Author Topic: Question  (Read 4858 times)

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Question
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2012, 01:07:36 PM »
Hi mud,

So, let’s say one gathered a group of difficult, acting-out, self centered 15 and 16 year olds (not hard to find!) in a room and observed them, interviewed them, gave them psychological tests, etc., would a professional be able to tell which would end up personality disordered and which would not?  The study has not been done, but I suspect not.  At these ages the brain is not fully developed—and one cannot say how they will develop from this point to about 25 (when the brain is fully developed).  What influences the changes between 15 and 25?  This has certainly been the subject of much debate. But IMO, the biggest factor is---genetics.

I believe if you observed/tested/interviewed the biological parents of these children—you would likely be able to make a significantly better prediction about how the children would end up.  And not just because of the assumption the children of narcissistic parents are being treated un-empathically. etc.  I know parents of adopted children who provided wonderful environments—and still their children became personality disordered adults that mirrored in some way one or both of their biological parents. (And as another data point, I’ve worked with people whose childhoods were pure lunacy—and they are exceptionally caring, empathic individuals.)

Now, genetics only explains about 50% of the variance, so there are other factors involved.  Are there situations or life experiences that affect a small subset of teens who have some (but not a large) genetic predisposition to adult narcissism, and serve as a tipping point?  It’s possible, but again, I’m not aware of any study that has looked into this.  

In short, there may be tipping points that affect a subset of children who end up with NPD, but I don’t know what (and when) those tipping points might be…

Richard
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 02:46:36 PM by Dr. Richard Grossman »

BonesMS

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Re: Question
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2012, 06:40:12 PM »
Hi mud,

So, let’s say one gathered a group of difficult, acting-out, self centered 15 and 16 year olds (not hard to find!) in a room and observed them, interviewed them, gave them psychological tests, etc., would a professional be able to tell which would end up personality disordered and which would not?  The study has not been done, but I suspect not.  At these ages the brain is not fully developed—and one cannot say how they will develop from this point to about 25 (when the brain is fully developed).  What influences the changes between 15 and 25?  This has certainly been the subject of much debate. But IMO, the biggest factor is---genetics.

I believe if you observed/tested/interviewed the biological parents of these children—you would likely be able to make a significantly better prediction about how the children would end up.  And not just because of the assumption the children of narcissistic parents are being treated un-empathically. etc.  I know parents of adopted children who provided wonderful environments—and still their children became personality disordered adults that mirrored in some way one or both of their biological parents. (And as another data point, I’ve worked with people whose childhoods were pure lunacy—and they are exceptionally caring, empathic individuals.)

Now, genetics only explains about 50% of the variance, so there are other factors involved.  Are there situations or life experiences that affect a small subset of teens who have some (but not a large) genetic predisposition to adult narcissism, and serve as a tipping point?  It’s possible, but again, I’m not aware of any study that has looked into this.  

In short, there may be tipping points that affect a subset of children who end up with NPD, but I don’t know what (and when) those tipping points might be…

Richard


I remember, when I was in school, the ongoing debate of Nature versus Nurture...which had the biggest influence on development?  I asked my then-instructor why not both-and?  I never got an answer.  I guess the debate rages on.

Bones
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sKePTiKal

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Re: Question
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2012, 07:54:40 AM »
Bones, real life doesn't color inside the lines or obey too many "rules" in reality.
I think, like you, that "both" is what is really the case MOST of the time.
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lighter

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Re: Question
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2012, 10:57:33 AM »
I remember researching spanking 10 years ago, which took me to statistics on sociopaths, and how they're made.

At that time, the news was:  Children are born what they are, and we can make more or less of that through parenting choices.  

We can't make them smarter, or change their DNA, but we can model how to put off gratification, and positive habits/coping strategies/study habits/etc.  We can model the skills they need to make better choices, or not.  Certainly the children who have positive role models have a better shot than those who have negative or damaging role models, and the biggest indicator of how children will turn out, at that time, was the age of the mother when she gives birth the first time.  The younger the mother, the worse all her childrens' chances for doing well.

Also at that time, the general rule of creating sociopaths  was a formula of placing children into so many foster homes so many times in the first so many years of their lives, disrupting their ability to bond for life.  I guess they call that Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD now), and at that time I had a friend knee deep in poop and blood with a step son who was bent on killing her younger infant daughter while smearing crap all over the house, and eating it on occassion.  Trying to beat his sister's head in with a rock, then moving to knives, then to scissors, then to breaking glass to make sharp weapons when all sharps were removed or kept out of his reach was traumatic, esp as there was very little support and help for my friend during this time.  Her ss ended up institutionalized, but his PD mother got him back soon enough, and my friend just had to say no to having him in her presence again.  We know for a fact this beautiful strawberry blond blue eyed child will be out there in the dating pool at some point, and that it's just a matter of time before he does something terrible that can't be undone, and we hope it doesn't happen to someone we know.  How dreadful to live this way, but eventually frustration that nothing can be done to protect society from these people wears you down into apathy, and you become more aware, but what can you do?  We can't brand children who exhibit violent sociopathic, and we can't necessarily get them help either.  Even if we do get them help sometimes there's nothing that will change their path, nothing.  I'm betting that the majority of identified violent recidivist offenders in our penal system exhibited symptoms as children, and you don't have to wonder how that just squeaks through without notice.  The system doesn't have a plan in place to address them.  The sytem is broken and dealing in the business of triage, with the worst cases getting too little attention in a system set up to give the children back to dysfunctional parents/caretakers, bc there's no funds/system in place to do better than they are right now, and the system is failing miserably.  

Another friend at that time was struggling with 2 same age adopted children from Russian orphanages (a boy and a girl), and there was definite symptoms of RAD in both children, but the boy was overtly violent, and unable to bond in more obvious ways that the little girl.  As I talked with the mother, and spent more time with her, I realized she wasn't all that stable either, and I have to say I'm disappointed that I didn't do more to help her and her children, but what was I going to do?  Report her to CPS?  I didn't see that would be at all helpful, frankly, but I did see red flags,and I did think about helping, and I was hampered by the lack of help and solutions, as I'm sure the majority of people witnessing similar situations are hampered every day, but what are our choices if we want to help, and not just make things worse?  I see CPS as a weapon to be wielded by people who don't meet the required level of abuse that would call for a child to be placed in foster care.  I also see foster care as likely to do more damage than the FOO situation.  The mother ended up moving away and I lost touch with her sadly, which haunts me still,but I had my own dragons to slay, which is true about everyone.  Push comes to shove, the best I could do for her was suggest she take her son, with his black eye, to daycare knowing daycare workers had a duty to report...... to not hide the injury, even though she felt her son would say it was her, and not her husband who delivered the black eye.  What was I to do, I still don't have a good answer for that question.  How are things going to get better, if we don't DO something positive every time we have the chance, and with no good choices, what do we choose among so many bad choices.  That the choices are all bad makes it more probable we'll end up choosing apathy out of frustration, IME.

Anyhow, 5 or so years ago a psychiatrist told me that it's very easy to create a sociopath.... all you have to do is put a child in a family where the parents have parenting skills at opposite ends of the spectrum.....  one very lenient, and the other very punitive for example, etc.

All in all, I'd say that there are unlimited chances and possibilities factoring in to a child's ability to overcome challenging DNA and their FOO circumstances, none of which seems to be in control of the child, and I still can't separate out empathy for the less damaged, over the more damaged PD's, born or made, or created by good intentioned parents who simply don't know any better, but certainly don't fit our definition of abusive parents, or by overwhelmed Russian nuns who don't have the time, resources, or ability to cradle and nurture every orphaned child in their care, and so the children are dileivered into adoptive homes (if they're lucky) with flat heads, bc they've never been picked up in their first months of life.  And, what does having an ill shaped skull do to an infant's brain, do'ya think? 

IME, living with abuse and dysfunction is an aggression building exercises, just like soldiers throwing each other out of mud pits in boot camp.  When I reflect on the most aggressive people in my life, I can trace back their most challenging behaviors to abuse in their childhoods, and I can tell you these people are doing 1000s of times better for their own children, than their abusive parents did for them.  It's difficult when you look at the parenting that was modeled for them, and the fear/abuse/terror they sustained systematically year after year from birth.  The abuser was shielded by family members, and enabled to harm, and what share of responsibility do those enablers deserve over the sick, broken addicted abuser they raised,and the abuser they raised, and so on?  The cause isn't the one abuser we're identifying/suffering/housing in our prisons in the moment, obviously, IMO.  The cause is something much deeper, and it'sunderstandably easier to focus  on building more and larger prisons, and punishing the least intelligent/broken/mentally ill members of society who get caught, while allowing the people who contributed to their mental illness to continue offending without pause, but I don't think it's going to be part of anything better should we manage to turn the tide.

Run on sentence, anyone? :?

Lighter

« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 01:18:11 PM by lighter »

BonesMS

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Re: Question
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2012, 01:33:54 PM »
Bones, real life doesn't color inside the lines or obey too many "rules" in reality.
I think, like you, that "both" is what is really the case MOST of the time.

Thanks, P.R.!

Bones
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sKePTiKal

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Re: Question
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2012, 07:10:12 AM »
Hey, Lighter... you don't really need punctuation or grammar; your meaning comes across loud & clear to me.

Something occurred to me tho... and that is the people looking for abuse of kids are looking for and at the wrong things. They're looking for signs of physical abuse - and completely ignoring the FACT that so much abuse is invisible on the bodies of the kids. You might see it in their eyes; behavior...

Sure there are parents who are oblivious to basic child care - nutrition, cleanliness, basic social rules and conformity... but the truth is those things are more a symptom of something more damaging and life-altering. Sure there is violence - the stories we hear of children locked in small storage areas for 10 years, kids beaten till bones are broken and faces disfigured... Bones tells bits & pieces of a story that chills me right to my toes and makes me wonder in awe at the miracle of her survival.

But the A-#1 form of child abuse is simply not recognizing a child as a human being -- that the parent cares about in a healthy way. Without that, all the other outward things can follow Dr. Spock -- but the kid still winds up damaged. A kid can still survive that -- but only if there is contact with other adults who are able to spend time with the kid, reach out and into those eyes, to comfort their little abandoned, objectified  hearts.

As far as I'm concerned, a root cause of a lot of social issues is the prevalence of these kids who grew up without attachments; the emotionally abandoned of the world. Those who feel invisible -- all the time. The variety of human reactions to that state of "sense of self" run the gamut from appealing, needy to angry and vengeful and .... the behavior that lines up with the symptoms of PDs, too. I tend to see these kids - they stand out to me like I'm wearing special glasses - and I try to at least smile at them; I don't have an opportunity to do much more -- without being accused of being predatory! (oh... the irony....)

At one time, I thought a lot of the concern writing the new DSM was to distinguish this kind of environmentally "nurtured" (ironic use) PD with the more serious, biologically based, PD. Maybe I got the wrong idea. But it sure seems like this would be useful in treatment.
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gratitude28

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Re: Question
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2012, 11:22:03 PM »
Mud,
This question bothers me, too, but I had never put it into words. I don't think a normal person ever developed. The person that is an N is a baby - no emotions and only the ability to cry and scream to get attention. I don't know what retards their growth, but there can't be a person without some kind of feeling or empathy, do you think??????
xxoo
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cat

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Re: Question
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2012, 05:33:40 PM »
Hi Mud!  My N Mother is no longer here.  At the end of her life - when she wound up in Assisted Living / and then Skilled Nursing - the staff had a very difficult time with her.  They insisted she seek therapy - and it was determined there were psychological issues going on her entire life. 

While my sister and I lived it - we had no idea this was going on.  We only knew we had a very difficult mother - and we thought that was normal.  Near the end of her life - when we heard from the doctors - we were able to breathe.  Our inability to please her - to change into what she wanted us to be was diminished. - - - Cat