Histrionic PD

[Hopalong]

((((PR)))

I'm so glad you poured out about A.

I couldn't add a useful word to what's been said by wiser souls, but send you all comfort.

Hops

[Meh]

My mother likes to present a picture of material and financial poverty.  But I've seen where she lived and know they were in relatively good shape for the era.

These stories then become rationalizations for how they treat their own offspring.  My mother always considers her own material needs before others.  But that's because she was so badly deprived growing up.  

Twisted, twisted, twisted and crinkled and melted on a windshield and run-over

ufff...yeah....it's twisted....and you state it pretty clearly. I'm understanding it even more right now.

I don't think there is any way a young person could understand what we are able to understand. Often times I wish I could have comprehended more fully that the problem wasn't all me when I was younger--but it's too complicated for kids to fully figure out--

I get the same thing there is some sort of """""rationalization"""""....Okay is that enough quotes. There is some sort of so called rationalization about how my Nar-mother was deprived. Maybe she was or wasn't but there is something about the logic that isn't logic. It's not rational.

Financial issues and emotional issues are two different items. I know people with financial issues are more stressed. Still it doesn't make 100% sense. IF what the Nar says about being deprived at some point in time now explains their actions today.... if this were logical then the opposite would hold up-- privileged people would be the most compassionate, generous, engaged, interested, caring, thoughtful, well rounded etc.

I think there were times when my mother was poor but there is still something missing in the whole picture to me. I've met poorish people who do hold sanity together even though their finances are not great. My mother also always ALWAYS had someone taking care of her, she actually never has lived independently to my knowledge. In her stories she is always alone and nobody ever helped her. Her father bought her a condo to live in. The men that she was with were always alcoholics and she never had a problem with it and she still doesn't have a problem with it SHE like alcoholics. She was never a beaten woman trying to get away from them or abhorring them, she liked them quite a lot.

These people have emotional problems that transcend any amount of resources they have or do not have.

I know I can speak for myself in saying that money is important even imperative for some things but even when I have good income I still have issues. But I know I have them.

There is a story about my great grandparents and one of them was in an orphanage, the other was an indentured servant. So the story goes that my great grandmother "went to live with nuns at an orphanage".....and yes I think it is true but it was a different time and different place and my mother never met these old relatives anyhow.

My mother suggested to me that I should become a nun. Just an out of the blue off the wall suggestion.

I was like: "I'm not sure people do that anymore, and do you know where the nearest convent is"? To which she had no response.    

I mean I know in her weird, weird mind there is some correlation there between the story of a great grandparent "being raised by nuns in an orphanage and her telling me to become a nun. We are not even extremely religious. She never got me baptized, never prayed before meals. Rarely went to church.

Anyways, Narcissism doesn't get enough weight on the whole crazy scale...Narcissism doesn't really have the aura of crazy about it BUT when I really think about what they must be thinking it's the weirdest logic ever.

There is no winning sometimes, there is not even common neutral ground sometimes. All they are going to do is flip out etc.

I think telling someone to become a nun is sort of like telling someone to become a rockstar or the President. Not that there is anything wrong with being a nun it's just that there are not a whole lot of them around here and it's a pretty special calling for the people who have it.

Maybe she is a two year old in there. An insane two year old.

[sKePTiKal]

We could be here a long, long, long, infinitely long time trying to figure out, speculate about, trying to imagine and put ourselves in their shoes... about how Ns became Ns. And even when it is possible to cobble together some kind of narrative (sensible or not)... they're still gonna be Ns and they're still gonna be nutz. We all do this, btw - yours truly included. It's as if we hope we can pinpoint the trigger of the problem in time travel to the past and intervene -- to a happier ending. Sometimes, doing this... we can advance our work to "understand without knowing all the facts"... to accept, be kind to them... and yet adamantly do what we need to do for ourselves.

Salsa - I think the biggest "clue" shows up in what you wrote about your mom's history. To me, it sounds like she's hung on to some bitter, awful emotion... and it seems impossible for her to let it go, or understand it, or see how it's actually controlling and defining her in ways that totally screw up her relationships with everyone except alcoholics. She is not aware she's doing this. In some ways, I can see my D being this way as well. It's like some people - for a variety of reasons - become just as addicted as an alcoholic -- to the role they play, to the self-importance of being the sober one -- all kinds of different things. Or, like in my D's case: if you can't beat them, join them...

And they wear a mask - of how they're OK despite everything they've suffered on the timeline of the past, present - and of course, they even suffer the future... because they feel powerless, helpless, to let go of their inner agony... and just change. Usually they are very competent people - under all the self-limitations they impose on themselves... the abyss which is never crossed, always reappears, which keeps them locked into whatever is under the mask. Honestly, I don't know HOW T's survive their exposure to their patients when they truly are PD people. Talk about front line, trench warfare!

Here's the thing that I think was the substance of the nightmare I screamed myself awake to:

We've all studied those personal histories in depth; learned tons and a half about PDs and abuse; learned to experience (without anxiety) levels of caring and intimacy with each other here. We trust each other to hear us out... and help us see into some of those darker corners. In a way, we've collectively become experts and mastered the material knowledge (seasoned with a lot of personal experience) of this subset of humanity. Yet, for all that -- we're no closer to really UNDERSTANDING "crazy" or being able to alter the past to avoid the crazy in the first place. Because we're not one of them; we're NOT crazy. And whether that's a function of working through our own problems, years of therapy, or just "waking up" one day and asking the right questions... we're not stuck. We change, learn, let things go... move on with our lives.

My dream was that I was sleeping and awakened by a sound. I got up in the dark to investigate and saw a person through several doorways. I called out: "who are you and what are you doing in my house?" and the person ran away. I followed and when I reached the threshold of the last doorway, I looked left: and faced malevolence in a mask which was reaching clawed hands for my throat. I started screaming the name of my friend from high school. (no clue why her... might've been irrelevant... but maybe not; we "mothered" each other through some rough times over the years).

If we chase "crazy" people and try to figure out who they are and why they're in our lives - maybe we're opening ourselves up to being a victim of the "crazy" again. Maybe we're reminding ourselves that we can't fix them; we can't time travel; we can't "undo" anything except those things about ourselves. That I know we can do - call it what you will - rewiring our brain, changing habits, forgiveness, epiphany, whatever. The experience itself matters way more than what it's called.

Hops, Thank You! The amazing thing about first just "spilling the beans" about something that troubles me via writing it all out - and hearing everyone's great responses - and truly feeling the release of the outcome of the situation... is that there is a wonderful peaceful acceptance (even if I still dislike certain details) and comfort. I've done my part as mom. The rest is up to her -- and she absolutely HAS to do it herself. No matter how painful it is. She is not a 5 year old, and if she's pulling a 4.0 then she is smart enough to figure out what she needs and go get it. And if she thinks she doesn't "need" it... it's not my place to change her mind. I don't know if having her sister and I walk into her darkness with her and get some of it on us in the process - will register with her. If it provides any insight or relief or self-awareness. Just no clue. But it was instinctive on H's and my part... to let her know a) she's not alone and we care about her and b) it IS possible to get to the other side and be done with it.

Now we wait & see what happens. Meanwhile, she's not "shunned"... we're not NC... and it's not like she has to prove anything to us; she needs to prove it to herself.

[Meh]

We could be here a long, long, long, infinitely long time trying to figure out, speculate about, trying to imagine and put ourselves in their shoes... about how Ns became Ns.

Well, then I guess for some people it's a blessing that the board exists and it's great that it sounds like you are ready to move on with your life and no longer have the need to write long in-depth inquiries or blurbs about yourself etc.

Let other people do what they need to do Phoenix.

I don't have to chase crazy people because I literally live with them and can't get away from them. It's almost 6 AM here, I'm getting ready to go to another temp job and my freakin 50-60 something yr old neighbor is awake talking to herself saying   "I wanna go home, I wanna go home, I wanna go home.....and then she goes into the  "F*ck you B*tch",.. "Fck you B*itch",... "F@ck you bitch"....."Fck, you B*tch...it's a routine. It's like my early morning rooster crowing.
She starts many of her days with the same refrain and lucky me, I have to listen to it. She brags about being an ex-prostitute or something because I only half listen/comprehend what goes on around me AND try my hardest to tune 80% percent of the people around me out. It would be nice if my days didn't start this way, but they just do. I have very little private personal space.

I still need to vent and I choose to do it here, because I figure if somebody doesn't want to read what I write all they have to do is not read my posts.

Even though people write here because there are similarities that some people have in common regarding their stuff or issues every person still has their own individual lives that are separate from each other.

[sKePTiKal]

I'm sorry. I guess it did sound like I was trying to shut down the conversation.
I was just talking about my feeling of futility about ever understanding.

You please, go on...

[SilverLining]

My mother suggested to me that I should become a nun. Just an out of the blue off the wall suggestion.

I've wondered if this stuff is a covert way of managing interaction.  It's what passes for reciprocity in the weird mental world of the N.  She makes the suggestion, which sets you reeling in its strangeness and insensitivity.  Then you quit trying to interact, so she can get the topic back on herself.  Both of my parents do this kind of thing.      

[Hopalong]

Hi PR,
I think the problem might've been the extended "We" statements...which is kind of like being the voice for the entire board. "I" statements stay within the boundaries of one's self and sound less teacherinary.

SL--
That makes sense to me. The interaction management reminds me of a basketball game and the ball is some fast-moving thing to do with self-soothing in reaction to a suppressed inner trigger, and within the N those triggers are way too fast and unpredictable to make any sense to an observer. Safer in the bleachers.

Boat--
Oy. Rooster. Aarrgghh.

xo
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

I think the problem might've been the extended "We" statements...which is kind of like being the voice for the entire board.

Thanks, Hops. It's a nasty habit that I still need coaching on... it's one those communication problems that needs more work and sure does point to my FOO-past of enmeshment, engulfment, control/domination... doesn't it? That's how I learned to "talk" to other people. It's what was modelled for me, over & over. It feels like a form of tourette's... when I'm getting to an emotional peak about something... it just takes over. Like how sometimes, I'll just start saying something in French... completely out of context.

The words and how Salsa said she heard them, were so FAR from what my intention was, but there was no way she could know that. I truly appreciate her pointing out how it felt to her and drawing her boundary. That helps me. This is one of those things - a holdover, hangover - that has gotten in the way, in my path to recovery. It's my silly (and self-sabotaging) pattern of interaction learned in that messy, dysfunctional family. My short-hand for it (fair or not) is that I lapse into "Pennsylvania Dutch"...

I can only apologize again, and hope y'all know I'm sincere and I mean it.

[Hopalong]

I gotcha PR, wasn't offended.

hugs

Hops

[SilverLining]

That makes sense to me. The interaction management reminds me of a basketball game and the ball is some fast-moving thing to do with self-soothing in reaction to a suppressed inner trigger, and within the N those triggers are way too fast and unpredictable to make any sense to an observer. Safer in the bleachers.

I like your description of the process Hops.  In my 50's now, I finally feel I can step back from the game and see the strange  interaction process that goes on with these N's.  Possibly the only predictable element is the steering the focus of every interaction back on themselves.  And they have all sorts of tricks to make it happen.         

[gratitude28]

PR and all...
I misinterpret words or misuse them still too. We sometimes read our fears or expectations into what people say. I know I do. My poor husband went through years and years of my misinterpreting so much of what he meant becuase I thought I knew what he was saying... but from the perspective of what I knew my parents to be saying in between the lines... does that make sense???
We are all good people! We are all trying!!

[sKePTiKal]

I know just what you mean, Beth.

For years, my hubs would say something that he meant lovingly, constructively - even creatively - and all I "heard" was criticism. I'm OK. I think, because I had to blurt about my D... I really did slip into the royal "we"; it's one of my old tics, from mothering two such hard-headed, different kinds of girls. Being their mom was kinda like driving a team of horses - and both were going in different directions, constantly. I don't like that particular tic, that attribute of myself (it's something I picked up from Mom; I even sound like her - brrrr!) and rather than feeling hurt or angry or whatever... I'm actually thankful and truly do appreciate it when someone calls me on it. It's like when a good friend points out something you do, that you're completely unaware of (and because I was emotionally in a tizzy about A, then... my lens of awareness was all fogged up)... and you do hear it, accept it. realize they just did you a favor!... try to make that change... and go on. No harm done; no hard feelings.

Now, if I could just lead A to that space!! Oh well. Purpose in life, and all that.