Confused about my T feelings - please advise

[Ales2]

I feel silly posting this, but here goes. I think I understand it, but when I post here, I get really good, helpful answers that I had not considered and its very validating.

Anyway, so one thing left over my from T was that when I was wallowing in self pity, usually over things I missed, that I tried hard for but never got, a house, marriage and my own family, certain successful projects in my career that I worked for but never got anywhere with...anger with my NMom for having discouraged me in these things and me not being smart to see her undermining. I know that I sounded jealous of those people who had it and achieved it, kind of like a "have-not". Self pity, jealousy, disappointment with my own lack of achievement..etc.

I got weird feelings from him. Some was:
his judgment of me for wallowing in self pity, jealousy, disappointment;
some was like a cruel irony like I don't deserve it or are not capable of it anyway (which really hurt)
some was lack of compassion or validation for my feelings of failure and despair
some was just feeling awkward, hurt and taken advantage of, I opened up to him more than any other person, trusted him and I got nothing in return from him

I'm still hurt obviously (this was 2010 and 2011), and I dont get what he was trying to do. He made me feel much worse, and feel foolish for trusting him with my feelings, but I wonder if this was some exercise or strategy like he'd let me vent and I'd outgrow it? If so, that makes me mad because it was not helpful at all. I feel more and confused and hurt than when I went in.

Anyone have any thoughts on this --- i.e my feelings or his actions?

[Ales2]

Thats why I was there - to resolve my problems and work towards self improvement or achieving what I was capable of and that did not happen. Im confused - no guidance means no progress.

[Twoapenny]

Hi Ales,

I don't think I'm able to explain or guess as to why your T said or did things that made you feel that way, but I do think it showed he wasn't doing a very good job.

I had numerous sessions with my T about things I'd missed out on, people who'd taken advantage of my inability to say no, my lack of drive and ambition, my inability to finish projects and my, at times, seething jealousy of people who had the things I didn't.  I hated that I couldn't feel happy for people who'd done well or just be glad that they had nice families.

My T was sympathetic, understanding, helped me understand how early childhood messages can carry over into your adult life (I don't deserve this, I'm not good enough to do this).  We didn't work on it endlessly, it came up and went away again over a long period of time.  I still find I have pangs over people who have an 'easy' life, although one thing I have realised is that a lot of people have a lot more problems than they let on or that can be seen from the outside.

So in short I think what your T was doing was inappropriate and unprofessional and I'm not suprised that it still bothers you.  I have seen therapists in the past who have done more harm than good and it's a bit of a minefield out there.  I hope you are able to find someone else you can talk things through with who will help you get back on your feet again? xxx

[BonesMS]

One thing I've noticed regarding therapists.....not all of them GET IT when we attempt to discuss being a survivor of an N....especially an N-Womb-Donor.  They can't seem to wrap their brains around the fact that those who gave birth do not automatically become mothers.  THEY NEVER WERE MOTHERS!

Bones

[Hopalong]

I think I relate, Ales...maybe because I'm both so long in the tooth and so, errr, challenged...I've seen a LOT of Ts since my 20s.

Now and then, there would be one who just could barely sit still when I really got going on my pain (or self-pity). I think the problem was that neither that person, nor I, in that period, could tell the difference. What is whining? What is grieving? What is wallowing? What is walking wounded?

Usually, when a deep vein of pain was simply tapped, and I sat stunned into grief, and showed that depth of sadness...compassion was what I got. But when I really didn't have anything new to say, and more to the point, didn't have any courage to do something different than recycle it...some Ts had more tolerance for that than others. When I was young I also talked really fast, nonstop, just pouring it out nearly breathlessly for 60 minutes...which must've been exhausring to sit with. (And some Ts in this world, actually dislike some of their clients. They're human too. And yet, they don't "recuse" themselves, so everybody sits there in misery until the client gives up and moves on. I think the most skilled T is able to help even someone they don't personally like very much, and can hide those feelings from the client, and still do the great beautiful work of helping that client get "unstuck.")

Some Ts are in the field because they love humanity (like Doc G). Others are in it because they are wounded themselves, searching for their own healing, and that's okay, who isn't...but some project their frustrations with their own wounds onto clients.

I think Bones has an important point about lack of comprehension about the sock-monkey feeling many children of Nmothers have.

I think finding someone new is important, and sharing with them exactly what you've written here. If there's a "click" of understanding, that new T may help you move forward.

love
Hops
PS--I think some problems are solved, and some evolve. And that it takes as long as it takes. But the finish line's foggy.

[Baddaughter]

I've only had one "t" in my adult life and used him several (11-12) years ago for emotional problems that I was having about the time i realized I had a drinking problem.  In retrospect, his insights into alcoholism were less than advanced, but I got so much help from my 12 step program, that i overlooked his ineptitude.  Of course, I now see the drinking as a symptom of my upbringing and Ns all around but was relieved of the drinking and moved on.  Fast forward to two years ago when life events (non supportive spouse, death of N parents, job stress and failing vision ) brought me to my knees again.  I naturally thought of him and scheduled with him.  Again, he was dismissive of everything I said and it was apparent that he felt that all my problems were of my own making, I should not speak ill of dead and to quote him "You'll come out on top -- You always do!"  This was as I sitting there exhibiting all the symptoms of PTSD!  So I didn't have the mental acuity at the time to realize that he was "phoning it in," and possibly thought that I was a malingering baby who did not respect her parents.  Fortunately for me, the guy unceremoniously dumped me not too long into my "treatment."  Unfortunately, it caused me to mistrust and fear baring my soul to someone new and it has only been recently that I have been able to consider re-entering treatment to further work on my issues.  I respected him and valued him and in the end he treated me like so many -- disrespected and voiceless again.  He did not refer me to anyone else, just basically stopped taking my calls and would not schedule me.  I was in a pretty bad way at the time:  mood swings, outbursts, flashbacks to eye surgery, nightmares and poor functioning.   (to name a few)  It has taken me a year to even consider seeing anyone else, which I believe may have held back my recovery.  I am doing a good bit better now and plan to try to get into some sort of support network so that I can be higher functioning than I am now.  No job -- still unsupportive spouse, family problems with remaining Ns etc.    I am hoping to be admitted into a group for PTSD but not sure yet and can't afford my own therapist at this point.  A few of my friends were more help than the therapist but it only goes so far.  Mostly, I have improved myself.  In the process of my latest "illness," I was exposed to some real whiners who seemed to be "looping" around the same problems over and over and getting themselves into the same problems over and over.  I have forgiven the guy -- maybe he hears the same things over and over and lacks the insight to separate whining from real trauma.  Anyway, I whined awhile myself and felt that I had no choice at the time  -- but the whiners taught me as much as he did.  I am convinced that no drug or therapist is going to get me out of this problem or this series of problems.  My symptoms have now diminished to where I can function a lot better than a year ago and I am ready to piece together the threads of my life and am seeing "what's what."  I think the rejection by the T of me and what I was going through did hold me back a ways.  I'm not saying it was rational, but his rejection of me made me feel very bad -- hurt pride, idea of having to repeat repeat repeat with someone new, disrespect  -- Wah!  Now I realize that he is just a guy and maybe good at helping some problems but hysterical middle aged woman with a market list of troubles is not his strength.  Too bad for me.  Upshot is that wallowing has only taken up my own time and I am just hoping that he is a better teacher (teaches at local univ.) than he is a clinician.  I must have been in such turmoil that I was sending out cues to him that he misread. (?)
But i always come back here for comfort and insight -- and as always -- there is always something here for me.    Love, Biddy

[Ales2]

Thanks everyone for your posts.

Two - appreciate your support -

So in short I think what your T was doing was inappropriate and unprofessional and I'm not suprised that it still bothers you.  I have seen therapists in the past who have done more harm than good

Part of it is that I dont understand, how he could sit across from me from ages 40-43, watching me break up with a guy I loved, knowing I want to be married and have children and really have nothing constructive or encouraging to say. He is sitting there watch my chances to have children dwindle and was not even helpful. I dont get that at all.

Bones - you are correct, he doesnt get the NWomb donors.

Hops "Usually, when a deep vein of pain was simply tapped, and I sat stunned into grief, and showed that depth of sadness...compassion was what I got. But when I really didn't have anything new to say, and more to the point, didn't have any courage to do something different than recycle it...some Ts had more tolerance for that than others. When I was young I also talked really fast, nonstop, just pouring it out nearly breathlessly for 60 minutes...which must've been exhausring to sit with. (And some Ts in this world, actually dislike some of their clients. They're human too. And yet, they don't "recuse" themselves, so everybody sits there in misery until the client gives up and moves on. I think the most skilled T is able to help even someone they don't personally like very much, and can hide those feelings from the client, and still do the great beautiful work of helping that client get "unstuck.") - you are correct with all of this, thanks.

I also agree with you Hops - and think that some problems cannot be solved, they are challenges to be managed over time. I think this is true with Ns. When first discovering Nism, I think I saw it as a problem I could  solve, in some ways, the new understanding does solve a lot instantly, the lightbulb moment, where struggle ends and information gives new choices. But, after the initial a-ha moment, when the N remains part of your life, it can only be managed, not solved, unless we choose NC, and that is another set of challenges (i.e to be managed, not solved .

Thanks everyone for your comments, they were very helpful!  Instead of being frustrated by it, I can see it for what is probably was - bad therapy.

[Ales2]

Biddy - OK wow, our posts intersected!

Thank you so much - you are right on with what was (and is still happening) with me. Job loss, for me, overeating and overcharging, not being able to get job projects completed, low functioning in all areas except paying bills on time and keeping house/car/self clean and organized (Im OCD with that.) Outwardly, I look Ok, with an extra 15 pounds, but inwardly still struggling. Not a total mess, but struggling.

I can totally relate to having opened up, gotten nothing in return and then feeling more violated. The rejection does hurt, what I dont get is since these Ts know we are hurt by rejection, why reject us and our feelings further? Most times I can deal with rejection, in not getting a job or getting a date, but consistent rejection over long periods of time (10 year of dating, one boyfriend for one year) causes severe anxiety, hopelessness and despair. I wondered why he was not helpful with this part. Its traumatic for sure. Going in, explaining it, having it minimized when seeking help makes it worse.

And, yes, I felt like he thought my problems were of my own making too, and if it is, thanks! Thanks for labeling me as the failure. Labeling me, the patient, as the failure responsible entirely for my own issues means everyone around me is sane, my boss really is a nice guy instead of sexually harassing verbal abuser and that business partner who manipulated me, lied and stole a prospective 900k from me is not a thief and a liar, he is a highly decorated govt official after all! Great!  I will alert the media!  (SARCASM:)

Feeling rejected, voiceless, disrespected, and feeling my trust violated..you hit the nail on the head with your explanation. Thanks.

[Ales2]

My only thought can be that they let us vent, to where we don't feel helped (we feel helpless,despairing) and when we are ready to move on, we get over the hurt of their lack of help and not being rescued or encouraged, we encourage ourselves and learn not to bother others with out deepest and darkest thoughts since that only leads us further down the rabbit hole?

Is emotional self sufficiency what they are helping us develop?

ughhhh... not sure but have to wonder.

[Ales2]

One last thing about holding the patient responsible for failures. I get it - personal responsibility is key with all aspects of life, not going to get an argument from me here. BUT. And this BUT is very important with Therapy. Personal responsibility is also based on being able to make good sound decisions. If I am being manipulated by a boyfriend, friend, neighbor, boss even on a benign level, how can one take responsibility aside from their responses in the situation? Is it not the goal of therapy to aid in making good decisions and not being blind? Wouldnt the T at least help the patient question themselves in a respectful way? I can pick and choose, sure, but cant choose well if I cant see the person for what they are. If therapy promotes the "its all good" mentality, how can someone avoid negativity (of varying kinds,  including bad therapists!) .

And, what happens when I just cant see the same mistake I am making? Is it not the need of therapy for the T to help me see past my own blind spots? I liked Dr. G's article where he talks about people making the same choice over and over again, not consciously, but unconsciously choosing people who help them heal. If Dr. G told me no apples, I would choose the orange. But what if everything is all packaged the same and I cant tell the orange from the apple until I bite into it? Then the only choice is to walk away when you see it for what it is, which is what I do anyway, repetitievly in complete frustration. 

[Ales2]

Biddy - one more thing - what your therapist did - dismissing your feelings and assuming you are a malingering baby was awful!  So sorry you went through that. 

It was also unprofessional and cruel to stop taking calls without BOTH explanation and referral. If he cant help you, he should HELP by referring you to someone who can.

I can totally relate to not be able to trust another therapist. Your experience sounds worse than mine. With me, I sometimes think if I were to go back and try to "work it out with him" I would only be lining his pockets and getting nothing more than frustration in return. Not wise in my book.

Anyway ((((((Biddy)))))))

[sKePTiKal]

Sorry I'm late here... but I see another possibility. You touched on it briefly, Ales... but didn't quite get to absorbing the whole enchilada.

When we have feelings, what changes those?
How do we learn to let things go -- and what on earth DOES this mean, "let it go", existentially?

When we have the same crappy feeling, over & over, and over & over until it seems like dogma, reality, and the doomed fate of our lives... what is that trying to tell us?

There are different approaches to T. And within those disciplines, there's sort of a personal style to each T.

My T would let me tell my story -- until I got to one of those painful brick walls, and then simply let me FEEL the feelings and be there for me. Self-pity, in my case, was an avoidance technique for grieving my very real emotional losses. :shrug:  In a way, it was functionally dysfunctional... my logic, if you can call it that, was because NO ONE ELSE cared, by indulging in self-pity I could at least acknowledge the existence of the fact that caring SHOULD exist in the world and that I was a candidate to be cared about.

We spent a couple years doing this. It felt like years, anyway. I had to get to know this from the inside, be able to see it from the outside like it was someone else's problem, puzzle over the alternatives... try some things on for size, see if they fit... and then one day - the bubble just popped. And the world was vibrant, fascinating, and charming... colors were brighter... birds were happy... and I was walking about 6 inches above the ground giddy-happy. (That wears off; life happens...)

The "work" that we did was NOT her guiding me to "do this", "feel that", "think this"... the work was simply her giving me her time and attention - and CARING - while I continued to suffer through really feeling my grief, my aloneness in my experiences of the past, until I'd REALLY let myself feel it - and realize, nope; I didn't "fall apart" into a blathering idiot or go crazy from it. It sounds so simple, doesn't it?

It was really hard work, for me. It must've been frustrating for her because my creative streak meant I was never at a loss for some evasive avoidance scheme. She had to repeat the above quite a few times, before I couldn't avoid the obvious anymore. The obvious is:

Life isn't always fair.
Some of us have more shit to walk through than others; but we all got our own shit.

Shit washes off.
--------------------------------------------------------------

One of the reasons, I think, that there are different kinds of therapy is because people are all so different. This (above) worked for me. Sounds like this T you described, and I would've hit it off. But it didn't work for YOU. That time, anyway. Maybe another time, and you'd be ready to face the worst of the feeling - feel it - and get to the point, where you'd know what to do on your own and be able to do it, without getting "stuck" on "repeat" of it. I took breaks; went back and then kept going. I must've learned SOMETHING, because even this horrible thing with my D and grandsons, as much as it triggers my old stuff - and feeling bad for them, too - is "do-able"... and every once in awhile, I can even find good, legitimate ways to help. Oh - and I still have my old quirks and my old avoidance techniques are still hard-wired into my brain.

But I can "see" it better now... and shift gears or change direction.

[Meh]

There was a grief group that I went to a couple of winters ago.

The therapist who organized it was big on people having their experiences and ALSO he did stop people and cut people off with certain things because he said there were certain cycles that people get caught in that just keep people stuck.

Not sure if that has any relation to what you have stated.

It sounds mainly like you really need to have somebody understand your experiences.

Maybe the therapist is not the best match for you...

[Ales2]

Okay, so I called another therapist today. Published author. Met her once at a book signing and lecture. Very well known had a radio/tv show.  The session rate is too expensive for me.

I said that I was stuck, even though I know what to do (look for job, date) but can't seem to do it on my own. I have an inertia and procrastination problem I hope to solve. I need a kick in the pants essentially. I have lost my confidence and even though I know I am worthy in ways I did not before, Ive lost my mojo and drive. I need to get it back. In the book, she has done work with people with similar problems.

My concerns are the following:

 1) too expensive, money better spent on other things (i.e i have no income)

 2) my default N wound - is that there is a "mental block" (my N mother told this to my friends mother at lunch when I was 8 years old, if you can believe that), something wrong with me that needs to be solved/fixed/ changed/eliminated - this is what I believed all my life, its not true, I have a self esteem and worthiness/assertiveness problem that is the result of this N wound. Basically, my N wound is a LIE. All of them are. Focusing on that LIE kept me from living my life productively and kept me as a people pleaser.

 3) Ill be a wounded child, a malingering baby - when I need to grow up and be more emotionally self sufficient, ie support myself emotionally, the therapist can tell me that, but of course, I'll be in therapy continuiing to be a baby, if that makes sense.

 4) My fears are that the job search is more "loaded" there are more issues attached to it this time - from 23-40, when I was financially indepdent, I attracted N bosses and bullies, not knowing why. When I got laid off the last time, thats when my life unraveled, I went through a year on unemployment and used another 20k in savings. At some point, I asked my N mother for $$$ and then several months later discovered she's a N. So, I needed her money before I knew what a huge mistake I was making. So, this tiem aroudn, getting a job, is also severing ties with her and will have to be for me to move on enough.

So, here I am. Not sure I want to start up therapy again. A little afraid of the expense, and not hearing anything I dont know already. I wish I could morph back into the old me, the hard working independent one, I was like that once before and was very successful in some way, just not now. And, I want to maintain the depth of what I have learned and before I was little more aloof and insecure that was hidden behind the hard work.

[Ales2]

My pet peeve with therapists is this:

Quote
Blaming people, life or your family is like wearing cement boots swimming & wondering why your drowning?? Own your life no-one else can!

Written by my former therapist on his twitter page. He doesn't seem to understand the negative conditioning and coping patterns that come from NMothers...except, guess what, he wrote a book about it.  Hard to believe that he can be this insensitive.  As a therapist, his job is to help his patients understand their maladaptive coping patterns from NMoms that interfere with them taking full responsibility for their life.  No wonder therapy with him did not work out.