Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Heist on Something....
Twoapenny:
--- Quote from: Hopalong on December 31, 2017, 02:06:39 AM ---Hope I have the nerve to share this article with B.
(Head shoots back down into sand....)
--- Quote ---https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2017/12/29/a374a268-ea6d-11e7-8a6a-80acf0774e64_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-d%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.2bb8fdb67346
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
It might be a good way to discuss race issues (that I know are important to you) - without leading the conversation - to get an idea of whether he does have very different views on race to yourself, or whether he just has an off sense of humour. It would be interesting to see what he thinks without you prompting him (by pre-empting it with "I didn't like the racial stereotypes in those jokes you sent me) to get a good idea of what he really thinks about these issues - or if he even thinks about them at all? It's probably a good barometer of his feelings on this matter (it reminds me a bit of those essay questions in college that were simply "x finds humour in y, but is it all it seems? Discuss").
I get what Skep is saying about not dismissing people with different views to our own or small aspects of someone's personality not being a barrier to them being great for us in other ways - but equally I am quite sensitive to that subtle sort of discrimination that seeps through society and it bothers me when people, at a very fundamental level, feel that some people are more important than others. It's all about perspective, isn't it, what are the deal breakers, what is just a mildly irritating point as oppose to a humdinger that will make life together intolerable in time. So yes, I think it would be interesting to send to B with a note saying, "I found this interesting - what do you think?" - and then see what happens? xx
sKePTiKal:
O/T musings...
I was "there" and I was of an age to be "aware" when the bra burnings happened. And I (actually Twiggy) thought it was the best thing since sliced Wonder bread. So, over the course of my childhood I went from "girls don't belong in Dad's garage, learning to weld" to seeing it become possible for women to someday be taken seriously as soldiers. (Took the rest of my life for that happen - and I'm NOT happy about HOW that's been done, but it has happened.)
But I also saw how a new cage was built around women with feminism... and what it has done to men.
I was "there" and "aware" when the Civil Rights act was passed -- and for the horrors that happened after. A kid that age isn't supposed to ask the kinds of questions I asked - and am STILL asking about the human condition/our humanity almost requiring non-perfection; social organization and political systems. I do pass judgement on what has happened in that 40-50 years... with the caveat that not all the evidence is in yet to conclusively "prove" a blessed thing and I think we need to reclaim the ability to say: well that didn't work so well, did it? Maybe we should try something else.
Norway... is the source of my bits of Viking DNA Hops. Shieldmaidens were just as important as the leaders and fighters and explorers. Maybe not as important as the boat builders and farmers. But it is critical to the success of that egalitarian society that women's equality in status didn't come at the expense of MEN'S. (Which is something we see too much of, elsewhere. In order to raise someone up - someone else is getting torn down. That isn't NECESSARY, so why is it happening?)
So, looking at the wide-angle scope of trust issues... I can no longer trust any "ism" to be manna from heaven and perfect. Once the ideas hit the individual human level all kinds of entropic, egoistic and corrupt things can happen to it. I question it with the thoroughness of the Spanish Inquisition. And pick out the genuinely GOOD bits of ideas... dismiss the bad ones... and refuse to accept the whole cocktail of the -ism just because SOME of the ideas are good. I'm selective, I guess.
But like you, I've been picking my way very carefully - to find what I can live with, and manifest myself - from the same life environment events. And we're both stronger for understanding each other's point of view and accepting - and honoring - how we've veered off the main path to individualize our understandings. Women do, do that better than men - in some cases. It's not like a law of nature; there are exceptions.
As for the CEO culture... (we really should have that beer in front of a cozy fire...)
my bestie from high school days grew up with those advantages - while I was the rebel, disreputable, outspoken (go figure), pioneer carving out my own path. Her mother absolutely hated me. But at this stage of life - our statuses have flipped. The beach neighborhood was full of retired admirals, CEOs of defense contractors and major corporations. Mike always joked that one of the first things we should've done when we moved in, was put a car up on blocks in the front yard. Run up the pirate skull & crossbones... and despite that - he was the status seeker, social schmoozer and thrived on it. I did NOT. After 6 years there, there was only a handful of women that I kinda felt comfortable with and that I didn't completely shock or terrify or confuse. But I did get to know the men - because I was the CEO in our household, liked to talk engineering, strategy & tactics, etc.
They were wary at first, of course. I simply didn't fit into the Southern woman category or corporate wife one either. But I could hold my own socially, as long as it was "guy talk". The stereotypes simply do not hold up at the individual level. Not even with the women. There were only a couple of people that I noticed trying to live up (or is it down?) to their stereotype. Once past the first impressions, everyone was really quite human, usually well-read and intelligent, caring, compassionate and involved. With any "rule" regarding people, yes - there are exceptions.
I think you should worry less about the world B is coming from... and start asking about his personal experience with that world. That will yield a lot more useful information about "who he is"... and help you get past the hurdles of your own pre-conceptions about him and "what he's coming from". It puts you both on equal footing, too. It says your values and way of being in the world and your cumulative experience is DIFFERENT - but just as valid. Yeah, I'm still just as concerned about the joke email as everyone else... and the one making out session too. But there are always going to be awkwardnesses in the "getting to know you" phase. How he explains his motivations... could be important in deciding it's nothing to worry about or that he's hiding something. But I always put more stock in what people do, than what they SAY.
What Lighter said - about enjoying yourself - despite the eventual outcome is a good opportunity to stay grounded. Nothing is serious yet; y'all are just dating and getting to know each other. The trust hasn't been built yet. And this phase gives Hops a chance to get from "dunno" to a baseline of trust - or throwing him back in the pool. Whichever makes sense & feels right at that point in time. LOL.
Hopalong:
Well lordybove, y'all. He told me he loves me in the middle of a movie tonight.
I feel good. Kind of stunned. Wary of speed but not suspicious of him.
Couldn't say it back as I just can't until I am sure we're solid...not fooling ourselves...and it feels so soon. But he has slowed down, respected the boundaries ever since he said he would.
Yikers.
Yikers.
Yikers.
I'm a little concerned he's going to blurt out a proposal and I'd like him not to, yet. Couldn't say yes this minute, or month. I kidded him about his executive management style (Here is the Goal, the Strategic Plan, the Action Steps...) Kicked him out before midnight, after peeling pooch off his lap.
(OH, and I did bring up the jokes, and he heard me about the Weinstein one being offensive, defending that he'd laughed at another -- didn't seem to tune into its racism really, but being from that area he'd taken it as a funny play on another common sticker that just silhouettes "people on board". Unaware or avoidant answer, imo, but I've never heard him say or do anything directly racist. He said they were sent by a neighbor. He'd mentioned a neighbor who "sees things like I do" so I do feel he's keeping that darker side of himself sequestered. I dunno how serious it is.)
Right now, just trying to take in the new developments this evening. He said we're on the same page about what a "life partner" means (I said, you know what that means for me, and he said, we're on the same page...). So yikers. He wanted to talk about where we'd live because he knows that could be a big situation to solve.
Holy moly. I need to remember who I am, where I am, what I care about. But all in all, yikers.
xo
Hops
Twoapenny:
--- Quote from: Hopalong on January 01, 2018, 01:05:04 AM ---Well lordybove, y'all. He told me he loves me in the middle of a movie tonight.
I feel good. Kind of stunned. Wary of speed but not suspicious of him.
Couldn't say it back as I just can't until I am sure we're solid...not fooling ourselves...and it feels so soon. But he has slowed down, respected the boundaries ever since he said he would.
Yikers.
Yikers.
Yikers.
I'm a little concerned he's going to blurt out a proposal and I'd like him not to, yet. Couldn't say yes this minute, or month. I kidded him about his executive management style (Here is the Goal, the Strategic Plan, the Action Steps...) Kicked him out before midnight, after peeling pooch off his lap.
(OH, and I did bring up the jokes, and he heard me about the Weinstein one being offensive, defending that he'd laughed at another -- didn't seem to tune into its racism really, but being from that area he'd taken it as a funny play on another common sticker that just silhouettes "people on board". Unaware or avoidant answer, imo, but I've never heard him say or do anything directly racist. He said they were sent by a neighbor. He'd mentioned a neighbor who "sees things like I do" so I do feel he's keeping that darker side of himself sequestered. I dunno how serious it is.)
Right now, just trying to take in the new developments this evening. He said we're on the same page about what a "life partner" means (I said, you know what that means for me, and he said, we're on the same page...). So yikers. He wanted to talk about where we'd live because he knows that could be a big situation to solve.
Holy moly. I need to remember who I am, where I am, what I care about. But all in all, yikers.
xo
Hops
--- End quote ---
Well it looks like he read Skep's previous comment that 'nothing is serious yet' and decided to change that. Yikers indeed!
I don't want to sound like the voice of doom but it seems a bit fast. As glorious as you are, Hops, I'm always a little concerned by people who fall in love very quickly. To me it doesn't seem sincere. There's not enough time to get to know someone - really know someone (as in, are they racist, are they sexist, do they just tell me what I want to hear to move things on more quickly). I remember, years ago, being heartbroken by yet another perfect guy who'd swept me off my feet, taken me to wonderful places, told me wonderful things - and then just vanished without a bye or leave. I was crying on the shoulder of a male friend about it and he said that men who come in to your life very quickly tend to leave it again just as fast. It was good advice and I've heeded it ever since.
I think I'd feel happier (sorry to be blunt, but I feel protective of you and want to lecture you as if I'm your mum ;) ) if the casual racism/sexism had been resolved (he hadn't actually read all the jokes/he doesn't really get 'humour'/he was actually sending it as an example of how easily this sort of thing is joked about). He did slow down - for about a week, before he sprung "I love you and where shall we live".
I don't feel he's getting you, Hops. Putting aside racism/sexism type issues, I have friends who I know find certain jokes funny, and who I know would find certain jokes offensive (or just aren't their cup of tea). He doesn't seem to have that grasp on you, your core values, your fairness and your need for equality and so on. I get that he's worked in a high powered environment and so has that management thing going on - but you've worked in numerous demanding roles in your life and you've seen the damage that inequality and a very focused, fixed mind set can cause. Which is why you're so gloriously open and free.
So I would say put the brakes very firmly on. I get that it's lovely to feel loved - honestly, I truly do. I am hoping, with every bit of myself, that this will be a good situation for you and one that will bring you much happiness and joy. But with my sensible hat on you've still only been dating for a few weeks. You've already had some fairly big red flags come up - in what is generally the honeymoon period in any relationship It seems to be him constantly trying to move this forward. It still feels like you're working hard to accommodate him and adjust to his wants, his needs, his timeframe. Are you comfortable with him seeing your untidy house yet? Are you happy for him to be there when you have a staying in bed, I want to read on my own day? He's not said or done anything directly racist but he has been indirectly racist, and defended that, and I think that's something you need to hold a big magnifying glass over. I'm worried that you're trying to iron out the elements of him that you find unpalatable quickly because he wants to move so fast. I feel like you're being rushed to make decisions and it's bothering me a bit.
I am sorry to write things that are largely negative because I really do hope that this is all good and everything is glorious but there seems to be a pattern in your posts about him that are up high (lovely night, met friends, did/said something lovely) and then down low (groped me, was rude about the waitress, sent me racist jokes). There's a sort of roller coaster pattern forming that is concerning me. Did he tell you he loved you before or after you brought up the jokes? I think the timing of that might give you a bit more of inclination about the situation. Again, sorry to sound negative, I don't want to be, but I am worried that this is all happening too fast xx
Hopalong:
Not to worry, (((((Tupp))))), I am very grateful for your support in my foot staying firmly on the brakes. That's my intent, and though I'm very affected by his declaration I'm wary of its speed for exactly the reasons you cite. I do think he was a little indirect about my reaction to the "jokes" but in person, didn't sense anything uber-ugly bubbling (largely because of his story about the muslim man). Just a blind spot of privilege and context. (He's from the Detroit area and that may have contributed to some cynicism about that "Detroit bumper sticker" image, not that it excuses it.) I have to measure it against what I've seen in person, so far. It's troubling, gives me serious pause, and I'm not done wanting to get a more clear view of what that's about....but it's not full dive, dive! siren yet. Partly because he's respectful and hears me when I challenge him on stuff. Every time, so far.
One thing about character. He was trying to give me a compliment by comparing me to another woman my age (less "attractive" with less exuberant personality kinds of things). I expressed discomfort. He pays attention. He asked, why doesn't this feel like a good compliment to you? I said, it's nice to be valued but I don't feel good inside if I'm being complimented at the expense of another woman. What I told you about how deep my solidarity with women is, because of sexism...that is real. He responded by heartfeltly saying that I am a very good person.
He notices it when I express compassion and he moves closer when I do. My hope is that a superficial right-leaning circle he is in online doesn't have an iron grip on his soul. Hops dunno yet.
He blurted the love declaration after a moving scene in the Churchill movie that we both had the same goose-bump reaction to. It was spontaneous. I sent him a warm email later that I am keeping my foot on the brake because while very moved by what he's offering, I also want to be thoughtful all the way through.
It's pretty amazing and typically Tupp-astute that you used the term "roller coaster." This morning he wrote back: "I think I've been on a bit of an emotional roller coaster, since we met and I seem to over react to positives and negatives in our path. Your emails often give me a sense of stability and reason."
Anyhow, your motherly warnings and cautions are extremely welcome. I know there's a risk at my age, and after years of loneliness, of flinging caution to the winds. But I won't. If anything I might risk missing out because I let my caution lead too much. Somewhere in the middle, I hope the right knowing will become clear. He IS always a couple steps ahead and urging things forward. That is his issue, his difficulty in containing his impulses while he's swamped with a panicky loneliness.
It's not that he's insincere, I truly feel. Just that he is indeed on a widower's roller coaster and way quicker than I am to think fusing with another woman (me) asap is automatically the right solution. Then again, I've heard many stories about people later in life who waste little time once they think they've found someone. I think the aging, sense of imminent mortality, has something to do with his speed also.
[adding] Forgot to answer your intriguing questions:
--- Quote ---Are you comfortable with him seeing your untidy house yet?...
Funny you asked that. Made an intentional decision to not tidy the kitchen, leave an open unloaded dishwasher as it was plus some dirty dishes on counter. Felt fine. He didn't appear to notice (and I didn't care).
Are you happy for him to be there when you have a staying in bed, I want to read on my own day?
Not yet. I'm super protective of my time to myself and privacy. As long as he's pushing the river I'm inclined to stay on the cozy bank by myself. But that could change in time...
Did he tell you he loved you before or after you brought up the jokes?
Before. You said something about this timing being revealing. Can I ask what you meant? Wasn't sure I followed.
--- End quote ---
Thank you so much for being alongside me as I navigate this stuff. You VESMB Amazons are my sisters in the sky and I could not be more grateful. (One expects high-schoolers to have patience for all these he-said, I-said and then he-did, I-did breathless romantic blow by blows....but I know how lucky I am to have grownup VESMB sisters willing to tolerate it too!)
love,
Hops
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