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Facebook post by Micaela (my daughter) on the day after the election

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sKePTiKal:
I had one of those brain fart ideas pop into my head the more I thought about the idea: "The personal is political". Or maybe, it's more correct to say Twiggy pointed out something that should've been obvious about it.

It's akin to saying that a machine is a gear; or that a fish is a rhinocerous. Apples and oranges. And parts are not equal to the sum of the parts. A process or method is not the same as an entity, or person.

And the reason is because of BOUNDARIES and subordination. There are a whole lot of things that are blurred, merged, and smooshed into that slogan...in un-natural ways.

Just like a person isn't identical to what they do as an occupation, my personal experience, being, and life is not; can NOT be political. Politics requires a group - even as small as 2 - to even exist. (Barring the occasional person who's schizophrenic or has multiple personalities, of course.)

Politics is a system of "persons" who agree and consent to a set of rules governing their behavior in the acts of cooperating, working together, being in a group for a PURPOSE... usually defined as well-being, success, or "security". And here is the first boundary... there is the group, the system, and a person.

I think we can all agree that behavior is separate and subordinate to the person-entity. There is a boundary between them. The person IS - and can be many things without interfering or constraining another person. It is what a person DOES - behavior - that impacts, for good or ill, the other persons around them. I can control my behavior - sometimes temporarily, definitely by choice and intent - or NOT. I often choose not to smoke around people, for instance. I can control that behavior and therefore it is subordinate to my "being"... and there is a boundary between my being and that behavior.

So, I'm thinking politics is subordinate to, and separate from... the personal. And like my choice of controlling my behavior - it's fluid and sometimes situationally conditional. Sometimes, because it's always wrong for me to tell another person how to BE. And often, it's none of my business and doesn't impact me at all, how other people behave. Sometimes it DOES, and then it is my business and I have a choice then, about how to behave... and I need intelligent and wise boundaries to protect myself without harming others.

Politics are the mutually accepted definitions/process of regulating behavior among and between groups of people. A group may be said to have a "being"... but each person within the group has their own distinct and separate "being"... therefore a boundary.

That's probably enough of the foundation of the thought-process that plopped a pile of turkey-poop on my head, for you all to think about this on your own. You can see where I'm going with this. And maybe the analogy falls apart further on down the merry little thought-exercise path.

But Twiggy wouldn't let it rest; she tortured me with that "the personal is political/the political is the personal" crap until I started to get it. There is something in it, that's very much akin to an N saying: you're not, never gonna be "good enough"... all because you aren't exactly as the N wants you to be, when they want you to be. There is a very natural and OBVIOUS boundary between the self and what a person IS and what some other person thinks you "ought" to be. (Behavior aside for this bit, although it's not irrelevant here. An N will often confuse and conflate "being" and "behavior in others.)

Maybe I'm overthinking again.

mudpuppy:
Sea,
I'm not particularly brilliant and I'm not particularly angry.

My dander only gets up when people go from saying "I disagree with your views" to "your views make you _____". Fill in the blank with any of the vile epithets that are routinely assigned to anyone that doesn't toe the party line these days; racist, homophobe, Islamophobe, misogynist, greedy, sexist, ageist, genderist, transphobe, Nazi, fascist .
A person routinely accused of being those things would have to be a saint NOT to get angry. They are dismissive, devaluing, false and inflammatory. That in fact is their purpose. To inflame, not debate. They are designed specifically to falsely accuse someone and enrage them. In my humble opinion you might more profitably direct your concern to those who employ them.

 This thread started off with the good Doc's daughter essentially accusing me of being a participant in a sexual assault on her person. That kind of rhetoric generates heat not light and so I repeat, I don't think politics is an optimal subject for a board discussing the personal, almost exclusively apolitical pain of being raised by or otherwise attached to Narcissists. Obviously anyone can talk about whatever they want, subject to Doc's admin superpowers, but it seems a cross purpose here.
  It especially seems so if to avoid a conflict some are allowed to voice risible claims regarding others and those others are expected to remain Voiceless or be told how scary and angry they are when they're accused of metaphorical sexual assault and other vile things and they respond accordingly. That cycle and dynamic seems awfully reminiscent of what many of us have been through and why we came here in the first place.
I didn't come to this board to jump out of the frying pan into the fire.

mud

JustKathy:

--- Quote ---but much as I have always respected you, I feel intimidated and nearly silenced by your tone.
--- End quote ---

I've been reading through this thread, not replying, but am finally going to jump in and says yes, I agree with Hops. Someone decided to stir the pot on this thread, left, then returned a few weeks later to revisit it and continue their bullying. And yes, it IS bullying. I'm not comfortable with it, I feel intimidated, and am choosing not to engage in future conversation with this person. That is all.

Kathy

mudpuppy:
Too funny.
This thread began with the accusation I, and people like me, metaphorically sexually assaulted the Doc's daughter and that we are all also, of course, abusers.
I was told I knowingly voted for a racist, misogynist, raping pig and my vote was one which had the KKK dancing in the streets. I was informed if I didn't vote for Trump because he is so obviously a racist bigot it is only because I'm so stupid and uninformed. It was implied that while Trump is not yet a Nazi he is a proto-fascist who is just getting started. I apparently bathe in "fear and ignorance" every evening and powder my behind afterward with "white privilege".

I noted that kind of rhetoric was not justified by anything Trump had actually done in his life, did not lead to reasonable discussions but food fights, was unfair and unkind to the millions of very well informed voters who hate no one and simply disagree with people throwing the epithets and calumnies at them in place of reasonable debate and I noted people who throw stones shouldn't be surprised, if, when some of those stones hit others in the head, that they might want to have a heartfelt word or two with you.

After all the, what I can only describe as, defamations, and my tentative first efforts to get people to dial the rhetoric back a bit and my defense of my positions and criticism of others positions, I'M the one accused of bullying. That's what's too funny.

 In reskimming my comments the worst thing that I saw was the claim that the left "checked their brains" when ignoring the catastrophe their policies have wrought in black neighborhoods. That doesn't even rise to the level of an insult compared to the stuff lobbed my way and people like me.
I note it was only after I made prolonged defenses of my position and people started saying "oh it's too hard to argue with you" that the bullying meme arose.
Starting a conversation with libelous insults and then crying "bully" when you can't defend your position seems to me to be the actual bullying.

I've been here a long time and it did me a lot of good, but the fact is this election and the left's bizarre reaction to it, including this preposterous thread, demonstrate I am only welcome here, as I noted at the outset, if I hush my mouf and play the lovable, equanimous mudpuppy role.
If I have to keep my mouth shut and absorb egregious insults about my character and supposed foolishness without defending myself or pointing out where I think other people are mistaken then I am in a system that has taken on too many of the characteristics of the system that drove me here in the first place; my family of origin.
If I have to walk on eggshells and absorb unwarranted abuse and not rock the boat by speaking up to get along at the  Voicelessness board then it has moved beyond what it used to be when I first came here; a place to be heard. The truly astonishing thing to me is that otherwise kind and decent people apparently cannot see that the egregious, defamatory rhetoric is not only virtually guaranteed to drive anyone not part of the group spouting it out of this place but is exactly the same kind of reckless, thoughtless, over the top stuff many of us endured at the hands of Ns. And it's the same same 'shut up and conform or be shunned' mentality.

I understand Doc's decision to close the board to new members but IMO that began the downhill trend of making it a small, insulated, coffee-klatch kind of club of like minded pals rather than a place where people going through hell could find a calm port in a storm. Insularity inevitably breeds pressure for conformity and conformity necessarily breeds rejection of those who refuse to conform, especially if they speak up about it.
It was fun while it lasted, but as Sam Goldwyn said "include me out".

mud

sea storm:
I understand Doc's decision to close the board to new members but IMO that began the downhill trend of making it a small, insulated, coffee-klatch kind of club of like minded pals rather than a place where people going through hell could find a calm port in a storm.

What you say is true. At least I agree with it. Like any relationship there will be struggles. I don't expect it to be a golden zone of compassion here and there is a normal amount of whinging, complaining and sending out little toxic darts. Human very human.  If your statement is a call to make things better and more authentic then that is wonderful. Respond to some sad, sick, brokenhearted soul and there are plenty here. Me included. It is cold and unforgiving out there and I still find refuge here even though I don't share very much.
I am not sure if I am getting lumped in with the insensitive, shallow , koffee klatchers. Just wish you could come for coffee and have a heart to heart ole buddy.

Sea

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