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mudpuppy:
Is there anything inherently wrong with Narcissists besides their Narcissism?
By that I mean, absent their insane efforts to cover up what they perceive to be their fatally flawed inner self would they be "normal"?
Is even their lack of empathy a reaction to this irrational, overwhelming fear of exposure of their worthlessness, or if we could somehow eradicate their pathological dishonesty and manipulations and fears would they still be cold hearted creeps with no human feelings of love or human connection?

I guess if the lack of empathy is a reaction to their irrational fears then they are essentially "normal" people driven batty by a baseless fear.
If on the other hand they inherently lack empathy then their fears are entirely rational because they are fundamentally flawed, inherently worthless people, right?

mud

BonesMS:
I'm not comprehending.........

Hopalong:
I think that's pretty complicated Mud...but I hear the frustration in your question!
I am sorry if N-issues are rearing their ugly heads into your lives again.

I struggled for so long to figure out the Why, and after a while decided that there
just had to be a lot of nature (genes) as well as nurture (experience) in creating
this PD.

I think there's no telling how the genetic vulnerability will mix with experience and
in one person, produce somebody a little socially off but good-hearted, and in another
(same family) -- a ruthless, truly empathy free N.

I think there are a lot of people who don't have empathy who are still moral, decent people.
I was very surprised to learn about a rock-solid Good Person friend of mine, that she literally
doesn't experience empathy much. What she DOES do is concern herself with others' needs
and function in community-building with complete dedication. Not for recognition but because doing
the right thing is what she runs by.

I thought she was just being modest or something but after she told me that, I started
observing that she really doesn't have a "sympathy vibe" as most folks I know do...she really
isn't "feeling" empathy.

But she's not an N.

So the empathy-capacity is a big thing, but it's not the only thing. I think you're spot on
about the fear that drives Ns and how that clouds everything they do.

yers
Hops

mudpuppy:
Thought I was being pretty clear. Doesn't seem like a complicated question although the answer may be.
Nor is it prompted by any new happenings, just something I was wondering. Let me try again.

Are the symptoms of narcissism, including the lack of empathy, wholly a reaction by the narcissist's mind and personality to protect their inner self, which they incorrectly perceive as hopelessly flawed, from outside trauma, or;

Are the symptoms of narcissism a more fundamental disorder in that the narcissist develops a lack of empathy as well as a complete disregard for the truth and manipulates others not as part of a pointless attempt to protect an inner self they incorrectly perceive as hopelessly flawed but rather as the very essence of a person who in fact is hopelessly flawed?

In other words, is narcissism a fear based reaction to protect an otherwise "normal" personality that merely has distorted perceptions of itself or is it an organic development in itself and constitutes a very real and flawed personality that rightly fears discovery by others.

As basically as I can put it;
Is narcissism a perverse blanket covering a profoundly insecure person who is otherwise just like you and me, or is it the very core of the person?

I guess it's kind of a question about what is personality or consciousness, so perhaps it's a little more complicated than I thought. :).

sKePTiKal:
I'll bite... but I'm not sure my answer will make any sense.

I think you've probably defined two ends of the N spectrum, Mud. The one - covering up "perceived" insecurities and fears about self - with this fabulous, aren't I the cat's meow personality... is what we see a lot of these days. These people are annoying, but harmless... and they might even be treatable. (Calling Dr. G....) I have a theory about why this type seems to be everywhere - it's linked to self-esteem. I'll save it.

The folks at the other extreme probably also have a high degree of overlap into sociopathic and psychopathic characteristics. And I'm beginning to wonder if what we call "lack of empathy" is really the "defining" characteristic we think it is. (Won't go into that right now). I think at this end of the spectrum, it's that the PD-person doesn't accept the reality of, believe that other people have feelings at all... Yet, they DO experience feelings of their own - and those are the only feelings that are real to them. But they don't call them feelings... they can't separate these from "self".

But I heard the rest of the question as being: are these folks born this way, or is their PD their "coping" strategy for what they experienced a world/environment that didn't accept them, "right out of the box"? Maybe I'm trying to over-simplify or generalize, but I kinda see these two questions linked to the two ends of the spectrum...

realizing, of course, that any given individual is going to be some "different shades of gray" on both those spectrums.

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