Author Topic: Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?  (Read 4447 times)

KayZee

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Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?
« on: August 24, 2012, 03:53:11 PM »
My brain is still spinning. . .

A little bit of back story: My sister (my only sibling) and I haven't really had a relationship for four years.  We see each other at some holidays and family gatherings, but that's it.  We don't really speak on the phone, visit each other, etc.  Looking back, my NM sort of dumped me as a source of N-supply back when I started dating my husband, going to therapy, setting more boundaries, living my own life, sticking up for the people my NM abused, and she made a big effort to woo my younger sister (who NM had spent the preceding couple of years treating horribly).  Since then our roles as daughters have reversed.  I've returned to my rightful childhood place as the scapegoat, and sis is back to being the golden child.  I had a confrontation with my mother four years ago, my sister leaped to NM's defense and the two have been like bobbsey twins ever since.  They talk on the phone five times a day.  Whisper about me in front of me when I see them.  NM has totally triangulated my relationship with my sister, but makes phoney speeches about how she's 'so sad' that sis and I aren't close and pleads with me to let her (NM) be the one who mediates and brings us back together.

Anyway, both NM and sis are at their worst after spending a number of days visiting with each other.  So I should have been on my guard, knowing sis went to stay with NM last week....But I wasn't.  I saw I missed a call from my sister last night.  And I stupidly/naively thought, Wow.  She's calling me.  She actually wants to talk things out and have a relationship with me.  (I've tried to approach her before in person, email, phone.  And talk about outstanding conflicts.  Past arguments.  Patching things up.  But every time she either shuts me down, says she doesn't have any interest, looks at me blankly or goes complaining to NM who injects herself firmly back in the middle.) 

So I call my sister back, and we start a little small talk about her job, my pregnancy, etc.  And I'm still thinking Wow!  Maybe I can have some family after all!  Maybe I can have one relationship with a blood relative that isn't polluted by NM!  Maybe sis really does care, miss me, wonder what's going on in my life.

And then it happens...Like a shoe dropping.  Or a door closing.  Sis tells me she's calling because she wants to know if I still know this film agent in LA, and if I can set up a meeting for her.  (Stupid Kay! Last time my sister called a year ago, it was the same thing...She was manic.  Talking about some children's picture book series she'd been working on and wondering if my writing agent would represent her.) 

This bothers me so deeply and makes me feel so sad for so many reasons:

1) I felt like I was being used and objectified in the same way that my parents (especially NM) have always made me feel that way.  I felt like sis wasn't seeing me as a person.  As a sister.  As the sister she's barely said a word to in four years.  This kind of lack of acknowledging that we aren't close and only calling me when I'm a means to some end that she wants.  It seemed totally N.  And yet, I don't think my sister is NPD.  If anything, she's always seemed more BPD, but when she hangs out with NM, she mirrors NM attitudes and callousness.

2) I already set up a meeting for sister with this woman six years ago!  And the woman was nice enough to say, yes, sure, I'll read any script that sis writes and finishes if she wants to send it to me.  But my sister hasn't ever done the work.  And she still doesn't have a finished product (script) to show her.  She basically just stayed up late one night, jotting down this idea for some Twilight-esque thing and woke up the next day convinced five hours of work produced the best thing Hollywood has ever seen.  Sis is basically asking for a B.S. meeting (about nothing) with no commensurate achievement, a.k.a. an actual, completed piece of writing.  That attitude enrages me with its N-ness!  And it puts me in really mortifying position.  I see no conceivable way that I could ask this woman to meet with my sister to discuss nothing but grandiose plans and fantasies about "amazing ideas" sis has never applied herself to or seen to fruition.

So I was kind of stammering...deeply pissed off and sad.  Feeling used.  Feeling loneliness and family-less.  And I said, sure fine.  I'll email this agent for you.  But I don't feel comfortable asking her for a meeting.  I will forward her the finished piece of work when you have it and ask if she'll give it a look.  But until you have a product to show her, I can't really help you.  And then, I found an exit and hung up.

So I set a boundary, but it still felt inauthentic.  Because I wanted to tell my sister how hurt and used it made me feel that she ignores me, gossips about me with NM, doesn't appear to want any relationship with me at all until she wants something.  But I didn't, because I felt certain that she would skirt the conversation and just go trotting back to NM, telling her how difficult I am and how selfish for not sharing my contacts.  Co-N Dad did the same thing to me a few years ago, bullied and pressured and harassed until I agreed to give his novel to a colleague of mine; the whole thing was really uncomfortable and made me feel equally depressed and exploited.

What would you all have done?  Do you try to be emotionally authentic when setting boundaries with N-like family members?  Or do you try to keep your feelings to yourself, so the wolf pack won't shred them to ribbons? 

God, just when I'm beginning to feel happy/grounded/centered, FOO can knock me back down in an instant.  I'm beginning to feel like I'm just done.  Finished.  And I want nothing to do with them.  There's no humanity there.  They just don't see people as people. 

Twoapenny

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Re: Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2012, 04:46:32 PM »
Hi Kay,

I did try to be real and describe my feelings to my family in the early days, when I wanted to have a relationship with them and wanted them to change the way they treated me in order to do that.  They just can't understand or comprehend feelings, so it was a fruitless exercise and one that just gave them more ammunition to throw at me.  It's very hard to cope with.  I read something in a book - I can't remember which one now but if it comes to me I'll post the title - where the author compares it to expecting a pre school child to understand a book written for an adult.  Their brains just aren't ready for it and can't process the information, so you can read them the book a thousand times and it still won't make sense.  The N parent (or sibling/whoever) is in a similar situation - they just can't understand how you feel, no matter how hard you try to explain it.  Think of it as a kind of injury to the brain that stops that understanding being there.

It is very hard to cope with.  I think you did the right thing in the way you dealt with your sister today.  I found writing letters that I didn't send really helpful for getting out how I felt about the whole thing.  It took a long time but eventually I accepted them the way they are and I don't look to them for things they can't give me (love, affection, understanding, acceptance).  I had to learn to give myself those things and to stop trying to get them from other people.  I found that very hard and still struggle with it sometimes, but it's coming.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((Kay))))))))))))))))))))))))))

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Re: Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2012, 09:20:35 PM »



KayZee,

I relate.  I have an estranged/(divorced me) sister.  It has worked better for me once I cut out all efforts to build a bond between us.  Love your sister if you wish, but with plenty of distance between you.  It won't be easy getting used to her not being a controlling factor in your life, your thoughts, triggers that may pop up, but by detaching gradually, and with determination, it can happen. 

Brightest blessings,

tt


 

sKePTiKal

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Re: Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2012, 07:15:33 AM »
Kay honey...

here's the thing about sharing your feelings with Ns.... they use them to hurt you... that's how they boost their own egos.

It may feel as if this is the "last straw" in their campaign of pretending you don't exist or matter... but in truth, if you can fully appreciate how many times they've done this to you -- and how nothing you can do will change that; make them care or feel badly about how they've treated you -- you will have taken the very first step toward being free of them. Yes, it's completely, totally 180 degrees opposite of how you would conduct yourself with normal people... fact is, they' ain't normal. And you can't teach them how to be, can't make them realize or "wake up"... they simply do not have the ability to understand that you have feelings -- and that their actions provoke feelings in you, that are miserable to carry around. It's as if that whole part of their brain has been removed.

As CONs - children of Ns - we're made to feel so responsible for THEIR feelings - scapegoating, abused for it in fact... that we expect (naturally) that things work the other way around too. They don't. Ns get away with what they do to others precisely because they don't have that part of the brain that lets them accept that others have feelings.

So, this changes our perspective on the "problem". Because even if you can get your brain around the above -- we still have the feelings, the instantaneous reactions, the deep down embedded yearning to stay "hooked" into this sham-form of a "relationship" with these people. It's the only form of relationship we're allowed. (Sorry - I'm back on that Professorial "we" style of talking again...) I had to accept the new perspective on the problem, and realize that it was my job to figure out what to do with my feelings -- since they didn't even recognize their own responsibility in how I felt about their treatment of me, there was no possible way for me to expect or ask that they help me feel better, you know?

The whole situation is a house of mirrors, so if you need to read the above a couple times. As a kid, I used to have nightmares about fun houses and mirrors that distorted everything -- particularly and especially -- how I saw myself.

You already have the "toolbox" to create a solution: you are already responsible for your own feelings, you can express them, understand what boundaries are, and are on the path to loving yourself in a healthy way. So, do yourself a favor -- grieve for "what doesn't exist": this is your own love, empathy and caring that you share with other "normal" people. Be kind to yourself and honor this capacity you have -- that love that hurts -- because the people who should be horrified and shocked that they've hurt you AREN'T. It is a true sadness that humans like this exist. And then resolve to try to protect yourself from them, in the future.

This means - for me - not having emotional expectations of them - expectations of being treated well. This means understanding that their behavior is part of their own PD; it has absolutely nothing to do with me -- therefore it's not logical (even in an emotional logic system) for me to feel shame about them, or to protect others from them, or to protect them from the normal expectations of normal people. I still go through the motions of the sham-relationship (my inner child Twiggy isn't so happy about that, btw... she wants me to be way more aggressive) with my mom and my brother. The only way I CAN continue on like this, is because I've been practicing that solution. It works for me -- you may have to make some adjustments in it for yourself. It's not perfect either -- I find I have to "check" with someone else -- my hubs or any other normal person -- from time to time, to ask if my confusion over something said -- or their emotional reaction -- registers as abnormal with other people, as it does me. And sometimes I slip up and fall back into my old hurt and outrage... that's when I have to give myself a hug, tell myself it's OK -- it's understandable that they'd get under my skin and I'd lose "control" over myself... and just let it go.

I can't rely on them - at all - to care about how I feel. My hubs is another story - my friends - my kids... they all care how I feel... but ultimately I'm still the one who's responsible for managing my feelings; knowing when to comfort myself and when to let things go.

((((((((((((Kay)))))))))))))

Ns are so frustrating and infuriating and confusing and horrifying and demanding and unfeeling - like Terminator robots - it's easy to forget to take care of oneself.
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BonesMS

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Re: Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2012, 07:35:13 AM »
My brain is still spinning. . .

A little bit of back story: My sister (my only sibling) and I haven't really had a relationship for four years.  We see each other at some holidays and family gatherings, but that's it.  We don't really speak on the phone, visit each other, etc.  Looking back, my NM sort of dumped me as a source of N-supply back when I started dating my husband, going to therapy, setting more boundaries, living my own life, sticking up for the people my NM abused, and she made a big effort to woo my younger sister (who NM had spent the preceding couple of years treating horribly).  Since then our roles as daughters have reversed.  I've returned to my rightful childhood place as the scapegoat, and sis is back to being the golden child.  I had a confrontation with my mother four years ago, my sister leaped to NM's defense and the two have been like bobbsey twins ever since.  They talk on the phone five times a day.  Whisper about me in front of me when I see them.  NM has totally triangulated my relationship with my sister, but makes phoney speeches about how she's 'so sad' that sis and I aren't close and pleads with me to let her (NM) be the one who mediates and brings us back together.

Anyway, both NM and sis are at their worst after spending a number of days visiting with each other.  So I should have been on my guard, knowing sis went to stay with NM last week....But I wasn't.  I saw I missed a call from my sister last night.  And I stupidly/naively thought, Wow.  She's calling me.  She actually wants to talk things out and have a relationship with me.  (I've tried to approach her before in person, email, phone.  And talk about outstanding conflicts.  Past arguments.  Patching things up.  But every time she either shuts me down, says she doesn't have any interest, looks at me blankly or goes complaining to NM who injects herself firmly back in the middle.) 

So I call my sister back, and we start a little small talk about her job, my pregnancy, etc.  And I'm still thinking Wow!  Maybe I can have some family after all!  Maybe I can have one relationship with a blood relative that isn't polluted by NM!  Maybe sis really does care, miss me, wonder what's going on in my life.

And then it happens...Like a shoe dropping.  Or a door closing.  Sis tells me she's calling because she wants to know if I still know this film agent in LA, and if I can set up a meeting for her.  (Stupid Kay! Last time my sister called a year ago, it was the same thing...She was manic.  Talking about some children's picture book series she'd been working on and wondering if my writing agent would represent her.) 

This bothers me so deeply and makes me feel so sad for so many reasons:

1) I felt like I was being used and objectified in the same way that my parents (especially NM) have always made me feel that way.  I felt like sis wasn't seeing me as a person.  As a sister.  As the sister she's barely said a word to in four years.  This kind of lack of acknowledging that we aren't close and only calling me when I'm a means to some end that she wants.  It seemed totally N.  And yet, I don't think my sister is NPD.  If anything, she's always seemed more BPD, but when she hangs out with NM, she mirrors NM attitudes and callousness.

2) I already set up a meeting for sister with this woman six years ago!  And the woman was nice enough to say, yes, sure, I'll read any script that sis writes and finishes if she wants to send it to me.  But my sister hasn't ever done the work.  And she still doesn't have a finished product (script) to show her.  She basically just stayed up late one night, jotting down this idea for some Twilight-esque thing and woke up the next day convinced five hours of work produced the best thing Hollywood has ever seen.  Sis is basically asking for a B.S. meeting (about nothing) with no commensurate achievement, a.k.a. an actual, completed piece of writing.  That attitude enrages me with its N-ness!  And it puts me in really mortifying position.  I see no conceivable way that I could ask this woman to meet with my sister to discuss nothing but grandiose plans and fantasies about "amazing ideas" sis has never applied herself to or seen to fruition.

So I was kind of stammering...deeply pissed off and sad.  Feeling used.  Feeling loneliness and family-less.  And I said, sure fine.  I'll email this agent for you.  But I don't feel comfortable asking her for a meeting.  I will forward her the finished piece of work when you have it and ask if she'll give it a look.  But until you have a product to show her, I can't really help you.  And then, I found an exit and hung up.

So I set a boundary, but it still felt inauthentic.  Because I wanted to tell my sister how hurt and used it made me feel that she ignores me, gossips about me with NM, doesn't appear to want any relationship with me at all until she wants something.  But I didn't, because I felt certain that she would skirt the conversation and just go trotting back to NM, telling her how difficult I am and how selfish for not sharing my contacts.  Co-N Dad did the same thing to me a few years ago, bullied and pressured and harassed until I agreed to give his novel to a colleague of mine; the whole thing was really uncomfortable and made me feel equally depressed and exploited.

What would you all have done?  Do you try to be emotionally authentic when setting boundaries with N-like family members?  Or do you try to keep your feelings to yourself, so the wolf pack won't shred them to ribbons? 

God, just when I'm beginning to feel happy/grounded/centered, FOO can knock me back down in an instant.  I'm beginning to feel like I'm just done.  Finished.  And I want nothing to do with them.  There's no humanity there.  They just don't see people as people. 

(((((((((((((((((((((((((KayZee))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I can relate!!!!

Just went through a similar situation a couple of weeks ago with a member of the NFOO.  It's NOT pleasant and it's definitely NOT fun! 

It hurts when the realization hits that the NFOO don't see you as a person, as a human being with feelings but only as an object to be USED for their own self-gratification.  During the brief phone conversation I had, the NFOO kept trying to pry into what I was thinking and feeling about what the NQueen-Bitch did to my NGCB and me and I stated that I will not discuss it.  If he wanted to know WHY NGCB made the decisions he did, he will HAVE TO ASK HIM as I do not discuss speculations.  NFOO got royally pissed off because I DARED to set a boundary.  I terminated the call a few minutes later.

It really hurt to know that the ONLY time the NFOO "condescends" to speak to me is ONLY WHEN THEY WANT SOMETHING or to USE me as an OBJECT!  Now that they know that I'm not afraid to say "NO" to their demands, I don't expect to hear from NFOO anymore.

I guess the only phamily we have is each other......here.

Bones
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Hopalong

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Re: Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2012, 11:26:12 AM »
I think you handled this situation absolutely perfectly, ((((KZ)))).

You set an appropriate adult boundary with her that essentially meant
that you would not be used as a tool, or professionally embarrassed, and
that placed the responsibility for her "project" back in her own lap where it
belonged. That was awesome.

Then you named the hurt, the pain, the sorrow and rejection you feel,
and brought it here, where hearts do understand how your felt so UNvalued and UNloved
when your sister, after 4 years !! --- only contacted you to "network."

Oh how sad that is.

But with her, in the present, you did it perfectly.

As for the grief ... I think you are managing that with great maturity and truthfulness
too.

I'm sorry, KZ. I wish I had a sister. Like you.

xo
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KayZee

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Re: Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2012, 04:11:40 PM »
Thank you so much, Tup.

Quote
the author compares it to expecting a pre school child to understand a book written for an adult.  Their brains just aren't ready for it and can't process the information, so you can read them the book a thousand times and it still won't make sense.  The N parent (or sibling/whoever) is in a similar situation - they just can't understand how you feel, no matter how hard you try to explain it.  Think of it as a kind of injury to the brain that stops that understanding being there.

This is an amazing and truly helpful analogy.  I want to, like, write it on a stickie note and keep it in a very prominent place as a reminder to myself.  I really appreciate the encouragement.  And I'm so inspired by the way you've come to accept FOOs limitations. 

It's the kind of healing work that's hard because it seems to require being in two frames of mind at once: On the one hand, I feel like I'm trying to work on some intimacy and social anxiety issues; you know, put myself out there more, use my voice, communicate my feelings to people (excluding FOO).  And on the other, I feel like I'm trying to build up emotional barriers between me and FOO; you know, be less forthcoming with NM and co-N family who will only narrow in on my weak points like snipers.  Blah...

Anyway, you all are amazing as always.  I'm so glad to have a community (you) that understands and relates.
Kay x

KayZee

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Re: Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2012, 04:22:14 PM »
(((t.t.)))

It's encouraging to know it gets better.  I'm so sorry you're in a similar situation with your sister.  It's mind-boggling to me that a parent would poison a relationship between sisters.  And it still amazes me the way siblings can grow up in the same environment, yet have completely different parents.

In writing this I realized, I have a lot of healing work to do where my sister and dad are concerned.  For some reason it's harder to give up my expectations of them.  I guess I feel like NM doesn't have a choice (her brain is broken, making her selfish and malicious).  But I feel like my sister and dad have souls, and they could break the cycle of abuse if only they could wake up from the evil spell NM has cast on them, if only they cared a little bit less about sparing themselves from her wrath and just accepted that she'll be unhappy and vengeful no matter what they do.

But you can't make people change.  And my sister had things arguably worse than I did.  I had the "luxury" of being the scapegoat--and I'm not even being sarcastic, that allowed me a small glimmer of will and self--whereas my GC sis had to fully vacate her spirit and body and surrender to MOM. 

You're absolutely right.. . I can have empathy with my sister and love her at a distance.  But I need to work on accepting that my mother is more of a sister to my sister.  And that's the way they both want it.

KayZee

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Re: Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2012, 04:36:10 PM »
Thank you P.R.!

Quote
Because even if you can get your brain around the above -- we still have the feelings, the instantaneous reactions, the deep down embedded yearning to stay "hooked" into this sham-form of a "relationship" with these people. It's the only form of relationship we're allowed.

I think I just needed to hear permission that it's okay to do the sham-relationship thing: to set boundaries, but otherwise keep my emotional self to myself where FOO is concerned.  I do this with NM, but haven't yet learned or accepted that I needed to do it with my sister and father too.

So much of my experience in therapy had to do with the therapist urging me to be authentic/assertive about my feelings and communicate them to others (I don't think the therapist suspected that I was from a narc family and I didn't then either), so sometimes I feel like I'm failing or regressing when I don't share.  But you're right, I don't think my sister would have heard or respected my feelings.  And besides, that doesn't matter.  All that matters is I really feel, and experience, and heal them on my own.  That's my work.  And she wouldn't have been able to help me with that anyway.

I'm feeling a little more clear-headed about it today.  And, yes, it's most certainly not the last time FOO will make me feel objectified and used.  Terminator robots is so spot on!

I think I need to accept the problem isn't just my NM.  Although it may have started with her, my whole family is now behaving like Ns and I need/want to relate to them all in the same self-protective way I relate to Her.  Of course, that brings up feelings of abandonment and family-less-ness.  But I need to work through that on my own.  That's my own healing work.  FOO certainly isn't going to be there to lend an ear or a helping hand.

sKePTiKal

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Re: Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2012, 08:42:26 AM »
That's an interesting observation Kay - that now the rest of the FOO is acting like NM. Guess they feel their status depends on it, huh? Or maybe it's unconscious -- simply what they're used to, their comfort zone -- and they haven't given it a second's thought. In my FOO there was additionally, a clear choice between "value systems"... that were overly linked to "behavior systems". Of course, one was demonized, made the scapegoat... and the other's was always "right" and "perfect".

Over the years, my mom hasn't changed a bit... except maybe it's harder to tell what's her delusions and what's cognitive decline. She'll be 80 in a few months. My brother is the same way... and he is actually the more dangerous of the two to navigate for me. Sometimes, in dysfunctional FOOs, sibs will form an alliance - which we did. Temporarily. I went out of my way to try to help him with the results of our shared trauma -- the way it affected him was different than what I went through. I mentored/mothered him to a pretty stable network of life support outside of the family -- friends, sports, school. He doesn't remember any of that. When he also turned on me - played the scapegoat game - that was kinda the last straw for me.

Now, his wife is in the scapegoat position. Both mom & bro think she's the "crazy" one -- and have even helped disrupt her relationship with her mom. Of course - she's stressed to the limit and actually feels crazy herself, poor thing. We communicate in relative secret. She really needs simple validation of what's going on - the gaslighting, being the outsider in the family, and the constant boundary intrusions and violations that go on. But mom has so much control -- or tries to have -- so much control over bro, SIL, and grandkids -- that bro simply has designed his life so that he doesn't have to live there. NM can be so negative -- that no one wants to be there much at all. Another generation that regards "home" as dangerous and uncomfortable... sigh.

What will be interesting - is what happens when Nmom dies; assuming of course, that bro outlives her: he's in a typical avoidance workaholic ratrace and has already had a heart attack, stents, and refuses to slow down. (Denial is a powerful trait in our FOO... I'm constantly watching myself to make sure I'm not falling into the same pattern -- sometimes I do -- and bless you guys! you put me on the right track again.)

So, I guess you'd say I'm "LC" with all of them. It's easy for SIL to trigger me - after all, that was my life experience for so long. Bro and I must work together in the business -- and it's a constant struggle, with his P-A, denial, now memory issues... and his refusal to participate in a slightly more involved fashion. I no longer feel obligated to point the behaviors out; to protest how he treats people, including me. It's kinda obvious to everyone that he's got strange issues. Mom gives me nothing -- it's always a me to her interaction, unless I even deny her that. I'm a professional "uh-huh er" now. I went through a phase where I would make some positive suggestions (to counter her total negative perception)... but those hit a brick wall.

Maybe one of my biggest revelations, was finally figuring out that my FOO's definition and picture of "who I am" and "how I am" was just as subject to the mental illness or PD or dysfunctional games - whatever - that they depend on to exist... and "who I know I am" and what other people feed back to me, as "how I am"... are world's apart. Being able to separate my own "definitions" from theirs... helped SOOOO much with my level of emotional pain. Sure it still hurts -- but my world's no longer shaken or threatened or in danger -- because of their warped ideas of me. I've processed so much cognitive dissonance in the last 5 years... and that's been so beneficial... it feels kinda like a vitamin or a vaccine!

LOL!!
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Twoapenny

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Re: Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2012, 01:33:04 PM »
Thank you so much, Tup.

Quote
the author compares it to expecting a pre school child to understand a book written for an adult.  Their brains just aren't ready for it and can't process the information, so you can read them the book a thousand times and it still won't make sense.  The N parent (or sibling/whoever) is in a similar situation - they just can't understand how you feel, no matter how hard you try to explain it.  Think of it as a kind of injury to the brain that stops that understanding being there.

This is an amazing and truly helpful analogy.  I want to, like, write it on a stickie note and keep it in a very prominent place as a reminder to myself.  I really appreciate the encouragement.  And I'm so inspired by the way you've come to accept FOOs limitations. 

It's the kind of healing work that's hard because it seems to require being in two frames of mind at once: On the one hand, I feel like I'm trying to work on some intimacy and social anxiety issues; you know, put myself out there more, use my voice, communicate my feelings to people (excluding FOO).  And on the other, I feel like I'm trying to build up emotional barriers between me and FOO; you know, be less forthcoming with NM and co-N family who will only narrow in on my weak points like snipers.  Blah...

Anyway, you all are amazing as always.  I'm so glad to have a community (you) that understands and relates.
Kay x

Hi Kay,

For a really long time I felt like I had three voices in my head - my learned responses to every single thing that was going on (largely negative and things I wanted to get rid of), my new responses (healthier but often felt 'wrong' and I'd have to have a dialogue with myself about every little thing) and me - what I wanted, felt, needed, regardless of whether it was right or wrong, okay or not.  It was exhausting, so I completely understand what you mean about trying to build yourself up whilst also putting up barriers.  It feels contradictory, but another nice analogy that I read (again, I can't remember where!) was to think of your boundaries as a fence around your home with a gate - you open the gate to let nice people in and for you to go out to meet nice people, but you close it on the not so nice.  That really helped me figure out who I wanted to be around and for how long.  I still find it difficult - I'm lonely because I got rid of a lot of the bad and I haven't got lots and lots of good yet - more than I used to but I still find long periods of time when I'm alone.  But I'd rather be lonely sometimes than put up with bad behaviour, so it's swings and roundabouts.  You get there in the end xx

KayZee

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Re: Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2012, 08:02:42 PM »
((((Bones))))

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It really hurt to know that the ONLY time the NFOO "condescends" to speak to me is ONLY WHEN THEY WANT SOMETHING or to USE me as an OBJECT!  Now that they know that I'm not afraid to say "NO" to their demands, I don't expect to hear from NFOO anymore.

This is so painful and infuriating.  You did an amazing job being frank, and enforcing your boundaries.  You're right. We have no obligation to explain the personal reasons behind these boundaries to people who will not hear our explanations, respect our feelings and even consider for a second that they might not be anything other than 100% entitled and right.

I guess I'd forgotten the way Ns turn everyone else around them into N-bots--that FOOs literally adopts an N's heinous behaviors and attitudes.  Ns infect people.  And sis is infected.

This stuff has been a wake up call like a cold bucket of water in the face.  Sis keeps pushing via email.  Telling me she's leaving for LA in 30 days and can I set up this meeting for her before she goes?  And I just keep defending the boundary, saying sorry, I'm happy to forward this woman the work once you have a completed body of work.  But don't feel comfortable asking her for a meeting (based on nothing, just some vague idea you've barely scribbled down).  It seriously feels like she just wants me to ring this woman (who I barely know) up and ask her to take my sister on as a client (just because my sis is inherently wonderful).  AGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH. 

You are very right about this family, here.  I'm seriously so grateful to be able to speak honestly about this to you all... And feel there are people in the world who hear me and relate.

Kay x


KayZee

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Re: Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2012, 08:20:28 PM »
((((((((P.R.))))))))))

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I went out of my way to try to help him with the results of our shared trauma -- the way it affected him was different than what I went through. I mentored/mothered him to a pretty stable network of life support outside of the family -- friends, sports, school. He doesn't remember any of that. When he also turned on me - played the scapegoat game - that was kinda the last straw for me.

I am so sorry for your brother's selective amnesia.   You deserve a sibling/ally--regardless of everything you've done for him--but the fact that you have done all that, and he can't seem to show you the same amount of understanding and respect...  I feel your hurt.

I relate to that strange bind with your SIL too.  After I stepped away from my family a little bit--limited my contact and stopped giving them quite as much material they could scapegoat me about--NM and sis found a new scapegoat in the form of my sister's husband.  They were horrible to him.  Sis publicly raking him over the coals for NM's entertainment and satisfaction.  It led to sis and BIL divorcing, after which the way they abused him just escalated.  It was horrible to hear about, but then, really difficult to reach out to him.  Where NM is concerned, I feel like I'm endangering myself and my recovery the more I step in to come to someone else's rescue.  Anytime I have in the past, it turns into one of those situations where the person I'm trying to rescue from drowning tries to pull me down too.

I should preface this by saying I hate Sam Vaknin.  (I watched that documentary "I, Psychopath" on Youtube).  But anyway, I went looking today and found S.V. has this to say about non-N family members behaving like narcissists:

"Question:

Is narcissism "contagious"? Can one "catch" narcissism by living with a narcissist?

Answer:

The psychiatric profession uses the word: "epidemiology" when it describes the prevalence of psychopathologies. There is some merit in examining the incidence of personality disorders in the general population. Mental health is the visible outcome of an intricate interplay between nature and nurture, genetics and culture, the brain and one's upbringing and socialization.

Yet are personality disorders communicable diseases?

The answer is more complex than a simple "yes" or "no". Personality disorders are not contagious in the restricted, rigorous, medical sense. They are not communicated by pathogens from one individual to another. They lack many of the basic features of physical-biological epidemics. Still, they are communicated.

First, there is the direct, interpersonal, influence.

A casual encounter with a narcissist is likely to leave a bad aftertaste, bewilderment, hurt, or anger. But these transient reactions have no lasting effect and they fade with time. Not so with more prolonged interactions: marriage, partnership, cohabitation, working or studying together and the like.

Narcissism brushes off. Our reactions to the narcissist, the initial ridicule, the occasional rage, or the frustration – tend to accumulate and form the sediment of deformity. Gradually, the narcissist distorts the personalities of those he is in constant touch with, casts them in his defective mould, limits them, redirects them, and inhibits them. When sufficiently cloned, the narcissist uses the people he affected as narcissistic proxies, narcissistic vehicles of vicarious narcissism.

The narcissist provokes in us emotions, which are predominantly negative and unpleasant. The initial reaction, as we said, is likely to be ridicule. The narcissist, pompous, incredibly self-centred, falsely grandiose, spoiled and odd (even his manner of speech is likely to be constrained and archaic), often elicits smirks in lieu of admiration.

But the entertainment value is fast over. The narcissist's behaviour becomes tiresome, irksome and cumbersome. Ridicule is supplanted by ire and, then, by overt anger. The narcissist's inadequacies are so glaring and his denial and other defence mechanisms so primitive that we constantly feel like screaming at him, reproaching him, or even striking at him literally as well as figuratively.

Ashamed at these reactions, we begin to also feel guilty. We find ourselves attached to a mental pendulum, swinging between repulsion and guilt, rage and pity, lack of empathy and remorse. Slowly we acquire the very characteristics of the narcissist that we so deplore. We become as tactless as he is, as devoid of empathy and of consideration, as ignorant of the emotional makeup of other people, and as one track minded. Exposed in the sick halo of the narcissist, we have been "infected".

The narcissist invades our personality. He makes us react the way he would have liked to, had he dared, or had he known how (a mechanism known as "projective identification"). We are exhausted by his eccentricity, by his extravagance, by his grandiosity, by his constant entitlement.

The narcissist incessantly, adamantly, even aggressively makes demands upon his human environment. He is addicted to his Narcissistic Supply: admiration, adoration, approval, attention. He forces others to lie to him and over-rate his achievements, his talents, and his merits. Living in a narcissistic fantasyland, he compels his closest, nearest and dearest to join him there.

The resulting exhaustion, desperation and weakening of the will are fully taken advantage of by the narcissist. He penetrates these reduced defences and, like a Trojan horse, spews forth his lethal charge. Gradually, those in proximity to him, find themselves imitating and emulating his personality traits. The narcissist also does not refrain from intimidating them into compliance with his commands.

The narcissist coerces people around him by making subtle uses of processes such as reinforcement and conditioning. Seeking to avoid the unpleasant consequences of not succumbing to his wishes, people would rather put up with his demands and be subjected to his whims. Not to confront his terrifying rages, they "cut corners", pretend, participate in his charade, lie, and become subsumed in his grandiose fantasies.

Rather than be aggressively nagged, they reduce themselves and minimise their personalities. By doing all this – they delude themselves that they have escaped the worst consequences.

But the worst is yet to come. The narcissist is confined, constrained, restrained and inhibited by the unique structures of his personality and of his disorder. There are many behaviours which he cannot engage in, many reactions and actions "prohibited", many desires stifled, many fears insurmountable.

The narcissist uses others as an outlet to all these repressed emotions and behaviour patterns. Having invaded their personalities, having altered them by methods of attrition and erosion, having made them compatible with his own disorder, having secured the submission of his victims – he moves on to occupy their shells. Then he makes them do what he has always dreamt of doing, what he has often desired, what he has constantly feared to do.

Using the same compelling procedures, he drives his mates, spouse, partners, colleagues, children, or co-workers into collaborating in the expression of the repressed side of his personality. At the same time, he negates their vague suspicion that their personality has been replaced by his when committing these acts.

The narcissist can, thus, derive, vicariously, through the lives of others, the Narcissistic Supply that he so craves. He induces in his army of zombies criminal, romantic, or heroic, impulses. He makes them travel far and fast, breach all norms, gamble against all odds, fear none – in short: he transforms them into that which he could never be.

The narcissist thrives on the attention, admiration, fascination, or horrified reactions lavished upon his proxies. He consumes the Narcissistic Supply flowing through these human conduits of his own making. Such a narcissist is likely to use sentences like "I made him", "He was nothing before he met me", "He is my creation", "She learned everything she knows from me and at my expense", and so on.

Sufficiently detached – both emotionally and legally – the narcissist flees the scene when the going gets tough. Often, these behaviours, acts and emotions induced by the proximity to the narcissist result in harsh consequences. An emotional or legal crisis, a physical or material catastrophe - are common outcomes of doing the narcissist's bidding.

The narcissist's prey is not equipped to deal with the crises that are the narcissist's daily bread and which, now, he or she are forced to confront as the narcissist's proxy. The behaviour and emotions induced by the narcissist are alien and the victim experiences a cognitive dissonance. This only aggravates the situation. But the narcissist is rarely there to watch his clones writhe and suffer."

KayZee

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Re: Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2012, 08:30:25 PM »
Thank you Tup!

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It feels contradictory, but another nice analogy that I read (again, I can't remember where!) was to think of your boundaries as a fence around your home with a gate - you open the gate to let nice people in and for you to go out to meet nice people, but you close it on the not so nice. 

I can't even begin to tell you how much hope and understanding this metaphor gives me.  It makes perfect sense (to my brain and emotions alike).  I hope the universe sends lots of nice people to your gate very soon.  Empathetic, honest, fun people who are ready for intimacy and relish two-way friendships! 

so much love and gratitude, Kay

finding peace

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Re: Sibling problems. . Was this the right thing to do?
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2012, 11:24:24 PM »
Hi KayZee,

This summed it up for me:

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God, just when I'm beginning to feel happy/grounded/centered, FOO can knock me back down in an instant.  I'm beginning to feel like I'm just done.  Finished.  And I want nothing to do with them.  There's no humanity there.  They just don't see people as people.

That was exactly how I felt when I finally decided to go NC.  It hurt - a lot.  There were so many emotions rolling around in me .... pain, rage, guilt that I wasn't enough, mad at myself for allowing them to hurt me, feeling used, feeling used up....

If I am reading correctly, it was at that point where part of me said - enough - no more.

For me the only way to stop it was NC.  I truly hope that some can find a balance, but for me I couldn't.

((((((KayZee))))))

My family used me until I felt so dried up there was nothing left for me. 

Not anymore - I've changed my focus from them to my current family (H and kids).

And life is so much better.

Love to you - I am so sorry you are going thru this.

Peace
- Life is a journey not a destination