My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This

[longtire]

Thanks for replying all of you.  I started to feel better after a while.  I choose to believe it was the positive thoughts from you here. I stayed busy getting things done around the house and refused to dwell on it, since I know that would have only made me feel worse.  At least this way my todo list is shorter.

I'm convinced my wife is an N w/ some BPD tendencies.  I'm convinced that she's way better at getting people on her side than I am.  Her:  Extroverted manipulator.  Me:  Introverted Avoidant (not so much anymore).  I'll NEVER win that battle so I have to find another way.  On some level, I'm just not convinced that I'm OK.  I hear all of the wonderful support and comments from you and believe me, it helps a lot!  At the end of the day, though, I know *I* need to be OK with myself or I will have to depend on others for it and be at their mercy.  I believe that's what landed me in this relationship in the first place.  This brings up some awful, scary feelings.  I've just tried to make room for them today and not solve anything right now.

!. The counsellor may not have heard your wife say "that didn't happen".
The counsellor may have missed it and therefore does not believe it was said. The counsellor may not be the very best alive and may very well be taking sides. I would not be shocked to learn this. Don't panic.

I've had a feeling for some time that this counselor feels sorry for my wife and has at least shifted in her favor, if not taken sides.  No proof, just a feeling.  Since they talk, I am afraid that this might turn my longtime therapist against me, and I really need his help.

2. When was the last time you had sex? Are you hallucinating that too?

I had to laugh at this one!    Still, in a court of law, it was me who said no more "sex" until we can talk some things out and develop some intimacy.  Besides, I'd much rather make love than have sex any day!

Third, the couples counselor was in over her head because she couldn't keep the session safe, and argued with you about what was heard. You would need a better one, if you ever returned to couples therapy (IMO).

This was the case right from the start.  Neither my wife nor I felt safe in there.  In hindsight, I believe that the counselor should have seen that we were not a loving couple who just needed to learn a few techniques to improve communication.  Trying to do Imago in a grossly dysfunctional relationship is ridiculous.  It just created situations for both of us to feel even more used, hurt and frustrated.

Hang in there. You don't have to justify one damn thing. Who is this judgemental diety anyway? Not one I know.

No, I think the judgement is mostly coming from me on this right now.  I hope to get a chance to talk to my pastor about this tomorrow.  I've got my fingers crossed that he will be supportive when I explain the situation.  I believe that I've got my answer from God already and it is "Move on."

Would it make sense to move out for a period of time and put off any decision about divorce until your head clears? In your case it seems you will have a hard time clearing your mind as long as she is constantly there to control it. I could not get my mind free until I got away from him. Thank God my wife finally forced me to just cut off contact.

Honestly, I think my wife would enjoy it if I moved out and she got to keep living off my money.  I just realized that's why I feel against a separation.  I agree that it is harder to get my mind clear in this environment.  Here's something else, if I have to leave to get my mind clear, that's a clear sign that I need to just leave period.  In any case, I need to work to get my mind clear, I just don't see a case for half measures.  Darn that judgemental intJ again!

Incidentally if I had any doubts about your wife being an N, your last post cured me of that. That is classic N. Vintage stuff.

I understand about being careful with diagnosing others or yourself.  But I've lived with this person for 17 years and known her for over 2 decades.  For at least a decade, I was codependent and "fixing" this person was the focus of my life.  Sometimes you have put down the DSM and admit the obvious!

[vunil]

Longtire--

I am so sorry about your painful situation.

In case you are gathering perspectives, I have a few comments that you can take or leave--

1.  You felt really hurt that the counselor said she didn't hear what your wife said because you aren't feeling heard in general.  I agree with Bunny that this counselor is not super-sharp to have made such a comment under the circumstances.  Just a big blunder on her part, not your fault.  
2.  You are having a bazillion feelings and feel the need to put them into action.  But maybe just watch the feelings, sit with them, see what they are, don't worry about action right now.  I know  this is tough, maybe especially for male people ?  Sometimes action feels more comfortable.
3.  I don't think your therapist was wise to push you for simple solutions and answers a 6 year old would understand.  I think this for two reasons-- you aren't feeling heard as it is, so why force you to explain as if you are on trial?, and the divorce or no divorce decision isn't the important thing right now.  Making the decision won't stop the swirling feelings.  

I think you need love right now.  Warmth, hugs, feelings of comfort.  If I could send those to you right this minute, I would!   Just a feeling of safety and acceptance.

Just let yourself feel what you feel.  None of it is wrong.  I feel as if the people in your life are all pushing you, not trusting you, not allowing yourself to trust yourself.    Please do trust yourself.  

Can you get away for a bit, just with yourself?

Hang in there, keep posting--
Vunil

[Anonymous]

Longtire, I'm glad to hear you sound more like you.

Glad you laughed!    I heard tonight on the news that laughing is very, very good for our hearts (physically).  Opens blood vessels and thus...lowers blood pressure....relaxes many muscles....etc.  Good stuff for those under stress.  They are recomending 10 to 15 min per day of laughing!!!  They even have laughing groups (where people join up....go to meetings......stand around laughing and laughing their heads off at .......nothing.  Looks ridiculous  and funn! ).

 

...it was me who said no more "sex" until we can talk some things out and develop some intimacy. Besides, I'd much rather make love than have sex any day!

I knew that.    I read it in this thread.  My point exactly.  You weren't hallucinating when you made that decision....were you?  You weren't crazy then.....right?  You knew there was a problem and how long has it been?   (never mind....too much information).  It isn't fixed yet, right?

No worries.   Just go with your gut.  Besides.....you're teaching us how to do the two-forward-one-back step.  It's so much better than some of the line dances some of us are mastering!  (I should only speak for myself....I'm an expert at going backwards actually!!).  But I expect MORE from you!!  After all......you have the longest first post on record and thattttt is a very big accomplishment!!

Sweet dreams, Longtire.

GFN

[Anonymous]

longtire,

It is totally possible that the counselor did not hear your wife say that never happened.  Now get this, now we are discussing whether your wife said that something never happened EVER HAPPENED.  It's craziness.  This is classic.  This is typical denial of reality.  I know when something happened and so do you.

I can totally relate to going over and over stuff in your head (I'm INTJ also, I found that out over 20 years ago when I was 22).  It takes me a long time to make a decision, but once it's made it's really made.  I'm very uncomfortable in the phase before the decision is made, I realize that and I allow myself to be uncomfortable.  I don't want to be second guessing myself after the fact so I let myself second guess myself before the decision all I have to.  Eventually you will come to a decision.

Another thing that has always helped me, when dealing with the feeling of being "used", is to recognize how much I grew in the situation.  I realized that I had gained, I came to know myself better, what a wonderful gift.

LM

[Anonymous]

Hi again Longtire

On some level, I'm just not convinced that I'm OK. I hear all of the wonderful support and comments from you and believe me, it helps a lot! At the end of the day, though, I know *I* need to be OK with myself or I will have to depend on others for it and be at their mercy. I believe that's what landed me in this relationship in the first place. This brings up some awful, scary feelings. I've just tried to make room for them today and not solve anything right now.

Do you want to talk about this some more?
I'm not convinced at all that I'm okay. I see life as a battle that makes me tired. It's such an effort!
Depending on others 'to be okay' and being "at their mercy"? Some people are honestly giving and loving and kind. You wouldn't be at their mercy. It wouldn't be part of the equation. Did you catch yourself saying that?

Scary feelings. Best to get them out in the open where they may not be so scary?

[Brigid]

Longtire,
I totally understand the scary part.  All of this is scary.  I would definitely be where you are if it weren't for the fact that my H wouldn't let me.  He refused to discuss leaving or not leaving--he just left and checked out of our lives for 4 weeks before there was any communication.  I can now be grateful for the fact that our marriage is ending, but at the time it was devastating and it put me into a state of shock.

In the last 2 years I have lost my step-grandmother (who I was close to), my son left for college, my husband left, I sold my dream home and moved, and in January, my mother died.  Someone who does stress management training told me I have gone through most of the major stress producers in a very short amount of time.

I guess my point would be that change is scary, but necessary to reaching a point of health and happiness.  Pulling the plug on a long-term relationship, no matter how bad it is, is not easy to do (unless you have another relationship to run to--but we know that is not a healthy decision).

All of my 1 step forward, 2 steps back has had to be with myself.  But it gets better.  I agree with GFN that there is alot of that line dancing too, but its all part of the growth process.  I don't really think that you can work through this while in a living situation with your wife.  You may need to be in a "sterile" environment where you only have yourself to talk to.

You are not nuts, insane or any other crazy term.  You're a man who wants a relationship with a woman that is a two-way street.  These N's only go one-way and its definitely not towards their partner.  When we take our vows before God, it is with the understanding that both parties actually believe and are committed to what is being said.  Think about what a marriage should be and look at what yours is.  They are not compatible.  Love making should be there with both parties engaged.  Communication should be there with both parties engaged.  Intimacy should be there with both parties engaged.  Etc, etc.

My heart breaks for you as I know so intimately how you feel with this struggle.  You're in my prayers.

Brigid

[sleepyhead]

Dear Longtire, hang in there! Making you believe that you are crazy is what they do. My xN would always tell me that I was imagining things, that it was all in my head, that I was crazy etc. (funny how everything I imagined was related to him beimg hurtful to me ). However, when I had a complete breakdown (gee, I wonder why?), he actually confessedto doing all those things! Sick! Anyway, do what you need to do to keep your sanity, if you feel the need then by all means go out and buy a small taperecorder that you can kepp on you at all times (who knows when she will start speeking to you, or should I say at you, again). You can even get a voice-activated one, so you wont have to switch tapes all the time . Just a suggestion, but do whatever it takes to stay sane, I know how difficult it can be, and objective, tangible proof can help.

[Anonymous]

I'm convinced my wife is an N w/ some BPD tendencies.  I'm convinced that she's way better at getting people on her side than I am.  Her:  Extroverted manipulator.  Me:  Introverted Avoidant (not so much anymore).  I'll NEVER win that battle so I have to find another way.

If you're talking about therapists, any couples therapist who shows a preference for either partner needs to be dumped. No therapy can happen in that situation.

On some level, I'm just not convinced that I'm OK.

You only have to be good enough. Can you manage that?

Since they talk, I am afraid that this might turn my longtime therapist against me, and I really need his help.

YOUR THERAPIST CANNOT TAKE SIDES WITH ANOTHER THERAPIST AGAINST YOU. THAT IS MASSIVELY UNETHICAL. When therapists talk to each other, it is not to gossip or speculate about the patient(s). It is for very sparse info sharing. And whenever I've given permission for my doctors, therapists, etc., to talk to each other, they didn't do it. I asked because I started fearing they had. (And I don't think they lied to me.) Please tell your therapist your concerns about his taking sides here! Please!!

This was the case right from the start.  Neither my wife nor I felt safe in there.  In hindsight, I believe that the counselor should have seen that we were not a loving couple who just needed to learn a few techniques to improve communication.  Trying to do Imago in a grossly dysfunctional relationship is ridiculous.  It just created situations for both of us to feel even more used, hurt and frustrated.

I'm very sorry you wasted your time/money with this incompetent person.
A couples therapist needs to be super-good. Better than an individual therapist. They have to understand object relations and intersubjectivity theories. And not understand it superficially. They have to really know it. This is crucial IMO. Otherwise they just cause more damage by not understanding the situation.

I personally am not invested in whether or not you leave the marriage. My question is more about how you can not go crazy with the non-permission to have convictions, or even opinions, and act on them. That, to me, is the real issue. Not your marriage. Take what you need and leave the rest.

{{{ longtire }}}

bunny

[Anonymous]

BTW I trashed one therapist [who I met once, for couples counseling, and dumped immediately] to my individual therapist. He had referred us to this guy and they know each other. I don't care! Confidentiality is a very big deal in therapy. My therapist cannot tell this other therapist what I said. And he has to empathically hear anything I say even if I'm talking about his friend or colleague. That's what he gets paid for!

bunny

[Anonymous]

vunil wrote,

But maybe just watch the feelings, sit with them, see what they are, don't worry about action right now. I know this is tough, maybe especially for male people ?  Sometimes action feels more comfortable.

Good point, vunil, you may be right. I know I brood over things the way longtire does, which paralyzes me, like he is. However, I also know that on occasion, to break out of the brooding, I have acted prematurely. Its very tough to know when to brood some more or just stand up and do something.  Definitely primarily a male thing, I think.
Imagine how boring life would be if we knew the right thing to do and when to do it all the time. And imagine how boring it would be if we couldn't go around telling everyone else what they should do and when to do it, despite our ineptitude in our own lives. I'm only speaking for myself of course.
bunny wrote,

I personally am not invested in whether or not you leave the marriage. My question is more about how you can not go crazy with the non-permission to have convictions, or even opinions, and act on them. That, to me, is the real issue. Not your marriage. Take what you need and leave the rest.

I don't think anyone here is 'invested' in him leaving his marriage. I just don't see how he can stay sane in it? It seems like that is what is driving him bonkers. I know for me personally, with a similar personality to longtire's, as long as I was in my brother's orbit I was not in control of my life. It was only the severing of our relationship which lifted the fog I had been living in. To be perfectly frank I think men are more easily dooped than women, its just that more Ns are men so there are more women victims. We of the hairy side of the species are just not that sharp, regardless of our intelligence. At least that's my experience.
Of course if we're not that sharp I guess nobody should listen to us anyway. I'm beginning to ramble, so I'll guess I'll sign off.
This is the point in a conversation where I realize everybody else knows more than me so I shut up and try to learn something.

mudpuppy

[Anonymous]

Its very tough to know when to brood some more or just stand up and do something. Definitely primarily a male thing, I think.

MudPuppy no! Female brooder here, don't know when it's best to act and usually do it at the 'wrong' time when I do. Or do the wrong thing. At the right time. Anyway, aren't the hairy ones the ones who are the decisive captains of industry? The Senators and Murdochs of this world? The male / female differences are more about brain approaches to problem-solving and perspectives (e.g. map-reading vs. asking for directions....)

Are you an INTJ personality too then? This board must be a collection zone for us!

[Anonymous]

Hi Guest,

Anyway, aren't the hairy ones the ones who are the decisive captains of industry? The Senators and Murdochs of this world?

I said the hairy ones aren't that sharp, and you said aren't they the ones running the world, to which I say "would you like to take credit for the state of the world?" I didn't think so.
Capitalism is a wonderful thing. Capitalists are pigs.
Political freedom is a wonderful thing. Politicians make lawyers look saintly, oh wait most politicians are lawyers.
God is the most wonderful thing, man's organized religions are not.
Let's face it, the world is a horrible place, and men run the world. Credit where credit is due as I said somewhere else.
Now, that said, I'm sure the world would be just as horrible if women ran it. Just in a different way. It would be a gentler, prettier, pastel hell.

Not too uplifting, but no use denying the way things are.
We can still see the wonders and beauty in the world, and still see a glimpse of God's love in the ones who love us, but its pretty hard to ignore what life is for most people.
Geez, I depressed myself.

mud

[Anonymous]

Are you an INTJ personality too then? This board must be a collection zone for us!

Oh yeah, I forgot. I think I was an INSJ, or an ISTJ or an AFL-CIO or an AARP. No, wait a minute, I'm pretty sure I wasn't that last one.

It started with an I and ended with a J. I think there was an S in there somewhere cause I'm such a caring Sensitive kinda guy. Maybe the other letter was an F, for Forgets what he is.

mud

[longtire]

A quick reply, more later.  Thanks to everyone again for replies, goodwill and prayers.  One of the reasons I appreciate your feeback (aside from being supportive and caring ) is that none of you are involved in my situation so you can give "outside" feedback.  Hopefully, that means you can be more objective about things than I can when I'm right in the middle of it.

I am aware that most of this stuff coming up is mine.  Expressing my experience to myself and others based on concrete, observable descriptions seems like a perfectly valid thing for me to be able to do.  (Maybe I need to practice the technique starting with a more mundane subject?)  My therapist was supportive and understanding in our session.  Addressing things in the way we did brought up a lot of feelings and "stuff" for me.

I know this is my stuff, NOT something coming from my wife.  (There is stuff coming from my wife of course, but this is my childhood wound, not her repeated digs at that wound.)  This pre-dates my wife coming into my life.  I grew up in a house where neither of my parents had ANY facility with their feelings.  They did not discuss their feelings, problems, solutions, approaches, understandings, etc. EVER that I remember.  Not only was none of this modeled for me, when I tried to express my feelings, my parents acted like they didn't know what I was talking about.  I received NO, NONE, ZERO validation for my existence, feelings, worth, reasons for existing, etc.

For all my life, I haven't been able to figure out if I have any right to exist, feel the way I do, think the way I do, believe the way I do, or especially to act on these inner experiences.  Its like there is point A, something happens, and point B, I feel/think/believe, but I don't know how to find point C, so I will do/say this.  Its like a missing bridge.  I believe this is why I accepted being with my wife in the first place.  Of course, that experience then further confused my already confused view and I got stuck.

[sleepyhead]

It would be a gentler, prettier, pastel hell.

   

I literally laughed out loud! However I'm a female and I dont like pastels, more bright colours... Do like pretty though, pretty is good, and sparkly, and fluffy and cute...Sound like hell for the haiaier ones yet?