about the supposedly dreadful conditions and abuses she endured in her own FOO.  So it's pretty clear she doesn't believe her own nature is the cause of her problems.  

But in my forties  I started to question these stories, which had become something of a  family mythology.  Her assessment of her own situation is part of her personality problem.   When she's "up" she'll have at least a few positive comments about people.  But then she cycles to a more negative frame of mind, and everybody outside her gets  turned into a villain.  

[gratitude28]

Silver - funny, NM is the opposite about her family. She paints a picture of perfection and sweetness. She would have you believe she lived in a castle and had ponies in her bedroom and maids to clean up after them. I think the truth is much uglier. And as far as blame... you are so right - everyone else causes their own problems and brings problems on themselves. ANything that happens to HER is becuase people are stupid.
Hi Phoenix!!! Missed you!!! Would love to hear your story when you have time and the energy... I think I believe that the N is created - but very early on. I think there is some moment at 3 - 5 when the person freezes and never matures. I have read that this is what many believe. I don't think it's a physical (chemical) imbalance like BPD or schizophrenia. I also don't believe it's treatable, unfortuntely. I don't think they can come out of the fantasy world they create to see reality. They are so much like children who design a world they want to live in and then make everyone around fit into the show or else close their eyes and wish them away. Pathetic and awful. Hurtful and shameful to those around them.

[Meh]

I've also read just as you have stated above that Narcissists get stuck at a young age specifically two. Terrible twos.

medial prefrontal cortex--self centered thinking (younger people use more)
temporo parietal junction-- thought focused on others (older people use more)

[BonesMS]

I've also read just as you have stated above that Narcissists get stuck at a young age specifically two. Terrible twos.

medial prefrontal cortex--self centered thinking (younger people use more)
temporo parietal junction-- thought focused on others (older people use more)

The "Terrible Twos" behavior sounds right.  Watch how an N reacts to the word "No"!  Their N-tantrum is NOT pretty!

Bones