Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?

[sKePTiKal]

Hi Kay - I find Vaknin to be a really difficult way to think about the dynamics in an Nish family. But he's technically correct. Problem is, I think, that he speaks from the perspective/voice of the N in the situation. Each other person in that dynamic responds according to their own inherent personality.

The narcissist invades our personality. He makes us react the way he would have liked to, had he dared, or had he known how (a mechanism known as "projective identification").

This is the one I'm personally most familiar with. What I called, a few years ago - the sock puppet syndrome. IF this is what has happened to your sister, I do feel for her. It can sometimes feel like being "possessed" by an evil spirit... or like one is truly a split personality.... truly another form of PD. But this one is curable -- albeit the work is pretty intense. But, I didn't manifest N-characteristics at all -- in fact, it was as if there was my rational mind, then something else which I called a "ball of strong, intense resistance"... and I really had no "ego" -- in the classic freudian sense. I was a chameleon; I could change my colors - all of me - to "fit in" just about anywhere. The behavior was based on that innate primal need to be "seen" and "recognized" - mirroring and marking - Hi!!! It's me - Amber!!! (and no I'm not just like you, mom...). Ironically, it was my ability to adjust myself to new groups, values, philosophies... the same thing Nmom used to plant her poison arrow... that was my escape route. But I was like a blind-folded person... trying to find "me" in all those places. I needed help to stop looking everywhere but inside my self. That was the thing that was never, ever allowed -- and the greatest taboo, sin, transgression against "mom".

What my mom transferred to both my brother and I was a pathological passivity. It still manifests in me -- in my lack of will to commit to goals that I want to pursue (not just goals that I think I "should" pursue, for rational reasons). It still grinds its foot on the back of my neck, growling that I don't deserve anything... I'm not worth being taken care of... taking care of myself... in my ability to gather myself in the present moment and prevent myself from being steamrolled by any other person in the general vicinity... that passivity's secret message is "nothingness" and massive toxic shame... and it drives me sometimes, to babble incessantly looking for someone who can reflect me back to me -- because I can't always do that for myself.

I'm not entirely clear on what my brother's struggles are. Outwardly -- he is overwhelmingly passive-aggressive. When I give him a chance to explain himself - what comes out is so N; that I grew up trying to teach him, tutor him in his schoolwork thinking he was a little "slow". It wasn't learning ability... it was that he was so locked into what he saw, believed, the way his mind works -- life and people and everything with himself at the very center -- and he NEVER went out the gate that exists in that "boundary" of experience.

Real life example: for 4 years, we've been working on my Dad's estate, taking over the business, working our way through adjusting to new income levels, etc. At least I have - my brother insists on working at his job, despite the fact that he has monthly income from the business equal to his annual salary. He "needs" this job to avoid the N-mess at home... and despite the grueling demands of the job (and emotional demands at home) and the resulting heart attack... he's not giving up the job. It's his "safe place" -- I understand that. I also understand it's a trap.

The estate tax return was audited. We expected it to be audited. That process took 2 years or more. Last week, we finally resolved the last remaining issue and controversy -- more in our favor than I believed was possible. I was overjoyed. It was a great outcome. My brother was beside himself with anger and looking to blame the trustee and CPA; to file a negligence suit even... why? Because he couldn't understand that the calculation used to value of the business (which was done 4 times, independently each time) is standard operating procedure and that the IRS bean counters - in their search for any possible error, oversight, or let's face it - more tax liability... found 1 court case that in 1 instance, denied the calculation used to value the company. He couldn't understand that this is the "luck of the draw"; his expectation is that our "people" should've been omniscient and omnipotent and prevented this from happening in the first place. He doesn't accept that we were just unlucky in that we drew this level of scrutiny. That idea can't exist in his understanding.

It was this one idea that interfered with his ability to see the positive outcome. It over-ruled that ability. The folks we rely on put this down to his inexperience and unfamiliarity with these kinds of business matters. I tried that explanation on for size. I patiently, repeatedly, attempted to educate him... explaining pros and cons... how things work... playing tutor again. NOPE. It didn't get through. At the end of all that effort -- there is only his idea of how it works, what should happen, how it should happen... and everything else is suspect, wrong, and a threat. He very conveniently forgets his own agreements, decisions, etc -- in favor of that original mindset that belongs only to him.

He insists on seeing the world through his N-colored glasses -- even when I can get him to agree to move forward on certain decisions -- he remains in denial. Just like Nmom. They both seem to be stuck on the child side of the child-parent interaction -- and they scapegoat those who step up to the parent position. It's a no-win game, you know?

Back to family dynamics: in some ways I can see how this is his form of resistance - his defense mechanism against the projective identification schema. I know that just beneath all this difficult personality he is an emotional mess. Because he's able to deny it so well - and distract himself with workaholic busy, busy - it's just been piling up... and up... and up. I've tried to get him to shift out of this. But here's the thing: I'm pretty sure my mom is going to outlive him... and she'll blame him for dying on her. I have a lot of pity for the 54-yr-old kid... but he won't let me or anyone else help him. And I can't let myself be connected, even through morbid, pseudo-scientific fascination... because it hurts me, it "hooks" me into the games, and gives me nightmares. And no, my mom will never come live with me. That would be suicide for me.

I'm sorry: I'm doing what Hops calls "voice-hogging" and hijacking your thread by way of an "example". I didn't really know this was bugging me, under the surface. I don't let myself think about it that much anymore. There's just so much more stuff to think about, do and be involved in -- that's way more fun and interesting. Stuff like LIFE. The more I give myself permission to explore that -- at a real level, not just seeking that "being seen" and "belonging" -- the healthier I get. True: this other dark side doesn't completely go away... especially because of the business and the fact that I literally can't go NC, legally... but I no longer have to let it dominate my life either.

It's lot like cleaning toilets, though. LOL!!!!

[BonesMS]

((((Bones))))

It really hurt to know that the ONLY time the NFOO "condescends" to speak to me is ONLY WHEN THEY WANT SOMETHING or to USE me as an OBJECT!  Now that they know that I'm not afraid to say "NO" to their demands, I don't expect to hear from NFOO anymore.

This is so painful and infuriating.  You did an amazing job being frank, and enforcing your boundaries.  You're right. We have no obligation to explain the personal reasons behind these boundaries to people who will not hear our explanations, respect our feelings and even consider for a second that they might not be anything other than 100% entitled and right.

I guess I'd forgotten the way Ns turn everyone else around them into N-bots--that FOOs literally adopts an N's heinous behaviors and attitudes.  Ns infect people.  And sis is infected.

This stuff has been a wake up call like a cold bucket of water in the face.  Sis keeps pushing via email.  Telling me she's leaving for LA in 30 days and can I set up this meeting for her before she goes?  And I just keep defending the boundary, saying sorry, I'm happy to forward this woman the work once you have a completed body of work.  But don't feel comfortable asking her for a meeting (based on nothing, just some vague idea you've barely scribbled down).  It seriously feels like she just wants me to ring this woman (who I barely know) up and ask her to take my sister on as a client (just because my sis is inherently wonderful).  AGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH. 

You are very right about this family, here.  I'm seriously so grateful to be able to speak honestly about this to you all... And feel there are people in the world who hear me and relate.

Kay x

Thanks, ((((((((((((((((((Kay))))))))))))))))))))

N's are AGGRAVATING!!!!!!!

Bones

[KayZee]

((((Finding Peace))))

I'm so sorry I'm a few days late on my reply.  D.H. and I have been swamped with work and visitors.  And I've just felt kind of sapped of everything. 

I can really relate to what you wrote about the toll N-families take on you physically, spiritually and emotionally.  I feel just wrecked.  I'm raising two toddlers, in my third trimester of pregnancy and up against a deadline for this work project that forces me to draw on a lot of personal/childhood/NM-related stuff anyway.  For one of the fist times ever, I feel like I just can't.  Literally, I can't handle fresh FOO dysfunction on top of everything else.  It will break me.  And, for the sake of my husband and kids, I can't be a broken woman right now.

I've spent the past week thinking about it, expecting to be swallowed by the horrible guilt I always feel when I think about estranging myself from the rest of the family.  Only I really haven't felt it.  I still really don't want to see or speak to NM or FOO for a while.  I feel like they're not entitled to me or the family D.H. and I are building.  Just because NM pushed me into the world, doesn't mean she has the right to manipulate, use and terrorize me for as long as I live (or goad the rest of the family to do it for her).  It's toxic and dangerous.  It will always be toxic and dangerous.  And I have enough work to do--healing past wounds--without NM and the like opening fresh ones. 

They have never been a family in any real sense of the word.  It's always just been an act, a shared psychosis, a charade.  And maybe I've been afraid of giving up the charade.  There's that old voice in my head--the one NM put there--that says what will people think?  What will people think when they find out I
divorced myself from my family?  To most everyone, I still try to hide the dysfunction, downplay the damage.  Still protecting FOO and NM instead of myself, my D.H. and my kids.

My family used me until I felt so dried up there was nothing left for me. Not anymore - I've changed my focus from them to my current family (H and kids).

What you wrote is really inspiring to me.  As is your strength, bravery and honesty.

How did you do it?  Step away, I mean?  What did you say to them?  Did they fight you on it? 

I've been scared to tell anyone about this...I fear it sounds really paranoid...But sometimes, I get really fearful that NM is going to find some way to hurt me or my family if I tell her to F off.  I suppose I would just have to deal with and document it.  I have visions of her kidnapping my kids (the way she used to threaten to do to my niece during my sister's custody battles), or breaking into our house, or committing identity fraud with my SS# and destroying our credit (she used to steal money from my bank account).  Sometimes I toss and turn at night, feeling unsafe because I haven't returned one of her texts or because I've told her she can't come visit.  I worry that she doesn't have any of the brain functioning that stops people from thinking violet, destructive things or carrying them out.  And she's decided in recent years that I'm Enemy No. 1.

[KayZee]

((((((P.R.))))))

You're not hijacking at all!  I feel so relieved and connected when other people share similar stories and concerns.  I find it really difficult to find a safe space to talk about these things.  The world at large is so full of mothers-are-the-family-glue and blood-is-thicker-than-water cliches.  I realized a few years ago that none of my friends had any basis of comparison where their own FOOs were concerned. 

I'm astonished by your strength and compassion in the face of N insanity.  For a long time, work was my only refuge from FOO nastiness...I can't imagine how challenging it must be to have your business tied up with them.

What a wonderful relief to have your audit dealt with and finished!  Stressful doesn't even begin to describe.  The fact that your brother has managed to heap even more stress and negative emotion on top of it... that makes my fists curl just thinking about it. 

He couldn't understand that this is the "luck of the draw"; his expectation is that our "people" should've been omniscient and omnipotent and prevented this from happening in the first place. He doesn't accept that we were just unlucky in that we drew this level of scrutiny. That idea can't exist in his understanding

Damn N-FOOs.  Everything is always a personal affront to them.  Probably because they can never be wrong.  And rather than expend the 30 seconds of personal energy and shame it takes to admit that they were wrong (or even just admit to being in the wrong place at the wrong time...luck of the draw), they'd rather devote 30 days to huffing and puffing, and pounding their chests, blaming anyone or thing they can.

Loosely reminds me of my parent's german shepherd....They were just supposed to be watching it for my brother in law while he was deployed, but when he returned from Iraq they refused to give the dog back (claimed it was theirs since they put so much $$ into vet bills).  Well this dog is HUGE and not trained.  At all.  Doggie has wracked up complaints all around town.  For biting joggers, for stealing and chewing other people's things out of their open garages, for charging onto other people's lawns and barking at their fenced-in-dogs for an hour at a time.  My FOO refuses to train the dog, leash him or accept that they've played any part in the drama.  Basically, they've managed to convince themselves that all of their neighbors and the town itself are just over-reactive a-holes.  They've actually gone on to provoke and shout at people in their neighborhoods.  They'd rather be bullies than be wrong.  (How's this for crazy?  My parents' next door neighbor thinks they poisoned his dog, who died, as a result of the dispute.  And I don't entirely put it past them.).

He insists on seeing the world through his N-colored glasses -- even when I can get him to agree to move forward on certain decisions -- he remains in denial. Just like Nmom. They both seem to be stuck on the child side of the child-parent interaction -- and they scapegoat those who step up to the parent position.

  Wow, this is an amazing insight.  It's so unfair for you to have to take on the parent role, and then to have to feel punished for it. 

I relate hugely, and have never before had the words to articulate it.  It's always bothered me the way everyone in my FOO acts like a six-year-old, but attacks me for trying to be an adult.  Other times, I've felt like they're all actors reading from the same script (god help you if you step on NM's lines or want to be spontaneous or authentic).  And then, there are times, when they all seem like sleepwalkers.  A sleepwalker isn't aware of you, and mid-dream, they don't want you to pull them out of harm's way; in fact, if you try to wake them, they're apt to turn violent. 

In the world outside FOO, I'm pathologically passive too.  But, the funny thing is, my dad and sister are SOOO passive with NM that I look defiant by comparison.  I'm so tired of trying to wake or protect my family, or alert them to my existence.  It just gets me scapegoated in exactly the way you described.  But--and this is new--I'm not will to play along with them anymore.  Or compromise my reality to their collective dream.  I really think I've had enough.

Anyway, now I've voice-hogged and highjacked your concerns about your brother!  I really just wanted to say I'm so sorry for everything you're going through with him.  And to thank you for sharing it.  It's a big help to know I'm not alone with this stuff. 

lots of love, Kay

[sKePTiKal]

I've been scared to tell anyone about this...I fear it sounds really paranoid...But sometimes, I get really fearful that NM is going to find some way to hurt me or my family if I tell her to F off.

It's not paranoid. It's fear. A fear based on what you already have suffered -- but, this is a crucial difference -- suffered as a child. It's real as can be, too.
But, you're no longer a child - you're a mother with a good sized family! You can protect yourself with the same instincts, that you protect those kids with.

With those facts in hand, you can probably figure out the rest.

(((((Kay)))))

[Hopalong]

I feel like they're not entitled to me or the family D.H. and I are building.  Just because NM pushed me into the world, doesn't mean she has the right to manipulate, use and terrorize me for as long as I live

YES.

Trust this.

Trust your smart realization.

This is the awakening that frees people. From stupid, toxic, meaningless...yes. It's all correct. Destructive ties are stupid, toxic and meaningless.

YOU are no longer blindly, passively accepting what the culture says.

That is just completely wonderful, imo. And you will not be alone. There are people who really have questioned deeply enough -- various things if not FOOs -- that you WILL find Real Ears, who can hear you. Real Friends, who can support your Real Life.

So much good luck to you, and peace ... you have earned it and you are right to protect it.

love,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Kay, I just wanted to echo what Hops said about trusting how you feel and also quickly to touch on what you describe as your paranioa about your mum trying to damage you if you pull away.  As Phoenix quite rightly points out this is fear, not paranioa and my mum did launch multiple assaults when I pulled away.  She caused a lot of problems and did a lot of damage but ......... as hard as it was at the time (and still is sometimes), I learnt a lot about myself as I fought her off.  I became stronger and, ironically, she actually proved that what I was saying about her was true by the things she did.  I came out of it the other side smelling of roses and she looked like something very unpleasant.  Even if your mum does try to sabotage things for you, it's still worth it to be able to be you, unchecked, unfettered and untainted.  I find all that 'feel the fear and do it anyway' stuff a bit cringe worthy but it is very true - it's your life, do what your heart tells you and know that you are strong enough to deal with what comes your way.  And you're not alone xxx

[sKePTiKal]

Even if your mum does try to sabotage things for you, it's still worth it to be able to be you, unchecked, unfettered and untainted.  I find all that 'feel the fear and do it anyway' stuff a bit cringe worthy but it is very true - it's your life, do what your heart tells you and know that you are strong enough to deal with what comes your way.

What Tupps said. True, true, true.

I'll just add, that there's no 100% guarantee that your fear about sabotage, mischief, or just plain evil unpleasantness will come true. Sometimes it does. Sometimes there's something closer to home, that distracts them... and you can simply walk on... until they realize you've been gone, for a while. And by that time - you've found that there is absolutely no way you'd ever betray your self again... for the sake of "the appearance of a relationship".

Because you KNOW that life isn't like that -- except within the sphere of an N... life outside that circle of hell --- is so wonderful you'll simply not choose ever to go back... even if you don't go completely NC. It's not a matter so much of physical proximity and actual contact that's the danger... NC, in that respect, is realizing that you are doing the driving from now on - not Nmom - not Sis... and they can yell "turn here" as much as they want -- you don't have to.

Ever again.

[finding peace]

Hey KayZee,

Thanks for responding – no worries on any delay – I am the same way – so much in 3-d, it is hard to keep up with board life!

While I totally agree with hops, I would have one addition:

Instead of saying culture – I would put a spin on it as CULT/your. (Sounds the same; but totally different context, eh?  At least in my family – it was a cult and it was my cult – though not by choice.)

And, in my experience, it is extremely difficult to walk away from the familial cult!

I hope this doesn’t offend – but, I stopped thinking of my parents as an M and F; to me they became the bio-donors or, my preference, the sperm donor and incubator – beyond that they were nothing but toxic.

I read your post, and strongly, so strongly, feel that I could respond line by line to what you wrote – it is so similar to what I went through….

While I want to respond to each line, I feel that more importantly, it is about the bottom line… may be that I am wrong – and apologize in advance..

Bottom line – to me…

You have an H, you have 2 toddlers, you are in your 3rd trimester of pregnancy, and you are working on a project that brings up bad memories (possibly PTSD?) all the while dealing with current (massive) dysfunction.

I can remember being there – there was so much negative energy, angst, guilt, worry (of course because of the way I was raised … I too was so worried about what others would think), along with the pain, rage….

All of that and I had 2 young children.  At the time I didn’t realize, but I made an unconscious decision, that all of that negative energy that was impacting me impacted my real family – when I could take all that energy, and instead of being drawn into the quicksand of my family, I could take that energy, climb out of their quicksand that I was drowning in, and turn that energy toward my H and kids – and imagine them on a beautiful sandy beach having the time of their lives! 

Instead of being drowned by their quicksand; I could build sandcastles, grab my kids by the arms and swing them in the surf.  Cuddle with my H at a sunset.

Long story short – I had a lot of negative energy, I could choose to spend that energy in the toxic waste dump of my FOO, OR I could turn it from negative to positive and put that positive energy towards a beautiful time with my true family.

I chose my family – but it wasn’t easy.

You asked how I did it.

It took awhile.

At first it was e-mail only.  At that time, I asked her for some space.  She couldn’t do it, and yet I kept repeating, I need some space.

She backed off for a couple of weeks, and then started showing up at my house.  I was lucky enough that when she showed up – for the most part (one time she actually walked into my house without my permission, and my girls ousted her) my H was there and very bluntly told her she was not welcome.

She tried to involve my in-laws (my family of choice) – but they were smart enough to be “Switzerland” to not get involved.

Every once in a while she tries to draw me back in, and I DO NOT RESPOND.

That is the key – DO NOT RESPOND.

Now, my incubator is so worried about what others’ will think – she has given up.

Your paranoia – is not paranoia – you know your incubator better than anyone – trust yourself!!!!!!

And she will do anything she can to draw you back into the quicksand.

Right here and now (and you may want a relationship later – but right now it is toxic).  You need to take steps to protect you and yours.

I so wish I could wrap you in bubble wrap, where everything your family puts you through in the past or future …bounces off – that is how it should be – although it is not that easy is it?

I was pregnant 2x and with both pregnancies I had pre-eclampsia, I faced dying to bring my children into the word.

And you know what?  At 13 and 9, while I almost died, they are the best little people that ever happened to me.

I learned, through them, that I would, never, ever, treat my child as I was treated – it was a huge wake up call.  What my life should have been.

Now, towards paranoid tendencies  – FULL STOP.

Trust yourself.

I wish Ta***(respecting her privacy) still posted here … her mother did exactly what you are afraid your incubator could possibly do.  Her mother did.

If I were in your shoes – I would take that worry (energy) and find a way to make myself feel safe.

Invest in a state of the art security system so that she has no chance of kidnapping – in this day and age, it is smart to do this anyway.  There are a lot of sickos out there – least of all your parents – state of the art security system will protect you from the sickos and your bio-donors.

I have a bank alert on my credit scores (it doesn’t cost a lot with most banks – and mine offers it for free); enlist this, and you will know as soon as she tries to use your SSI to create a card for her.  The bank will alert you via e-mail and you can immediate dispute.

Given your fear (which you may feel is paranoia but I feel is grounded in reality)- I would request a restraining order – almost had to do this with my mom – but, when I threatened her with this she backed off (she didn’t want a paper trail that made her look like the bad guy … :rolling eyes:, but counted on it.)

In order to walk away from my mother, I had to understand her triggers, and use those against her.  Sounds awful, but ultimately it worked.  She has finally left me alone.

Love to you KZ – you deserve it.  ((((((KayZee)))))))

Peace

[JustKathy]

Hi Kay,

I haven't had a chance to read the entire thread, but I'll echo what many others have said in "I relate." I've also had to make hard decisions regarding my own sister and accepting the limitations of what kind of relationship I can have with her. In my family, I'm the scapegoat, my brother the GC, with my sister being stuck in the middle without a "role." She's lost, and has allowed herself to be completely manipulated my NM. I sense that she's a very unhappy person, and doesn't want to be NM's puppet, but she seems lost without NM to tell her how to run her life, so she continues to go along with it. There have been times when the life came back into her eyes, and she would actually stand up for herself, but just when I thought there was hope, she would spin right around and run to NM's defense again.

Like you, my sister would also ignore emails and phone calls from me unless she needed something (or NM needed something and was using her as her mouthpiece). One time when I tried to contact her to no avail, she actually sent an email telling me, "Mom says I'm not allowed to speak to you." (This coming from a woman in her 40s). Still, I always held onto hope that she would one day wake up and that we could have a normal relationship. I was wrong. A few years ago she actually replied to one of my emails, so I took the opportunity to tell her how I felt about everything. BIG mistake. I opened up to her and shared my true feelings, and she ran straight to NM with it and they sat around gossiping about it. She replied to me, but I quickly realized that her emails were being dictated by NM. It was obvious by the use of NM's signature vocabulary words and phrases that S was being told what to say. At that point I realized that she was a lost cause, and that there would never be any relationship beyond yearly Christmas cards.

I agree with the others that you absolutely did the right thing in this case. Don't put your own career at risk to help someone who is only taking advantage. I used to work in the entertainment industry, including several years working for talent agencies, and I've been burned more than once by doing a favor for a friend, passing along a head shot, only to have that person wash their hands of me when they didn't get signed and become an overnight sensation. I still have people who ask me to call in favors to people I know in the business, and I won't do it. It's rarely appreciated when it's a friend, but when it's family, and that family member is an N, OMG. No, their brains don't function on the same level as ours. They don't see that kind of offer as the very generous favor that it is. To them, it's expected, not just once, but whenever they ask for it. They are entitled to it, you owe it to them, period. And no matter how hard you to try to explain your side of it, or how you put your career and reputation at risk for them, they won't hear it because they they don't care. As scapegoat children we are expected to give and give and give and receive nothing in return, not even the words "thank you." They don't comprehend on any level that they're acting out of order. We're here to serve them. Period.

[debkor]

Hi Kay

Don't worry about what or how to.....just do.  Take yourself out of the equation.  Narcissist will never stop (Bad mouthing) you to people and the people to you.
That's for sure.  Correction...maybe they will stop because you have made choice to cut them out of your life.

So let's say you did not make that choice.  Here is most likely what is going to happen.  Remember you are emotionally out of the equation.  They are in full bashing mode either about you or another.  The only way you respond is to hang up.  To remove yourself.  To remove them.  To ignore.

Be consistant and they will be the One that will do..low contact.....no contact.   Your not in the N equation.  Your boring to them.

That is how it turned out with my friend.

Don't try to talk to them about their behavior.  Your anything ..feelings...boundaries because they don't think normal. They are mentally ill.

You most certainly can cut them out of your life.  You most certainly can cut yourself out of the way they live and want to interact with you by the above..ignore' hang up' kick out' remove yourself...and really really ..emotionally remove yourself. 


There is no right or wrong decision.  Just different ones.  Whatever feels right for you and yours.

A narcissist one time said they have no friends.  They want it that way. They have acquaintance's.  That is about the only truth I have ever heard.  If your not a friend' nor an acquaintance then they assume they own you (family).

Deb































Sometimes we can spend at the most two days of an enjoyable time.  It's not often.