Dear Friends, I'd just like your input on how I'm feeling.

[Twoapenny]

I am just feeling like I want nothing to do with old friends.  I find myself thinking of my life as before and after counselling.  Friends after counselling I want, friends from before I don't.  A male friend, who has helped me out enormously in the past, is in a bit of a difficult situation at the moment.  I have offered to help but am secretly relived that he hasn't taken me up on my offer.  I feel terrible for feeling that way as he's helped me out in the past.

I find myself doing this sort of balance sheet to justify to myself why this isn't a 'proper' friendship and I hate myself doing it, but I'm wondering if the bottom line is I just don't want to see him anymore but I can't just admit that?  I find I'm comparing how much time he spends with friends to how much he spends with me, criticisising (in my head) the situation he's in and blaming him for it, he wants to come over next week and I find I'm making excuses not to see him.

Aargh!  I feel bad not wanting to see someone who hasn't done anything to warrant that, especially as he got me through a really tough time.  But at the same time I feel like a really brand new phase is approaching in my life and I almost feel that if I take anyone I knew before with me it will sort of damage things now.  I know that sounds silly but it sort of scares me?

I don't feel like a very nice person right now.  I feel mean and selfish and like I'm always moaning no-one wants to see me and then when someone does I'm looking for a way to wriggle out of it.

I trust your insights and always learn something when I come on here so if anyone has any thoughts about anything I'd be very glad to read them.

[sunblue]

Hi Twopenny:

Sometimes, we need to go through an editing phase, carefully pruning people and things out of our lives which no longer work or support us.  There is nothing wrong in that.  But I would make sure that the people in your life "pre-counseling" truly are no longer contributing or adding value to your life.  Just because you formed those relationships during a time when you felt you were not in a good place doesn't necessarily mean those people didn't--and don't--have value for you.

If your old friendships no longer work for you, you have the option of removing them from your life.  But i would caution against completely removing them.  Perhaps those relationships simply need to evolve and change.  Do you feel like you still share common interests and values with them?  Do you enjoy spending time with them?  Are they there to support you during this new phase of your life?  If the answer is "no", perhaps it is time to gently move on from them....but perhaps still maintain some connection.  Whatever your choice, there is no need to feel guilty or feel like you "owe" them a continued relationship.  From my experience, though, good friends are hard to come by....and not every friend can meet all the needs you need.  Perhaps these old friends still fill some need for you?  If so, maintain a relationship with them but don't expect to understand everything you have gone through or meet all of your current needs. 

Either way, it sounds you are in a good place and how lucky you are to have such a network of friends--past and present!  Enjoy these relationships.  Value your friendships and, if necessary, redefine your vision of friendship.

[Hopalong]

Tupp dear, my hunch is that you are forestalling any unexpected grief you may feel as the old street disappears into the rear-view mirror and you move to your new location without forwarding address.

Maybe you're amputating all of them.

Maybe it's prophylactic...a sort of "I'll create this loss and leaving and letting hope for connectedness go all in one series of cuts...so the Big Cut won't affect me."

Moving is very hard EVEN WHEN it's for positive reason and even when IT WILL turn out all right.

The pysche just doesn't like it; the psyche's not rational and doesn't care about maths or grades or reasoning or pros and cons. So "reviewing and discarding" might be partly getting your psyche ready for the great big shift.

A hunch is only a hunch, though...what do YOU think?

Be kind to yourself. You're not perfect. As intensely as you puzzle and struggle about relationships, you still won't ever be perfect. And you're just fine. You're a fine human being.

Hugs,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

And perhaps just answer one question... do you still LIKE this person?

It almost sounds as if you're afraid the past relationship will continue to define the present and even hold you back from moving into a new phase, unless you jettison this guy. Like Hops said, that psyche thinks/believes all kinds of things. Boundaries are OK to have with friends too and maybe they even help nurture the friendships.

But I'm also hearing you weighing the transactional side of the relationship; as if you're trying to skip out on a debt you owe this guy. As if that's how relationships work - and the ONLY way they work. I know I've had that model in my head and it's been stronger at some times more than others. And I think that's part of what we learned about relationships through our "primary relationship"... the mom thing. That the only way you could have value in a relationship is how much you give & take within it... instead of just "being" and enjoying each other. Sometimes one person does give more than the other person can return... for a long time.

Sigh. These are always hard questions - whether it's something I'm figuring out for myself or trying to advise someone else on. Sometimes it's essential to look at the balance sheet of a relationship... and other times, it's not the most useful way. At the center of my dilemmas over that is whether or not I'm acknowledging my own need for human connection, my value to myself (which helps pick the right level and kind of boundary with the other person) and my own preferences. Yeah, that's awfully analytical when what we want most from a relationship is that feeling of togetherness in this mess we call life... someone to laugh with... someone to walk with through the slow peaceful happy days, and the storms that blow through, too.

This is one of those times you just have to trust yourself, Tupps. Trust your gut/intuition... and let the chips fall where they may... because you're in the process of doing something really important for you and your son. There may be casualties, but it's not your job to do anything more than insure your OWN survival.

[Twoapenny]

Thank you all so much, you are always so wise and patient and what I really love is that you always 'get' what I'm getting at, even though I don't understand it myself sometimes!  I've also chatted to a good friend this morning - one I am clear about! and she's had/is having similar situations to this so talking it through with her has helped as well.

Skep - to answer your question first, I do like him and sometimes enjoy his company.  There is a bit of history between us and at one time I was very much in love with him.  We'd dated a couple of times before that, once in our teens and then again in our late twenties/early thirties.  The second time meant a lot to me, he ended it and I was heartbroken but we stayed in contact as friends.  I'd decided I was going to tell him how I still loved him and just go for it with him and, as so often happens in these situations, the weekend I decided I wanted to declare all was the same weekend he told me all about this fantastic woman he'd met, who he then went on to have a ten year relationship and a baby with.  Needless to say I kept quiet and never told him what I felt then, and as time went on those feelings went away and we went back to just friends (or should I say I did, he'd always been in the friends place).  So I do like him, equally I've been on a bit of a roller coaster with him over the years and I do very much feel like I owe him, even though he hasn't made me feel that way.  I do find it hard to just be and enjoy things, perhaps that is the next thing I have to work on?  Never happy, I moan if people don't help and then if they do I feel beholden to them forever   I will need to ponder on this some more, I think.  Thank you.

Hops, thank you, you might be right.  Sometimes it feels like more work - too much work - to keep up some slightly fractured and changing relationships rather then just dumping them all in the bin - bit like patching and re-patching clothes, sometimes it just feels like too much effort.  I'm not really sure how I feel at the moment, very muddled, sometimes strong and 'I don't need anybody' and other times the complete opposite.  I will keep thinking things through; I'm not in action mode yet so I can work through some stuff and not upset anybody (including myself!) by just thinking rather than acting for now.

Sun, thank you.  If I'm honest, I think there are three who, if I just said exactly how I feel, that yes, I do like and would like to spend time with and have contact with.  What I find hard is that where I live now everyone knows everybody else and all these friends know each other and socialise together, so for me cutting ties with some but not others feels difficult and wrong.  Perhaps that is something I need to think a bit more about.  I sort of feel pressured sometimes into seeing people I don't want to because of the gossip that goes on so I think I might need to work on that a bit.

Thank you all for your thoughts, I will keep on thinking things through and hopefully it will all become a bit clearer in the not too distant future! x

[ann3]

Hi Tupp,

I like what everyone said and here's my take:

The second time meant a lot to me, he ended it and I was heartbroken but we stayed in contact as friends.  I'd decided I was going to tell him how I still loved him and just go for it with him and, as so often happens in these situations, the weekend I decided I wanted to declare all was the same weekend he told me all about this fantastic woman he'd met, who he then went on to have a ten year relationship and a baby with.  Needless to say I kept quiet and never told him what I felt then, and as time went on those feelings went away and we went back to just friends (or should I say I did, he'd always been in the friends place.)

Wow, that must have felt like a punch in the gut!  So, I totally understand why you feel like you want to leave this relationship behind, whether temporarily or permanently.  IMO, that is a lot to deal with.  Doesn't mean either you or he was wrong, but rather that the relationship didn't work out the way YOU wanted it to work out. So, I can understand why you feel relieved that he hasn't taken you up on your offer. Yes, I can understand why you don't want to bring this into your new life.

Tupp, please forgive me if I'm being too forward, but I think that you're putting yourself down quite a bit in your posts on this thread.  You're beating yourself up. No one is perfect. I bet you've done the best you could with this chap, so please give yourself a break.  You're starting a new life, so maybe something to leave behind is being so hard on yourself?  I think you're a good person and there's a lot to celebrate about YOU: your perseverance, dedication, sincerity, etc, etc.

I do find it hard to just be and enjoy things, perhaps that is the next thing I have to work on?

Yes, perhaps some Joie de Vivre?

Anyway, I really agree with this:

This is one of those times you just have to trust yourself, Tupps. Trust your gut/intuition... and let the chips fall where they may... because you're in the process of doing something really important for you and your son. There may be casualties, but it's not your job to do anything more than insure your OWN survival.

[Twoapenny]

Hi Tupp,

I like what everyone said and here's my take:

The second time meant a lot to me, he ended it and I was heartbroken but we stayed in contact as friends.  I'd decided I was going to tell him how I still loved him and just go for it with him and, as so often happens in these situations, the weekend I decided I wanted to declare all was the same weekend he told me all about this fantastic woman he'd met, who he then went on to have a ten year relationship and a baby with.  Needless to say I kept quiet and never told him what I felt then, and as time went on those feelings went away and we went back to just friends (or should I say I did, he'd always been in the friends place.)

Wow, that must have felt like a punch in the gut!  So, I totally understand why you feel like you want to leave this relationship behind, whether temporarily or permanently.  IMO, that is a lot to deal with.  Doesn't mean either you or he was wrong, but rather that the relationship didn't work out the way YOU wanted it to work out. So, I can understand why you feel relieved that he hasn't taken you up on your offer. Yes, I can understand why you don't want to bring this into your new life.

Tupp, please forgive me if I'm being too forward, but you really put yourself down quite a bit in your posts on this thread.  You're beating yourself up. No one is perfect. I bet you've done the best you could with this chap, so please give yourself a break.  You're starting a new life, so maybe something to leave behind is being so hard on yourself?  I think you're a good person and there's a lot to celebrate about YOU: your perseverance, dedication, sincerity, etc, etc.

I do find it hard to just be and enjoy things, perhaps that is the next thing I have to work on?

Yes, perhaps some Joie de Vivre?

Anyway, I really agree with this:

This is one of those times you just have to trust yourself, Tupps. Trust your gut/intuition... and let the chips fall where they may... because you're in the process of doing something really important for you and your son. There may be casualties, but it's not your job to do anything more than insure your OWN survival.

Hi Ann, and thank you so much for your kind words.  Something you said made me laugh as well, because I've been beating myself up over ........................ the fact that I beat myself up a lot   Lol, I didn't realise until I read what you said (not too forward at all, I really appreciate people's honesty and candour on here) that I do it so much and then I was giving myself a hard time over the fact I give myself a hard time.  What a doughnut.  Anyway, work on beating myself up less and having a big more fun, I think they are the two current topics to work on

I have given it all a lot more thought and trying to weigh up my feelings and I think living here is a big problem.  I have to put a lot of energy into coping with living here, far more than is healthy, and a lot of the time I just hide away in my house because I can't face bumping into certain people.  I know I've said this before but there are bad memories on every corner and the endless gossip and tittle tattle means that my mum always finds out what we're doing, and people take great delight sometimes in telling me they've seen my mum and all the horrible things she's said about me.  So I have decided not to postpone our move - it will mean things are a big higgledy piggeldy for a while because the medical people will have to transfer my son's case to a different hospital (this never seems to go smoothly, for some reason), or we'll have to travel a lot to get up to the old one but I have decided I'd rather cope with some fresh 'challenges' than keep having to cope with living here and having to do ridiculous things like go to the supermarket late in the evening so that I don't bump into people I don't want to see.  So the move is back in the here and now, I'm going to really focus on that, try not to think too much about people, stick to my original plan of not telling a soul where we're going or when and after we've moved and the dust has settled I'll see how I feel; if there are people I want to get in touch with, I will, if I'm finding life lovely without them then so be it.

Feeling much better about the situation now, thank you all so much for your help, as always.  Will keep you posted with how things are going xx

[sKePTiKal]

One more thing I've learned, that might help.

WE are allowed to not like people - even when they've done nothing we can tally up on that balance sheet to us - but because that idea is uncomfortabe (that we also have that power)... there's usually some contortion of ourselves in the thought process to find some graceful way out. There isn't. It has to be what it is. Then, there doesn't have to be avoidance later on. Hang to to mutual respect for being different; on different paths... and part company.

There's this silly idea current today, that some utopian society exists where we're all well-intentioned, working on ourselves, and have the right values... that we'll all be friends and friendly with everyone. Sounds like a myth to me; or a book for toddlers. Sounds like people pushing the idea that all relationships are meant to be parent-child, and we just take turns. The best relationships rise to a more grown-up level (and yes, I'm still figuring that one out... probably always will be).

[lighter]

Hey Tupp:

Maybe this a reminder of times you've outgrown?

Maybe the relationship reminds you of things you're ready to leave behind?  You used to be in love with the guy, but you've grown so much.  You aren't that same young girl anymore.

He's helped you through some terrible times you deserve to finally feel free of.  It's not necessarily him, kwim?  It can just be leaving behind old traumas, and moving into a new space where you truly get to start over.  Where no one knows your history... unless you tell them.

It doesn't even have to make specific sense?  Just that it feels heavy.... like something you need to put down..... is enough.

Validate yourself.  Trust yourself.

I think making a clean break sounds refreshing, and open, and hopeful.

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

Thank you all, you have given me a lot more to think about and I am trying to break things down a bit in my mind.

I've been focusing on my 'good' friendships.  I am very lucky to have three very, very good friends who I'm in regular contact with (for me it doesn't have to be frequent, or face to face, but enough that I know what's going on in their life and they know what's going on in mine).  They are people who get me, we have some similar interests and some different ones, broadly speaking our political/social views are similar, they have supported me through tough times (and I them) and equally had some wild and crazy times with.  They're the people I enjoy being with wherever we are or whatever we're doing, it doesn't matter if we're sitting in the car with a flask of coffee or having a grand day out, I just love being with them.  Any one of them could phone me at 3 in the morning and say "I'm 200 miles away, could you come and get me?" and I'd go.

Then I've got three other friends who I like and get on with but don't feel as close to for various reasons; I enjoy their company and like to see them but I wouldn't move heaven and earth to do it and if they wanted a 3am pick up I would be asking what the situation was - doesn't mean I wouldn't do it if they were in a bind but I'd want to know what was going on first.

Then I've a smattering of people who I like and see from time to time but I would probably consider them acquaintances rather than friends, if that makes sense?

And then I have this big group of people from my past, people who I know and have been good friends with at other times in my life but in all honesty I feel that the good friendship has been mostly on my part - not to say none of them have ever done me a favour but I do feel that in the last ten years (which has been the difficult period with my son's situation) none of them has particularly stood out as even making much effort to keep in contact, let alone doing anything else.  One part of me - gut reaction, I suppose - is just thinking jettison the lot, and I do think that deep down that's what I want to do.  But at the same time it feels very wrong and I suppose that's where I'm stuck, sometimes feeling something is wrong is a warning that I'm going to hurt myself (by losing friendships), sometimes thinking something's wrong is old programming that I want to be rid of.  And I'm starting to wonder if that's why I keep doing a sort of balance sheet, to try and make a logical decision because I'm not sure I can trust my instincts at the moment?  Ie, I called her four times, she only called me once, I can cross her off the list, he did me a favour once but I've done him two so I don't owe him anymore, that sort of thing?  I'm not sure, will keep pondering, sometimes I find once I've realised I don't really know the answer does sort of appear then so maybe it will get clearer.  I am certain that I'm not telling anyone where I'm moving, or telling anyone we're going until the day we go, plus I'll be changing my mobile number on the day as well, and with that in my head I'm not even sure why I'm worrying about it all now, it just seems to be making me feel bad for some reason.

[Twoapenny]

Twoapenny,

That third group - sounds like your association with them has been one of serially jettisoning them or vice versa.  Why not let them do this final jettison.  Let them drift away on their own.  I understand that you are sorting and assessing your friendships now for quality and I think that is necessary from time to time in a lifetime.  It sounds like your dilemma with them at the moment is more or less just acknowledging that, "Yes, I want these associations to end, I will allow them to end themselves.  This requires nothing of me except to acknowledge that this is the end.  They will do the rest simply by exercising their old behavior which is pretty much to do nothing, right?"  Try saying that to yourself, that way you've put a formal ending to it in your mind and heart.  It's a done deal.  No looking back. 

TT, you are absolutely right, and do you know what I realised today, when I was a kid I was desperate to be part of 'the crowd' but I never quite made it, there's this big group of people here (where I live now is where I grew up as a kid which is why I know so many people around here) and they kind of let me join in but I wasn't anyone's best friend and I never really fitted in.  And I was thinking today that that's the way I feel now, like I'm still not part of the crowd, I'm still not included, I'm still only allowed to join in on their terms.  And I thought, that was thirty bleeping years ago, can this really still be bothering me?  But I think it was, I think somewhere in there teenage Tup was still waiting to be allowed to join the party.  So I think it is very much time for middle aged Tup to create her own party and invite her own guests   Had a real burst of energy today, stripped the sitting room ready to decorate, all but two small files of the paperwork mountain are sorted and I've got a van load of stuff to drop off at the charity shop tomorrow.  I felt excitement flutter in my belly today and it's been a long time since that happened

[Hopalong]

OH that's wonderful, Tupp.
I'm too weary (just adapting to the new FT job) to say much except that I get it.

And what's even more exciting is to read again and again how YOU get it.

I'm delighted for you...your self-liberation.
It's joyful to read about.

hugs,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

OH that's wonderful, Tupp.
I'm too weary (just adapting to the new FT job) to say much except that I get it.

And what's even more exciting is to read again and again how YOU get it.

I'm delighted for you...your self-liberation.
It's joyful to read about.

hugs,
Hops

Oh wow Hops have you started the new job?  How is it?  I'm hoping fabulous  

I am starting to get things, although once I get them they seem so obvious I wonder how I didn't see them before.  But I suppose those barriers and defence mechanisms are there for a reason and it's only when they come down that you can start to see more clearly.  I'm hoping once things have settled you can tell us all about the new job xx

[lighter]

Tupp:


I'm wondering what a Tupp party, with new guests, will look like.

What do you see for yourself in a year?  Two years?

I think sometimes that I'd like to have a small group of friends who take turns cooking together, and enjoying fellowship, food, normal regular interaction. 

::nodding::

But then it feels daunting.  I'm introverted.  It takes a lot of energy.  As I look back my life usually was about me popping into other people's lives.... and being able to pop out when it suited.  Sure, there would be things at my house, usually large holiday gatherings, help with large yard projects, but I'm basically a solitary creature, bc it suits me. 

I have to remember that, esp when I feel like I should be doing more socially. 

So, as I picture what I want, I remember the reality of having a busy social life..... I remember that balance, and alone time need to be budgeted as a priority.  That doing doing doing isn't the solution.  Making very wise choices, and limiting interaction is just as important as cultivating the right relationships.  That what we say NO to is as important as what we say YES to, IME.  Saying NO is necessary or we have no room for saying YES to better things.  Knowing that we're making choices, should be making choices, and not feeling guilty or bad about it is important, IMO.

I've just lost 3 of my best friends in the past 2 years.  I feel that emptiness, but I'm very careful about what I replace it with.  I have requests for adult playdates, and I notice I'm not accepting many.  That makes it easier to breath when the SHOULD monster starts hammering me.  SInce my youngest dd13 asked me if I'm lonely the other night... .since she asked if I have any friends, knowing I sort of don't right now.... I lost my 3 best friends in the last 2 years for Pete's sake..... the urge to panic, and feel lacking/less than/like I should should should... it came up very powerfully for me, but I calmed very quickly, and reminded us both that I could have more social interaction.  There's nothing to be gained by letting negative fear demons take me places I don't need to go, bc I don't have to DO anything.   I SHOULD take this time and  just breath in the open space, and not look at the space as empty or negative..... something that has to be filled filled filled, bc it doesn't mean I'm unworthy/outcast/left out/lacking. 

It's space that's ready to be filled, and I get to choose who I'll invite in.  That's a better way of seeing the emptiness... ::nodding::.

 Hmmmm... emptiness.  Is that the wrong word?  It's maybe just space, and it's clear space I need to see as obligation free?  It really is a shift in the way we interpret the space, right?

I remember having a garden I worked in happily on my own.... a pretty large one.  I remember happily planting things, and not feeling I should be doing anything else with that time.  I think it's part of my solution.  Getting to a place that feels right..... obligation free.  It's surprisingly difficult.... not sure why.  I like to remind myself I had that once, and I can have that again.  GUILT sucks. 

I think you're in the same boat, maybe?

Wow, what a ramble.  Sorry.

So.... Who will Tupp invite, and what will her parties look like?

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

Hi Lighter,

I found myself nodding all the way through your post, I can understand so clearly where you are coming from.  And I'm so sorry you lost three close friends in that way, I hadn't realised you'd been through that on top of that awful court case.  I am not the slightest bit suprised that you feel the need for some quiet time.  I think those sort of extreme emotional situations often call for plenty off outdoor, getting on with it type stuff.  We know when it's time to start interacting with the world again.

For me, I think it's quality rather than quantity.  I've found as I'm getting older I'm quite content to potter about at home over the weekends, the thought of heading out and battling through crowds of people does nothing for me.  I've also found that I like life better if I'm well organised; if the laundry's done, the house is tidy, the bills are paid and the meals are in the fridge ready to cook.  So I don't feel the need to be out and about a lot and I don't feel I want lots and lots of people in my life.  What I do want are some really good, loving connections, with people I find interesting, inspiring, loving, warm hearted, funny.  I get on best with very strong women, I find, ones who've been through tough times and come out of it more compassionate and understanding, rather than people who've been through something tough and now feel everyone else should suffer as much as they did.  I'd rather have an hour with a really good friend than back to back coffees with people who are just filling time.

I've been thinking a lot about my hopes and dreams I used to have as a kid, when I used to sit in my room with my books and imagine my life in the future.  I used to love drama and music; I was good at both and wanted to take that further.  I always had dreams to write as well.  And then life got in the way and it all became about paying the rent and tackling my drink problem and then looking after my boy and then dealing with my mum and my dreams all just vanished and I kind of forgot about them.

We've got our little van now and what I'd like to do is start doing story telling workshops at festivals.  I'd love to try some performance poetry, have a go at writing ghost stories, start making costumes and learning about stage make up.  My son loves stories so I'm hoping to involve him in this.  I'd like to get back into music.  When I was younger I played guitar, piano, clarinet and saxophone.  I won a scholarship to study music at school; I scored the highest result ever in the entrance exam and my mum never batted an eyelid about it.  And I never really carried it all on, I carried on playing sax for a few years after leaving school but I just didn't mix in the sort of circles where people where musical and creative, I was mostly mixing with drunks and drug addicts and so I lost it all.  But I'd like to try and get back into it a bit now, even just to strum a bit on the guitar and make up some silly songs to play for kids.  And then I'd love to travel, as far and wide as possible with my boy, and write about our adventures - middle aged crazy lady and learning disabled lad trekking the world in a campervan.  I just feel that I'd at least like to give it a try and see how much I can do.  I feel like for all of that I need to be around go getter people, people who'll encourage rather than the ones who'll think of all the negatives and have a long list of what might go wrong.  So I'm hoping the move will be a step towards that.  I just want some meaningful connections from time to time; if one more person says "Have you got a boyfriend yet?" I think I'll slap them

I think here's to solitude, finding ourselves, being happy spending time alone but being lucky enough to know a few similar people who we can enjoy sharing time with but who also like their solitude, perhaps, so understand when it's time to say goodnight?  Mmmm.  Dreaming of good things for all of us x