"This is how parents turn their kids into narcissists"--article

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi everyone,

The article can be found at:

http://www.vox.com/2015/3/10/8182937/kids-narcissism

Quite frankly, IMO, the studies cited are of little value because they omit genetic influences.  Genes for narcissism are clearly passed on from parent to child (or not!).  I know many families where some children are narcissistic and some are not--even though they received the same or similar treatment growing up.  In fact what these studies suggest to me is that narcissistic parents (in this case, parents who inflate their children's strengths because it reflects back on themselves) are simply more likely to have narcissistic children mainly for genetic reasons.

What is needed are studies of adopted children, looking at parent's "over-valuing" and measures of children's narcissism.  I suspect the "main-effect" of parental over-valuing (i.e. narcissism in children) would be greatly diminished.

All opinions/responses are welcome!

Richard

[Twoapenny]

Hi everyone,

The article can be found at:

http://www.vox.com/2015/3/10/8182937/kids-narcissism

Quite frankly, IMO, the studies cited are of little value because they omit genetic influences.  Genes for narcissism are clearly passed on from parent to child (or not!).  I know many families where some children are narcissistic and some are not--even though they received the same or similar treatment growing up.  In fact what these studies suggest to me is that narcissistic parents (in this case, parents who inflate their children's strengths because it reflects back on themselves) are simply more likely to have narcissistic children mainly for genetic reasons.

What is needed are studies of adopted children, looking at parent's "over-valuing" and measures of children's narcissism.  I suspect the "main-effect" of parental over-valuing (i.e. narcissism in children) would be greatly diminished.

All opinions/responses are welcome!

Richard

My mum and step dad were both treated appallingly badly by their parents, they certainly weren't over praised or over valued.  Surely there is a big difference between someone with a personality disorder and a child who thinks they're great?

[mudpuppy]

From the link;

"People with high self-esteem think they're as good as others, whereas narcissists think they're better than others," said Brad Bushman, a coauthor of the study.

Is that true?
The Narcissists I've known have projected that to the world but internally seemed to think they were uniquely and fatally flawed; hence the projection; to protect what they view as their hopelessly disfigured personalities.  They also seem to view any peek or insight into that worthless inner self by others an existential threat.
 
mud

[sea storm]

the narcissist's delusion is that he or she is better than everyone else.This is their magical, illogical cloak of protection. This mask is very important to them. Thinking that inside they are shattered is more likely what is going on. Disordered. This is hard wiring cognitively and neurologically.
I made a big mistake thinking that my poor wounded puppy darling naricissist was suffering from low self esteem. Apparently, one of their diabolical strategies is to lure the target by invoking pity.
Their problem is lack of conscience. There may have been a seismic rift in bonding as a baby etc but no one really knows that I don't think. They don't attach.

Maybe the narcissists who aren't too far up the spectrum have self esteem issues.  In some ways narcissism is a sociological disorder brought about by our Crazy culture.

I am probably too bitter to talk reasonably about this.  I think don't give them an inch, stay away, back off, run for the hills.

Sea storm

[sunblue]

Hmmmm.....Interesting but troubling research.  In my humble opinion, I think we are veering into territory where we need to start to provide some serious definitions around narcissism.  This research seems to suggest that "normal" parents today are contributing to narcissism in children by "overpraising" and "overvaluing them".  The study focuses strongly around the concept of self-centeredness and selfishness which is, of course, at the heart of true narcissism.  But it does so without addressing in any detail the behaviors and health of the parents.  Could one or both of the parents in this study be deemed NPD?  Certainly, no parent with NPD that I've ever seen or heard of would ever "overpraise or overvalue" their child.

There's no question that society today is contributing to narcissistic TRAITS in children via social media, parenting and education styles and priorities driven by images of celebrity and fame.  BUT that is far different than the impact of being raised in a truly NPD household.  In those cases, much more than just selfishness and self-centeredness is going on.  The impact is life-long on those children and often involves emotional and/or physical neglect that result in a whole menu of negative results for children as they grow into adulthood.

Research like this and other similar media coverage serves to trivialize NPD.  There's no doubt an increase in narcissistic traits in children can and will lead to negative consequences for them and for our society.  However, NPD is far more serious and a whole other ball of wax.  Narcissism should be better defined and discussed, perhaps, in terms of a "spectrum".  Only then can parents, educators and others truly address the problems effectively  and/or have proactive discussions on what constitutes healthy, appropriate parenting behaviors.

It's time to focus on the "disordered" part of NPD and not just the selfishness characteristics that society seems to be focusing on today which is too easily excused by a focus on social media and changing societal priorities. 

Finally, I'm very familiar with the nature vs. nurture concept of NPD.  In my view, it is only "genetic" in the sense that if a family fails to break the cycle, the narcissistic pattern will continue.  It starts and ends with parenting and the relationship between parent and child.  In order to break the cycle, as a society, we have to start thinking more seriously about NPD.  That means talking intelligently about it in the media, addressing it in terms of a spectrum and NPD types, and, especially, focusing on ways to identify it early on and help children to deal with it (both in adolescence and adulthood).  It's a very difficult disorder to address since those with NPD tend to hide it from the public so well.  Also, there is little discusson of the negative consequences of ongoing NPD--among individuals, families and to society.

Certainly, I've had much difficulty finding therapists who truly understand NPD, let alone how to treat those affected by it.  Superficial studies that focus only on narcissistic traits (and selective ones at that) certainly are not helping matters.

Just my two cents.

[lighter]

It's irritating to see the N word bantered around, with little understanding of what the current definitions of NPDs, and N traits, and Nish, and normal N child developmental phases are in our culture.

When I first heard the word, assigned by a mental health professional to a friend's h during marriage counseling, neither the friend or I understood anything about the word, beyond the mythological story of Narcissist, gazing into a pool.  Thirty years would pass before I heard the word again, and everything I read, heard, and understood about it would prove to be incorrect in my situation.

I see no way for mental health  professionals to correctly dx all co morbid pd's traits, and phases, etc esp in what appears to be less resilient children raised by misguided, or pd parents.  It's disturbing to read this study, and I take issues with children being the identified patient in a family where their behavior is a symptom of how the FOO functions, or doesn't function.

Very frustrating, and confusing, but relevant I think to the discussion I think.
Lighter