any savvy dogsters here?

[Hopalong]

I adopted an adorable little rescue who is a complete cupcake with me...
but has nipped at (first) a few friends and now BITTEN one. Not a deep
bite but very unprovoked, and she broke the skin. On each leg!

I am distressed because I don't know if I should keep her. On our own
she is just the perfect companion. Super affectionate, funny, dear, and
very peaceful in the house. It's when people come in that she loses it.

I will talk to a trainer, but it's likely fairly hardwired fear biting or territorial
biting. I know it can be managed with crating and leashing-during-company
and permanent vigilance, but the truth is, I got a dog to reduce my stress.
She does in many ways, but I'm just not up for having to worry about this
for 10 or so years.

I wonder if it's more fair to her to return her (it's an excellent, high-end,
and no-kill SPCA) so she'd have a chance to be adopted by someone who
can do long detaled behavior training with her. I just can't. It's already
pushing the envelope to have to leave her for 3 looooooooong days per
week (and two shorter ones) while I work. But the director told me it's
still a home for her, and better, and she'd cope.

She's just adorable. She's recovering from huge surgeries (removed top
--the ball--of the hip and has steel plates in the other hind leg). When they
got her as a stray she'd obviously been hit and never treated (she is
terrified of pickup trucks, so that seems clear)...and she has had litter/s
and was full of parasites. So clearly, not well socialized and nobody taught
her anything.

I just don't know if with all the other worries/stresses in my life, I should
take this on. She is precious and I'm a softie, but drawing blood, and
being anxious over friends' visits, would put a big dent in that joy.

Advice welcome.

thanks,
Hops

[Meh]

what if you just put a mini muzzle on her for the duration of "stranger danger"...or is that considered unkosher

[lighter]

Hops:

I think you might want to return this dog.

It will be an added stress. 

It will add tension to your life.

It will be a problem, now and in the future, IME.

Get a dog you can take into town, tie outside Starbucks while you get your cup, and enjoys pets from strangers.  Very social and enjoyable, and will still bark when something's askew at the house.  After midnight.  When you just watched a scary movie.

Good luck with your choice,
Lighter

[Twoapenny]

Aw, Hopsie, this is a horrible situation for you to be in.  Unfortunately some dogs have been through such a bad time that they develop problems that need really specialist help/training.  As sad as it is, I'd be inclined to take her back.  It might be that you could still walk her or something until she is rehomed again, or even that they can sort out the problem and then she could come back to you?

We've had two situations with rescue pets in the past.  The first was a dog, who was gorgeous but, when out with me, attacked anything that came near us.  She was fine with my boyfriend and behaved perfectly when out with him, or the two of us together, but me on my own and she went for anyone or anything that got too close.  It got to the point that (a) I avoided walking her and (b) when I did take her out I had to keep her on her lead and go to places early in the day (or late evening) so there was less chance of seeing anyone.  As Lighter says, it's all extra stress and if something really bad happens you will find it so hard to forgive yourself.

Our second rescue was a cat who had some real behavioural issues; I worked really hard with him for about three months, following advice from the vet and the rescue centre.  He nipped and bit and generally didn't like people.  One morning he attacked my son, no provocation at all, and I had to take him to hospital the next day because the bites were infected.  He went straight back to the cattery that day.

It's such a shame because I do think it's people that make them like this, and some people I know have had lovely pets from rescue centres.  But I agree with Lighter, you don't want to be constantly worrying about what might happen and dog bites can leave permanent scarring.  Hopefully the rescue centre might be able to retrain her so she calms down a bit? xx

[Hopalong]

Thanks much, guys.
Boat, the muzzle idea would work but so would a leash or closing her in a bedroom.
I just don't want to commit to years of vigilance against "stranger danger" if it's deeply rooted.
Really love this critter but don't feel ready to commit to a constant maintenance of safety thing.

Lighter, that's right. I want a dog who can love being out in public, not only me.

But lord, she is the SWEETEST "home companion." If it were the two of us in
a bubble, I'd be happy with her forever. SO sweet in her interactions w/me.

Tupp, I'm waiting for a return contact from the SPCA...hadn't occurred to me I
might return her "for rehab" and then try her again. I wonder if that would work?

Thank you all,
Hops

[debkor]

Hi Hops.

I have had a few (bad behavior) rescue dogs.  She may be a sweetie with you because (she is being possessive) with you (your house)  and so on.  It's work to Try to turn this around.  First...it's your house.  You are (head dog).  She does not get to run your house.  Have you given her full freedom?  I am a firm believer of crate training.  When your at work ( crate).  When she eats ( out of your hand) then allow the bowl.  When you walk around house (leash her to a loop on your pants) she must follow....  take lead....  It is a LOT of work.  The leash (was my best friend when I was training) with company..  I now have a doxie that is a sweet as can be and will roll on his back with just a certain tone and what I say...Leave it alone...and he does.  But it's work!


I for the 1st time in 15 years bought a Pug puppy.  The reason I choose pugs is because I love their personalities!!  And of course my friend is a pug breeder.

This litter was the last.  I loved her dogs so much I had to get one of the last of the pups.  My other friend bought 2 and my teenage sons friend bought one.  So
I'm up to my eyeballs in pugs..play..the pug run..and the little clowns of dog world.

If you want to give your new fur kid a chance 1st let her know your not her possession.  Make her earn (with good behavior).  You can try some of the above.,

Ah!  It's hard when you become attached!!  I do love dogs!!

But I have returned one and had to put another down (was extremely dangerous) 105 lbs..

Deb

[Twoapenny]

Hi Hops,

It might work, I have a friend who trains difficult dogs and she reckons most dogs can be helped, but it takes a lot of time, energy and you need to really know your stuff - plus you'd have the worry of what might happen when friends visit while you're trying to do it.  So they might be able to do something, it's lovely that she's bonded with you like that, bless her, and I hope you can work something out xx

[lighter]

Hops:

With so many wonderful dogs available for rescue, I just see you with sweet lab mix dog that loves to go out into the world, and embrace fellowship.

If you return this dog, you can inform the folks in charge that she's the perfect dog for someone who's interested in home protection........

[i with the expectation the dog will never ever be for public consumption.[/i] 

Won't greet burglars happily at the door.

Can't be bought off with a treat, bc it's THIS dog's job to protect and defend.

That's something special, and there are people out there who actually seek those kinds of dogs OUT.

Women dealing with dangerous ex's are absolutely looking for lovely companion dogs that can also make them feel safe in their homes. 

Giving her back doesn't mean you're giving up on her or letting her down.  It could mean you're making her available for someone who NEEDS this dog.

Right now.

Just say'in.

Lighter
ps There are dog trainers who actually train dogs to BE what your little friend is right now.  It's a particular thing.  Not necessarily a BAD thing.  Yes, it adds stress to your life, but it could be the thing that makes it possible for someone else to sleep at night, kwim?  Perhaps the shelter could contact aq women's shelter to find out if there's someone out there looking for this little friend right now?

[Hopalong]

I've gotten some reassurance that she may just need some time to heal, and trust that I'll protect her, and that she can venture out into the world and learn that people are friends.

I'm right now thinking I wanna give it a go.

Haven't had this much love in my home in ages...we spent an hour just talking (well, me--she was wagging) and goofing around on the floor and being silly...sooooooooooooo healing.

I'll see what the trainer says before I decide it's not worth it. She's not a vicious dog, she's a scared dog. But only 3 y/o....she might be young/plastic enough to learn some happy new realities. I'll just be responsible about handling guest visits and introduce other new outings gradually, in small excursions, as she regains strength.

But if it really does happen again and shows me it's an intractable problem, I will not be afraid to make the hard call.

xo and thank you for caring about me!

Hops

[Twoapenny]

Hope it all works out, Hops, will be sending healing vibes to your pooch!  They are lovely friends to have, fingers crossed she starts to feel safe soon.

[sKePTiKal]

Hi Hopsie:

I'm so glad you found a buddy!

Yes, I'm familiar with this behavior. My old "buddy" has bitten several people - including me. We know it was abuse from before we untied him from the tree we found him under. It's not even a herding, protective response. The groomer won't work with him, because she won't muzzle him and he bit her. So I muzzle him and "work with him" - i.e., not force him to do anything he obvious REALLY doesn't want to. Makes for funny hair cuts!

He is unpredictable about the biting. I have actually seen like a switch get flipped - in his eyes and demeanor - and watched happy, huggy, waggy Raleigh get replaced with Cujo. In an instant. This is a huge, huge problem when company is here - especially the little people company who aren't able to follow rules like: don't wave your sandwich around and get it near the dog. The dog gets separated a lot - and since he IS really social and he just loves people and is protective of the little ones - he doesn't understand and feels left out. But I can't take the chance that he would flip his switch and bite someone else.

The vet has tried paxil - to calm him down, but really that was just a temporary brain reset. Mike & I take turns "herding" him - letting him know he's safe and we want him around, too. Sometimes, half a dramamine helps, too. But Raleigh's about 60-70 lbs; those dosages need to adjust. We have all the other old-age issues too, along with a life-long recurring ear infection. SIGH.... he'll be 13 next month; quite the old man for either Cocker/Golden Retriever... and he's a mix of both. The biting has gotten worse, as his physical condition has declined... something to think about for the future. We had been able to trust him with the babies in the family, when he was younger. They climbed all over him.

[Hopalong]

Dang. I hear y'all. She's still on probation, but I really am going to work
with her for a few months and see what happens. Before the Big Decision.

So far, I have noticed that with my gentlest-natured friends, she's doing fine.
Comes over and with one, just sat there and soaked up lots of petting.

Perhaps it's true that you can rebuild a fearful dog's confidence, after a long bad time.
I sure hope so. But I'll take the trainers' advice to heart, as well, and balance it
with my own limitations.

Because our evenings are ridiculously blissful. This critter CRAVES affection
and once I sit on the floor with her, it's an amazing cuddle.

You'll think I'm ridiculous but I swear there's a lot of communication. Most
of the time I keep it upbeat and a little goofy, and we do things cheerfully.
But last night after a lot of tickles and such, I paused, rubbed her belly with
its distended teats, and just looking into her eyes, said or "thought" (can't
remember) to her: I know you had puppies, and I am very sorry that you
lost them. I said it like...serious compassion.

She stilled, looked at me seriously back, sighed, then licked my hand.
(And she's not a licker.)

Sure felt like a two-way exchange of something deep to me...

Then we're back to bouncing around and happy together stuff.

xo
Hops

[BonesMS]

The fur-baby knows....she knows.  No such thing as a dumb animal.

[sKePTiKal]

Well, Hops... I wasn't trying to dissuade you; more pointing out what it could be like if she doesn't reform over time. It's do-able, if you remember that your new friend has "been there, done that" too -- and may have reasons for acting less than friendly that you can't know.

Raleigh's just fine with one stranger at a time. When it's a group of people, he does get overwhelmed, over-excited and it's simply too much for one dog to keep track of at once. I kinda know that place, too. LOL... that's why I'm always close to the edges of those scenes, and not smack dab in the middle, myself.

M has always said, that our dog is a total empath; he reads my emotional state and experiences it himself. (I used to think this was a way of trying to stick the blame on me, for the dog... rather, it's simply a reminder to check on self-awareness of my own state.) He's always been a friendly, waggy, social dog - with almost everyone. Freakily enough: it's A - my D - that makes the fur stand up on his back. And he growls when they arrive, instead of the happy, "company's here" bark he saves for everyone else - including UPS and the FedEx lady that brings him treats.

[Hopalong]

Hmmm, that.
I bet my pooch would growl at my D as well (should she ever turn up).
I just sent her a laptop since I'd read on her blog that she needed one.
Should've known better. Furious, nasty texts about me "stalking" etc.
So I am now no longer trying to "keep the door open." She wants
absolutely nothing from me or to do with me, but also texted that
she would be in touch with me when she felt like it. So, there's
that. Once I got over it I realized I am re-calming much quicker.
She couldn't have spelled it out more clearly, so I cancelled the
laptop (I had texted her to watch for the pkg). And I guess I'll
stop paying her cell phone every month too. Been doing that in
cash at the kiosk for two years. But if this person won't call me
and wants nothing, I think that should stop now too.

It's sad because she's unwell, unemployed and needs help.
It's just that she doesn't want it from me. And I accept it.

Anyway, back to pooch.

Encouraging visit from the behaviorist who gave me a lot of
tips and thinks sh'es not inevitably a lost cause. I will work with
her for a month or two to retrain her to look to me for direction
and not be in charge herself, keep her controlled when visitors
come, and reward her for the usual obedience things. She's a
smart little pooch and I think she'd like to be happy so I'm not
giving up yet. She needs lots of new experiences in the world
where she learns most people are good, I will keep her safe, and
going out and interacting is fun. The behaviorist reminded me
that the trauma she's been through may have been extreme.

All in all, given that, I think she's a cupcake. And I am discovering
I can direct and guide her without some faux-ferocious dominant
act, which isn't natural to me. Mostly, cheerfully redirecting her
attention and training her to always look to me for leadership,
seems to be the idea. No nonsense and not anxious does it best.

Wish us luck, it's a happy project. She did great on a challenging
long walk this morning, with scary dogs and strangers running
and a big roaring schoolbus. Just praised her lots and we kept on
going. Now she'll sleep all day long and not be stressed.

Hops