Author Topic: Facebook post by Micaela (my daughter) on the day after the election  (Read 8646 times)

Dr. Richard Grossman

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My daughter, Micaela Ann Tuttle, posted this on Facebook today (https://www.facebook.com/micaela.grossman.1/posts/10211348722058054), and I wanted to share it:

"Last night America grabbed me by the pussy. It also grabbed my heart, my gut, and my head and squeezed. But like most abusers, there is a cycle of abuse that led to their actions. Please pardon this epic ramble, but I felt that I have stayed too silent on this belief for too long. There is a large portion of Americans who have felt ignored and mocked and finally felt like their voices were being heard. And I am sorry. I'm sorry I didn't do enough to hear you. I'm sorry your life experiences have been different than mine and perhaps you haven't had the opportunity to really get to know enough immigrants or lgbtq+ people or minorities or atheists or Jews or Muslims or people of color or women who have had abortions, or many other assortments of minorities that I now fear for. They aren't magical sanitized token characters that are all good, but they are real people who I am honored to know. I am also sorry for the people living in a liberal bubble that haven't had the opportunity to really get to know this other portion of society that they simply dismiss as stupid. All they see is a caricature. Both sides are wrong. There is so much shouting and not enough listening.
There are some fundamental breaks in society at the moment. People on both sides are dissatisfied. That is very clear. I fear the entrenched sides are similar to where they were leading up to 1861. Both sides also did shameful things then.
So what can we do? Have we reached rock bottom yet? Are we ready to make some fundamental changes? These two candidates were the least popular of all time. Clearly, we didn't end up with our first choices. That's a start. That's an opening to a conversation. But the conversation is the key. Speak with others who are different and believe radically different things from you and ACTUALLY hear them. Travel. Experience life outside of whatever comfortable bubble you've built for yourself. Ask questions. Question everything. Be open and honest. If you want you can start with me. I am a feminist, humanist. I don't believe in god, but grew up Jewish and appreciate the cultural elements. I have many, many queer friends and consider myself an ally. I grew up with and work amongst many immigrants. I've had an abortion that I don't regret. I have family and have known many wonderful people with cognitive and physical challenges. I believe in globalization but also value local government that is listening to the needs of its community. I believe in diplomacy over military action unless absolutely necessary. I believe that black lives do matter and that we have a system nationwide that stacks the deck against people of color.
Do any of these things shock you? Do any of them upset you? It's ok if they do, so let's talk about them.
The fear of the unknown and unexperienced on both sides is the thing that will actually build a wall. So dismantle the wall with questions and an open mind. I'm not saying everyone should be like me, but America is meant to be a melting pot of many different people and ideas, not just a rigid binary breakdown. The hate that has been spewed this last year is not a new development. There was just an open forum and it was deemed socially acceptable to say the things aloud that you had only whispered behind closed doors or alluded to in coded speech. I can't imagine the catharsis that must have provided so many. So if you have now found your voice, welcome to the table. I want to know why you feel like that. I want to introduce you to people and experiences that you might have missed. I want to hear about your experiences.
It's very clear that the civil war never really ended just as it took a long time to actually burst into full military action, but the battle lines have changed. The civil war wasn't JUST about slavery, it was about culture and ways of life and pride and of course money. Reconstruction did very little to fix this if not instill in the former confederacy a distrust of the federal government as the Union had and did carry out some other unspeakable atrocities on southern land and then moved out west where it grew even worse on the indigenous populations. All I'm saying is that we have put bandaid upon bandaid on our historical conflicts as a nation. Could this perhaps be the schism we need to pull those bandaids off and start to actually heal? Is that possible?
I don't know. I'm just a waitress. There are smarter people than me and all I can do is listen, assess, question, and then act. All I ask is that you do the same. Please.
Thanks for listening."

Hopalong

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Re: Facebook post by Micaela (my daughter) on the day after the election
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2016, 10:28:04 AM »
Wow.
How proud you must be to have raised a daughter with such a heart.

Thank you for sharing this, Richard. I love her calls for respect, and conversations, and really trying to understand each other.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Facebook post by Micaela (my daughter) on the day after the election
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2016, 02:24:19 PM »
Thanks, Hops!  I am so lucky to have her as my daughter.

Below is a reply she wrote to a Trump supporter friend who responded to the above post.  After reading her posts, I asked whether I could nominate her to run for president in 2020!

Richard

 
"Shawn, thank you so much for opening up and sharing your thoughts with me. I truly appreciate it so much. Below I wanted to address some of the points you brought up. For anyone else reading, please see his post on my wall. Facebook keeps deleting this as a reply.
1. Welfare
So I spoke with an incredibly smart friend who is a social worker about this. Again, I like to search out people with experience as I know there are smarter people out there and I was curious. Katie is one of those people. Here is what she had to say:
"First of all, there are so many things that are considered “welfare” it’s nearly impossible to determine any patterns at all (re abuse, re use, re populations, etc).
I would imagine that welfare probably refers to TANF (Temporary Aid to Needy Families) and maybe also SNAP (food stamps). And, each state makes their own decisions about public assistance so it’s even more complex.
TANF requires people to engage in work activities which they define SUPER broadly. Any kind of vocational training program counts, job searching, job readiness. Providing childcare for ANOTHER person doing work activity counts. Very loose. And for a two-parent household, there is only a requirement to complete 30 hours per week combined in any way between the two parents. So it may seem like people are doing nothing or gaming the system, but a big piece of this is actually the way the policy is designed. I won’t get into whether or not I agree with this or not.
TANF caseloads have decreased year after year since implementation, through the recession, and despite continuing trends of deep poverty. It is not easy to stay on TANF.
It’s really the way we pay people that keeps them on public assistance. So again, while those “thousands of people” may appear to be gaming the system by receiving assistance and working we all know that minimum wage (and also jobs OVER minimum wage) do not constitute a living wage. http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/the-high-public-cost-of-lo…/
The big takeaway is that public assistance fraud trends are notoriously difficult to illustrate (and you can use/manipulate statistics to prove a point in either direction) but what HAS been proven is that it really happens on the level ABOVE the beneficiaries (eg. doctors and hospitals re. medicare/medicaid) http://www.theatlantic.com/…/just-how-wrong-is-conv…/278690/
Similarly, I would say that employers who do not pay a living wage are defrauding us, forcing taxpayers to make up for their unwillingness to fairly compensate employees.
The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities is a great way to get more info on this. But a blanket statement that lots of people abuse welfare is irresponsible. Yeah sure, there are anecdotal incidences of this happening, probably even people that this individual knows, but as a prevalent problem it’s not been shown to be the case.
2. The Oil Field
I have seen the decline in the oil field industry over the past few years and it is heartbreaking. It's so difficult when a region is so dependent on one industry and that industry falters (see Detroit). Unfortunately for the oil field workers, the future is clearly moving towards clean and renewable energy. I can't say exactly at what pace, but this dependent economy as it stands (without adjustments and refashioning of skills) is eventually untenable.
But what about the oil workers now? Well, the reason why the gulf was shut down was due to the 2010 oil spill, which actually hit the Louisiana economy of tourism and fishing quite hard (which I'm sure you know first hand). This being said, the Obama administration is actually trying to reopen the gulf, much to the chagrin of environmentalists (https://www.google.com/…/obama-administrations-plan-expand-…).
Also, considering how many oil field workers are unemployed or underemployed, it's pretty hard to stomach oil CEO's making upwards of 11 million dollars a year (http://www1.salary.com/MARATHON-OIL-CORP-Executive-Salaries…). That is some serious economic disparity. In addition, the oil and gas industry is a HUGE lobbying force. They have only increased government lobbying in the past ten years coming close to $180 million per year and most of this money is going towards republican candidates (https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=E01). With these numbers it's very hard to see the industry as the victim of the government.
3. Trump as a businessman
There is no question that Trump has built a brand with vast name recognition. However Trump started with quite a head start thanks to his father and his father built a business with a lot of help from federal subsidies which seems to be counter to your sentiment about government aide? (http://www.faireconomy.org/the_self_made_myth_infographic).
Also, Trump himself has declared bankruptcy six times (https://www.washingtonpost.com/…/fact-check-has-trump-decl…/). No matter what, the guy is resilient, I will absolutely give him that!
Lastly, if you are using the model of Trump as the CEO of our national company and the citizens as his employees, please be aware that he has been plagued with labor issues. Just because Ebenezer Scrooge was a businessman, it didn't really work out so well for Tiny Tim? Garrett and I witnessed the strikes and subsequent failure of The Taj Mahal when we were in Atlantic City (https://www.google.com/…/trump-taj-mahal-casino-is-closing-…) but this hasn't been an isolated occurrence. (https://www.google.com/…/hundreds-donald-trumps-employees-h…)
Just because he is a business man, doesn't mean he is necessarily good at it or that he is benevolent towards those beneath him.
4. Make America Great Again
I've never been clear as to what era he was referring to in this statement? Sure, there have been plenty of economic booms and busts over the past several hundred years, but what about the social changes? Does he want to go back to a time before gay marriage? Before civil rights? Before women's suffrage? Before child labor reform? Before slavery? It's true that most of these issues are still things that we are grappling with, but why go back when you could go forward?
I find this phrase to be dog-whistle politics (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics) In addition to his overtly hateful speech, this type of coded language appeals to people who want to go back to a whitewashed fictional version of America. A Pleasantville, if you will this is why groups like the KKK supported his campaign. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/…/the-kkks-official-newspap…/)
5. Campaign Donations
So, here is where I completely agree with you regarding getting money out of politics. Full disclosure, I voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary. I think this point of politicians being bought by special interests is the common ground we all need to move forward together.
However, it's a fallacy to think that Trump is immune to the special interest money. Trump has plenty of super PAC's supporting him (http://www.thedailybeast.com/…/trump-hates-lobbyists-except… or http://www.truth-out.org/…/37219-the-biggest-spender-backin…)
Also, no matter your feelings regarding the NRA, they have not been shy about how much money they have been donating to his campaign. The NRA donated 6.5 million in ad buys at the very end of the campaign (http://m.washingtontimes.com/…/nra-donates-65-million-to-d…/). Again, regardless of whether you agree with their stance or not, it's hard to say that Trump doesn't now owe them something in terms of policy since they are a single issue lobbying group.
My follow up questions for you, as they weren't mentioned in your reasons for support, are that in spite of having loved ones in the lgbtq+ community, how you could support someone (especially Mike Pence) who wants to revoke their rights? How in spite of being surrounded by smart, strong, incredible women, you could back someone who is accused of sexual assault and clearly uses violent and hateful language about women? How as a man of faith, you could support someone who wants to ban an entire people from the US based on their religion? If you substituted the word Christian every time he said Muslim, could you stomach that?
I hope all of this has opened a dialogue and I hope you know that all of this comes from a place of wanting to understand and communicate. It's not from anger. I'm over anger. We need mediation in this country, not war. We need listening and hearing, not shouting.
Both sides are demonizing the other and all we can do is look at the facts and try to empathize with the other. Strip away the noise and hear what people actually, truly want.
Shawn, you're amazing. Thank you again for reaching out to me. I'm honored."

BonesMS

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Re: Facebook post by Micaela (my daughter) on the day after the election
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2016, 07:11:20 AM »
Richard, your daughter is AMAZING!!!!

I've had some people on Facebook give me a hard time because I took a stand.  One attempted to shut me down because my opinion gave her "stress".  Other responses were worse.  I responded as follows:

I am posting this notice to make my position CRYSTAL CLEAR! If my taking a stand against a racist makes you uncomfortable, then you are free to leave. I am not going to relinquish my voice in order to make you comfortable. I REFUSE to respect an A$$WIPE who is a bigot, misogynist, raping PIG! My taking a stand is making you uncomfortable in your White Privilege? Well guess what? Ever since this A$$CLOWN was elected, I've had family members harassed because they are not white. I've been told to "delete myself" because I objected to Islamophobia. White Privilege has NO business telling me and anyone who is a member of a marginalized group to shut up and take it/suck it up because my speaking out is giving your White Privilege "stress". White Privilege does NOT HAVE A CLUE what "stress" REALLY is when you're threatened with lynching because of the color of your skin, or being threatened with rape because you're a woman, or being threatened with death because you're a member of the gay community, (I'm so ANGRY right now I can't remember the acronym in the correct order!) The KKK are dancing in the street and YOU expect ME to STAY SILENT?!?!?! I DON'T F**KING THINK SO!!!!!! I have more to say and I need to stop and breathe for a while!

Just my two cents.
Back Off Bug-A-Loo!

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Facebook post by Micaela (my daughter) on the day after the election
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2016, 06:00:43 PM »
Hi Bones,

Richard, your daughter is AMAZING!!!!

Thanks!  As you can tell, Micaela is the furthest thing/person from "voiceless."  My 91-year-old father printed out a copy of the Facebook posts above to keep.  Sadly for her, in many ways she is more like me than any other person in the universe ;-)

I've had some people on Facebook give me a hard time because I took a stand.  One attempted to shut me down because my opinion gave her "stress".  Other responses were worse.  I responded as follows:

I am posting this notice to make my position CRYSTAL CLEAR! If my taking a stand against a racist makes you uncomfortable, then you are free to leave. I am not going to relinquish my voice in order to make you comfortable. I REFUSE to respect an A$$WIPE who is a bigot, misogynist, raping PIG! My taking a stand is making you uncomfortable in your White Privilege? Well guess what? Ever since this A$$CLOWN was elected, I've had family members harassed because they are not white. I've been told to "delete myself" because I objected to Islamophobia. White Privilege has NO business telling me and anyone who is a member of a marginalized group to shut up and take it/suck it up because my speaking out is giving your White Privilege "stress". White Privilege does NOT HAVE A CLUE what "stress" REALLY is when you're threatened with lynching because of the color of your skin, or being threatened with rape because you're a woman, or being threatened with death because you're a member of the gay community, (I'm so ANGRY right now I can't remember the acronym in the correct order!) The KKK are dancing in the street and YOU expect ME to STAY SILENT?!?!?! I DON'T F**KING THINK SO!!!!!! I have more to say and I need to stop and breathe for a while!

Just my two cents.


Good for you for not being silent!  Keep it up!

Richard

BonesMS

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Re: Facebook post by Micaela (my daughter) on the day after the election
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2016, 12:41:27 PM »
Hi Bones,

Richard, your daughter is AMAZING!!!!

Thanks!  As you can tell, Micaela is the furthest thing/person from "voiceless."  My 91-year-old father printed out a copy of the Facebook posts above to keep.  Sadly for her, in many ways she is more like me than any other person in the universe ;-)

I've had some people on Facebook give me a hard time because I took a stand.  One attempted to shut me down because my opinion gave her "stress".  Other responses were worse.  I responded as follows:

I am posting this notice to make my position CRYSTAL CLEAR! If my taking a stand against a racist makes you uncomfortable, then you are free to leave. I am not going to relinquish my voice in order to make you comfortable. I REFUSE to respect an A$$WIPE who is a bigot, misogynist, raping PIG! My taking a stand is making you uncomfortable in your White Privilege? Well guess what? Ever since this A$$CLOWN was elected, I've had family members harassed because they are not white. I've been told to "delete myself" because I objected to Islamophobia. White Privilege has NO business telling me and anyone who is a member of a marginalized group to shut up and take it/suck it up because my speaking out is giving your White Privilege "stress". White Privilege does NOT HAVE A CLUE what "stress" REALLY is when you're threatened with lynching because of the color of your skin, or being threatened with rape because you're a woman, or being threatened with death because you're a member of the gay community, (I'm so ANGRY right now I can't remember the acronym in the correct order!) The KKK are dancing in the street and YOU expect ME to STAY SILENT?!?!?! I DON'T F**KING THINK SO!!!!!! I have more to say and I need to stop and breathe for a while!

Just my two cents.


Good for you for not being silent!  Keep it up!

Richard

Thanks, Richard!

I posted more later when another idiot started attacking a family member of mine because my family member was defending me and my First Amendment rights.  The idiot went so far as to verbally attack my family member based on her disability and THAT earned the idiot a free launch in my trebuchet bucket!  The idiot didn't stop there!  Idiot kept insisting that my general comments about White Privilege were specifically targeting HER!  (I have NO idea WHERE she got THAT idea as it was a GENERAL statement regarding White Privilege!)  Then idiot ended her rant at me by calling me a Narcissistic Bigot!  I didn't attempt to JADE, I just simply blocked the idiot so she can't continue to harass.
Back Off Bug-A-Loo!

mudpuppy

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Re: Facebook post by Micaela (my daughter) on the day after the election
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2016, 09:37:43 PM »
Hmm, not feeling too welcome here anymore.

mud

Hopalong

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Re: Facebook post by Micaela (my daughter) on the day after the election
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2016, 10:00:47 PM »
Hi (((((((Mud)))))))))--

To my mind, you're more welcome than ever.
There's nothing more vital we all can do these day than love across boundaries, even when in some areas we'll disagree.

Sending you love, and hoping you've had a happy Tgiving.

I'm very glad you're here. And appreciate you in many ways.
STAY!

love to you,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

mudpuppy

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Re: Facebook post by Micaela (my daughter) on the day after the election
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2016, 10:54:56 PM »
Not feeling a lot of boundary crossing love above your comment,  Hops.

mud
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 10:45:08 AM by mudpuppy »

Hopalong

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Re: Facebook post by Micaela (my daughter) on the day after the election
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2016, 02:18:52 PM »
Hi Mud,
Politics, wherever one lands and however one reasons it...is deeply personal, I think. And I have realized I don't ever need to debate it again. I can do that voluntarily at times when it's welcome, but mainly I just need to live in a right way, as best I can.

The only way I see through the alienation we feel (generic "we") from one another is to focus on something a wise therapist told me once (and that I read in other places since).

It's a choice to take offense, maintain a grudge, and especially to judge.

(I like all those. They keep me comfy in my echo chamber. And sometimes they serve a true purpose...to help me not feel alone if I am despairing. But they're not useful or humane as places to live in.)

If it is a choice to take offense, which I have come to believe is mostly true...for me, in order to get unstuck again, I have figured out that compassion is the most powerful thing there is. I don't have to, and there's a lot in the world that wants me not to, but I can choose it. I know it has many names but that's the word that works for me.

Once I choose compassion, for others and for myself, there is no wall between me and anyone. I have to RE-choose it, over and over, when things/people/events knock me out of it. And it's still okay to protect myself (compassion from a distance is sometimes necessary...with Ns, for example.) But it always feels like True North, so I wobble back. Then I feel I have got the direction right. I can't persuade or force anybody else to think about it; it just is what it is.

When I'm angry or hurt or excluded or miffed or frustrated with others, there's still this in my mind: ...it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. I don't do a very good job of it, being at least 9/10 clay, but it's still the lodestar.

That's really the main thing I retained from my childhood faith. That was what I understood. That's what I took in, very profoundly, in my heart. All my thinking, positions, or experiences since then...have never contradicted the truth of that.

Love to you,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

mudpuppy

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Re: Facebook post by Micaela (my daughter) on the day after the election
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2016, 03:22:38 AM »
"Racist, misogynist, xenophobe etc" are not words designed to further rational discussion or debate.
They are words intended to prevent debate precisely because they are intended to offend.

Nobody reasons with  a fascist or a Hitler so if you delegitimize someone and their opinions by labeling them as something scurrilous you not only shut them up, which I would think if it was going to be frowned upon anywhere it would be at a place called "voicelessness", but you don't have to go to all the trouble of, well, thinking or fashioning a rational argument.

Nor is leading off with "Last night America grabbed me by the  hoohaa" a way to encourage thoughtful responses.
If people who voted for Trump were endorsing his crude private remark ten years ago then  can I assume people who voted for Hillary were endorsing her harassment and smears of women who came forward describing her husband's undeniable affairs and assaults and at least one credible accusation of rape or her other numerous crimes and corruptions.

There are people who really do hate minorities and women and foreigners.  What they believe is vile.
Trump's rise was fueled in no small part by people who are sick to death of being lumped in with the KKK and denounced as deplorable and irredeemable not because they believe any of those vile things but because they simply disagree with the people trying to shut them up.

Nor is some guy working three part time jobs in Alabama to try and keep his family from starving going to be too understanding when a bunch of punk kids from Harvard and Princeton and heading for some gold brick job at a non profit stage a protest to denounce his white "privilege".

There is an evil destructive fringe on the right that uses similar tactics and terms as the above and it is sedulously  marginalized by the mainstream right.
 The left accepts and embraces comparably fringe tactics and terms within its mainstream constantlyn as evidenced by their use in this thread,  so it shouldn't be surprised that somebody who plays by their rules and gives it back just as hard as he gets it was successful and popular where obsequious losers like Romney and McCain were not.

The left's political success has depended for decades on them playing hardball while their opponents were playing tiddlywinks. Now some guy gets up and starts throwing the same kind of bean balls at their heads as we've been ducking for all these years and suddenly the snowflakes need to find their safe spaces and stress relieving coloring books.
They made the bed but they don't want to lie in it. That's not how the world works. Call somebody enough names and eventually you find yourself counting your teeth.

Mud 

Hopalong

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Re: Facebook post by Micaela (my daughter) on the day after the election
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2016, 02:51:28 PM »
It's pretty chicken or egg once people get more into
being angry, outraged and/or right than anything else.

I don't know if it'll have value, but since it does address
more intelligently than I can some of your objections, while
also ceding several of your points, thought I'd share this article (from
a librul site) with you. Would love to know if you find any common ground mixed in.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/11/democratic_politics_have_to_be_identity_politics.html

(You're welcome to PM me so we don't tie up the board with politics.)

Yer snowflake friend,
Hops
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 03:07:07 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Facebook post by Micaela (my daughter) on the day after the election
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2016, 11:20:42 AM »
Hi Mud and Hops,

Thanks for your responses!  I'll pass them on to Micaela.

Richard


mudpuppy

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Re: Facebook post by Micaela (my daughter) on the day after the election
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2016, 10:50:28 PM »
Doc G,
I only mentioned one part of the comment by your daughter.  The bulk of her comment was an admirable attempt at rational discussion and I don't want to leave the impression that was unappreciated or unnoticed.
Her response to her FB friend was wrong on almost every point but was again a courteous and reasoned and reasonable comment.
A few more like her would make a world of difference.

Mud

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: Facebook post by Micaela (my daughter) on the day after the election
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2016, 05:14:42 PM »
Thanks, Mud!

I very much appreciate your reply and passed it along to my daughter, Micaela.

Richard