Author Topic: Voiceless in the doctor's office  (Read 8168 times)

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Voiceless in the doctor's office
« on: March 21, 2015, 08:40:42 PM »
Hi everybody,

Doctor’s are usually great at treating/acknowledging disorders that fit readily in one of the diagnostic boxes.  However, if you have a disorder that does not neatly fit (and I have one of those in the autoimmune area), sometimes you can be subject to dismissal, anger, insult, and even abuse.

Recently my Primary Care Physician of ten years asked me to come in because my wife had e-mailed him about the pain/discomfort I am in.  I am reluctant, at best, to see doctors, unless I know there is something they can do for me (autoimmune issues that remains unclassified and untreatable.)  I have read 100’s of studies in this area because of my disorder and because I have a stake in a small life science company investigating autoimmune disease treatments.

My PCP asked me about my pain/discomfort, and when I finished telling him he said:  “You are going around looking for sympathy.”  I was shocked, and managed to get out of my mouth:  “Oh, please!”  Apparently, he was responding to the fact that in the past few years I had gotten a second opinion from a rheumatologist and also seen an allergist to rule out that cause of inflammation/nerve damage.  I would have seen neither doctor because I knew the odds of them finding anything I didn’t already know about were almost nil—but my wife had insisted (“You can’t just do your own research/diagnosing…”) and also because I had just developed two new symptoms, Raynaud’s Phenomenon and photosensitivity, that might put me in a diagnostic “box.”

My PCP did his physical exam and when he finished said nothing.  So I asked him gently whether he had seen one of the new areas of inflammation/swelling that I had noted minutes before (insertional Achilles tendinitis).  He got angry.  “Do you want to see my heel?” he said.  (In other words:  You are in no more pain/discomfort than anyone else.)  Then he said I got that symptom from all the trials of quinolones (broad spectrum antibiotics) I had been on.  I didn’t have the heart to tell him:  I had only been on one trial (he prescribed it) that I had stopped after a few weeks because of a small knot developing in my Achilles tendon—but this was years ago and in another part of the tendon.

When we sat down in his office again, in response to my saying that I believe I have an autoimmune disorder, he said “Your CRP level (C-reactive protein--an inflammatory measure) is low."  And then, angrily:  "What do you want me to do?”  He didn’t let me answer.  I would have said:  “Nothing.  You’ve forgotten that you asked to see me today.  I know the treatment options, and am aware that there’s nothing more to be done right now.”  Instead he ordered nerve testing on my dead leg nerves—(IMO, there’s no reason for further testing—they’re dead) and my arm nerves.  Then he dismissed me from the office.

When I was checking out with the receptionist, I saw him briefly in the doorway.  “I’m sorry,” I said.  (LOL, this was my typical childhood response to situations like this…)  He said nothing and waved me off with the flick of a hand.

I’ll stop here for now!

Richard

P.S. Because of my research, I know that autoimmune understanding is in its infancy. This is, unfortunately, part of the issue at hand.  For those in the medical/medical research profession I have a positive ANA and an IGG above the normal range—all else (blood-wise) is in the normal range--my CRP level is on the lower end of normal. Based upon my symptomatology and this blood work, I fit in the UCTD (Undifferentiated Connective Tissue Disease) category—but not in the better-defined connective tissue disease boxes, e.g., Lupus, Sjrogen’s, MCTD, Smith’s, etc.  Interestingly/sadly, my mother had connective tissue issues and died in her mid-60’s of Non-Hodgkins lymphoma.  We know the two are related, but don’t know how/why.

Meh

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Re: Voiceless in the doctor's office
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2015, 09:36:05 PM »
Yikes.

My brother went to 9 doctors before he found one that diagnosed him with Ankylosing spondylitis. It is genetic so there is a blood test that can be done for it which definitely gives a yes or a no. Sad that people have to go through so much dismissal.

I guess it is easier for doctors to say "you are making it up" than it is for them to say "I don't know".
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 09:51:04 PM by Garbanzo »

Hopalong

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Re: Voiceless in the doctor's office
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2015, 10:01:48 PM »
What a horrible encounter.
I devoutly hope that was your last appointment with this physician.

How frustrating for you ... and I am so sorry about the pain you are in.

Pain is a conversation nobody wants to be having with some boor who won't let them get away.

I'm so sorry.

Hops
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ann3

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Re: Voiceless in the doctor's office
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2015, 01:57:54 AM »
Hi Dr. G,

I’m so sorry to hear you are in pain.
I hope you can find a new PCP because this one sounds awful.
Someone I know once said that one should not go to a caregiver if one doesn’t like that caregiver & I agree.  I think it’s important to have a rapport with a doctor.

I think it’s telling that you apologized, like “Gee Doc, I’m sorry I displeased you”, LOL!
You deserve much better and I bet you can find someone better.
I agree that autoimmune is still in it’s infancy, but there are some docs who get it & I hope you find a good one who you like.
Wishing you all the best and relief.

BonesMS

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Re: Voiceless in the doctor's office
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2015, 08:35:44 AM »
YIKES!!!!

It's bad enough to be in chronic physical pain and it's WORSE to be VOICELESS in a doctor's office because the doctor is NOT INTERESTED in LISTENING!!!!!

Back Off Bug-A-Loo!

Twoapenny

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Re: Voiceless in the doctor's office
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2015, 01:53:44 PM »
Wow, Dr G, I'm astonished to read that, I'm so sorry that you went through that with that man, for some reason I'd always assumed that doctors only have it in for certain types of people (in the UK they seem to assume anyone on a low income is stupid and causing and/or imagining their health problems, if you're female you could go in with your head chopped off and they'd still try and put you on anti-depressants).  But it seems there are doctors who are that rude and aggressive whoever you might be.  He sounds awful and very bad at his job.

Personally I think researching your own health and finding things that work for you is a great way to go.  I've done masses of research over the years into my son's health and I find it very empowering, particularly if you are dealing with a health problem for which there is no cure and is something that you just have to find a way to manage day to day.  But I hope that in the course of your research that you come across a better doctor who puts his patients first.

Worn

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Re: Voiceless in the doctor's office
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2015, 04:09:26 PM »
Oh wow!!  That is very familiar and very not cool!  It is, unfortunately, very doctor like behavior but also completely unacceptable.  One of my criteria for keeping a doctor is that they listen to me.  You doc is not only not listening to you, he is putting words in your mouth!  He is making you not only voiceless but has created his own image of who you are.  I would urge you to consider changing pcp's.  They are the center of our personal health care and they need to be good at that job.  Unfortunately, it sounds like yours sucks.  I think it is especially important to have a good pcp when you have chronic health issues.  I also have an autoimmune disease (someday I want to do a survey on how many people who experience voicelessness have autoimmune diseases!), my pcp is fantastic but I had to shop around for him.  I fired my own of ten years and asked around for someone good.  My current pcp listens to me, takes what I say seriously, documents what I say (the importance stuff), and is all around good at his job.  You wouldn't take your car to a mechanic that behaved like your doc did, don't take your body to someone like that either.  You deserve better. 
You live and learn. At any rate you live.  Douglas Adams

lighter

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Re: Voiceless in the doctor's office
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2015, 01:22:26 PM »
Sorry you're struggling, Doc.

Have you done any research into Nutritional Response Testing?  You may get some relief with a different approach, certainly with a different doctor.   

The NRT practitioner I took my children to see was wonderful.  She identified things Western docs never consider... the results were astonishing.

Treating the causes, instead of symptoms, makes a lot of sense.  Hopefully you can get some referrals to doctors willing to listen, and perhaps refer you in the right direction if they don't know what to do.  Doctors shouldn't shame and belittle patients when the doctor is out of his depth.
Lighter

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Voiceless in the doctor's office
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2015, 12:08:47 PM »
Wow!  Thank you Garbanzo, Hops, teartracks, ann3, Bones, Twoapenny, Worn, and Lighter for your kind words of support!  (I have to be careful—I may get used to it and start going around “looking for sympathy …)

There is so much to talk about in this arena. If I may post some thoughts in separate posts on this thread…

Garbanzo:  “I guess it is easier for doctors to say "you are making it up" than it is for them to say "I don't know".”

At least in my neck of the woods (the Harvard Medical School system), many doctors went into the profession and ended up here in small part to help people, but in large part because of the status.  I was naïve enough in my 20’s to believe that the Harvard Medical School system was where the smartest doctors/health professionals in the world were.  What I found was a world dominated by narcissism and politics.  I was told repeatedly while I was on staff and teaching at Mass. General Hospital that I had to play the game.  LOL, my genes would never allow it—my daughter is exactly the same way.  So was my mother (my mother almost did not graduate Barnard College because she refused to meet the silly gym requirement.)  The last time I questioned the dominance of politics over all else, my MGH unit chief said “Welcome to the adult world,” and I said, via subtext:  “Not my adult world.”  I quit—and disappeared (in my work life) to my moldy basement—a tiny space that ultimately became filled with love, attachment, and real people.  (OK, the occasional spider would bow and scrape…)  Who could ask for a better world?!!!

So, you’re right Garbanzo—doctors, in general, and Harvard Medical school doctors in particular have a hard time saying:  “I don’t know.”

Richard

P.S.  One of the benefits of spending my 20’s working/teaching in the MGH/HMS system, of course, is that this Board (and my web site in general), emerged, in large part, from my discovery of what esteemed “adult life” could be like.

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Voiceless in the doctor's office
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2015, 06:25:00 PM »
Hops, ann3, Bones, Twoapenny, and Worn re: finding another doctor/PCP.  Yes, I found another doctor.  I’m not the type of person who absorbs anger/insult and comes back for more.  Of course, I had to write him a letter/e-mail—because I’m also not the kind of person (especially at this age) who would/could just disappear and not say anything.

First, I thanked him for his care over the years.  Then, I pointed out the relevant research.  Next, I told him he was wrong about me personally i.e. his notion that I was the kind of person who went around looking for sympathy.  (Maybe I should have when I was raising 3 teenagers in my 20’s, LOL!)  And finally I concluded with:

“I know the treatment options—there are very few besides NSAID’s (which bring no significant relief).   But certainly, in the future, it would be better to say genuinely to patients such as myself:  ‘I know your quality of life is diminished, and I wish there were something I could do to help, but unfortunately, there isn’t.’  Such a statement is the polar opposite of anger and insult.”

Of course all of the above has much to do with the personality of the particular doctor.  I won’t say more, because I have no interest in revealing who he is.  But there’s one more overarching issue:  The lives of doctors have changed/are changing dramatically because of the need to reduce costs and the reduced income.  From the provider end, dealing with insurance companies is often a nightmare.   And I know from my doctor patients, that many doctors now regret their career choice and would never recommend such a choice to their children.  I worry that some of the anger this generates will be directed (particularly by power/status conscious doctors) towards patients who do not improve as a result of treatment.   There certainly are many of us out there…

Richard

Worn

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Re: Voiceless in the doctor's office
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2015, 07:01:07 PM »
Excellent way to answer him.  And good point about the changing environment of medicine.  I have no doubt the environment my previous Dr was in contributed to their behavior.  She was burnt out.  I really wish, and it's not too late (it's been a little over 2 years but I was a patient for 10) that I had sent my doc a letter when I left.  Your post made me think of several reasons why:

1.  Maybe they would learn from it and it might help when they're interacting with their next patient.  Someone in a similar position to mine.  I bet they rarely if ever get feedback from patients about how their ways of interacting with people are toxic.  Of course they may take my feedback and shove it but that brings me to...

2.  I would at least get to have my say.  I could give a voice to how I wanted to respond to the situation.  Not pressured by time.  Able to really think over my response.  Instead of trying to react in an emotion filled situation.  I would have time to think thoroughly about why this crossed boundaries and was not an acceptable way to treat me. 

3. I have a relationship with this doctor.  After ten years of her for the most part being a great doctor, I owe her an explanation of why I'm leaving.  She's a good person, she's just not the right person to be my doctor.


I have an appointment with my current pcp tomorrow.  We've talked about how when I tell him how I'm doing I know there's probably not much he can do about it, but I want him to document it anyway.  I may bring up a version of what you said here, that it's OK for doctors to say the following:

"‘I know your quality of life is diminished, and I wish there were something I could do to help, but unfortunately, there isn’t.’  Such a statement is the polar opposite of anger and insult.”"

I think that statement may make some doctors very uncomfortable.  They've put in all these years of study and they don't have anything they can do for someone.  They want to help, that's why they're there, but they're helpless.  That can be hard to handle when you're the guy that's supposed to have all the answers. 



You live and learn. At any rate you live.  Douglas Adams

ann3

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Re: Voiceless in the doctor's office
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2015, 09:41:40 PM »
Dr. G,

I am so sorry to hear you are suffering.  You've done so much good for others, so it saddens me even more.  Maybe try alternative therapies, like acupuncture?
You are such a Gentleman for writing the PCP such a reasonable, rational note.  It's his loss & your gain.  I hope you find a caregiver who's really wonderful and who will help you to feel better.  And, if ya need some sympathy & some atta boys, why not post here?  I think you're pretty well loved here.

I know I'm crossing threads, but this is beautifully written &, IMO, worthy of a (your?) book; if you want, maybe just change some names.  I like the narrator's voice:
Quote
At least in my neck of the woods (the Harvard Medical School system), many doctors went into the profession and ended up here in small part to help people, but in large part because of the status.  I was naïve enough in my 20’s to believe that the Harvard Medical School system was where the smartest doctors/health professionals in the world were.  What I found was a world dominated by narcissism and politics.  I was told repeatedly while I was on staff and teaching at Mass. General Hospital that I had to play the game.  LOL, my genes would never allow it—my daughter is exactly the same way.  So was my mother (my mother almost did not graduate Barnard College because she refused to meet the silly gym requirement.)  The last time I questioned the dominance of politics over all else, my MGH unit chief said “Welcome to the adult world,” and I said, via subtext:  “Not my adult world.”  I quit—and disappeared (in my work life) to my moldy basement—a tiny space that ultimately became filled with love, attachment, and real people.  (OK, the occasional spider would bow and scrape…)  Who could ask for a better world?!!!
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 10:00:45 PM by ann3 »

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Voiceless in the doctor's office
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2015, 11:22:19 PM »
Teartracks:  “Makes me recall your play "Room With Maintenance", Dr. G. “

In your next career, teartracks, if you’re not doing it already, you could be a literature professor!  Yes, that is a play about me and what I have been through, pain-wise, the past decade plus all the concurrent maintenance I’ve had to do on an 1895 2-family Victorian.  The carpenter wasn’t based on my internist/PCP, however—the character was modeled, in part, on a surgeon who enthusiastically recommended cutting out a part of me, telling me I’d feel much better.

This winter, with record-breaking snow, ice dams, leaks throughout the house, doors that were frozen shut, 9 foot piles of shoveled snow in our front yard, etc., etc., I prayed every day for Angelo the Maintenance Man to appear.  Sadly, he never came. I was in a “room without maintenance”—and I can tell you flat out, it was Hell!

(For those who have no idea what we're talking about, the play can be found here:  https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/217274)

Richard
« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 07:41:01 PM by Dr. Richard Grossman »

Hopalong

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Re: Voiceless in the doctor's office
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2015, 12:34:48 AM »
Haven't much useful to add, Doc G, except that mold isn't good for you, especially if you have compromised health.
Hope you can have it well abated and then run a dehumidifier 24/7 to keep it from coming back...

Healthfully hopefully,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Voiceless in the doctor's office
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2015, 04:08:23 PM »
lighter:  “Have you done any research into Nutritional Response Testing?”

Thanks, lighter!  I haven’t, but I’ll look into it.  The problem I have with many of the nutritional (e.g. gluten-free diet) and other non-medical solutions is that when I ask practitioners whether they have had success with people who have significant autoimmune issues, typically they scratch their heads and say either, “I don’t know,” or, “it doesn’t matter.”  Given those responses, while I’m sure they can help some people, given the nature/source of my problem, I doubt that they can help me.

BTW, I have tremendous respect for two of the practitioners I saw, one, an acupuncturist and the second, a physical therapist.  When they did their exams/tests and I told them the nature/extent of the problem(s), both immediately said they were sorry but they couldn’t help me.  I so appreciated their honesty.

Hops:  "Haven't much useful to add, Doc G, except that mold isn't good for you, especially if you have compromised health.
Hope you can have it well abated and then run a dehumidifier 24/7 to keep it from coming back..."

Thanks, Hops!  I've told this story of true love before here, but I'll repeat it because it's something I'll remember 'til the day I die.  When my daughter was 4 (?), one day I came up from my office and Hildy (my wife) said:  "You smell like mold."  Before I could respond my daughter said:  "I like the smell of mold--it smells like Dad." 

Richard
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 04:29:34 PM by Dr. Richard Grossman »