Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Heist on Something....
lighter:
And....
Just bc a man says he's offering what you desire most doesn't necessarily mean that's the offer. Sometimes he just doesn't have it to give, even if he'd like to, IME.
A smart man will listen to what you say, and use that information, Hops. His intentions are another matter.
If B says just the right thing, it's not reason to throw caution to the wind, ime. It requires even more examination.
Be careful what you ask for, Hops.
Lighter
Hopalong:
Wow. A lot to digest.
And so valuable.
Tupp, I believe the blurt about love was not calculated. I think he really does have a loose grip on his feelings right now.
And Lighter, I know that words of love don't entitle him to anything. Your point about him continuing to move faster (in saying it) that I want to is well taken. At the same time, I'm not really receiving it as sinister. He is like a great gallumphing Clydesdale trying to slow his own wagon as it's already heading down a slope.
Another odd thought I had (harking back a bit to Tupp's musings about his cues things)...30 years in his company, he was in charge of all sales. I wonder if some of his press, press behavior is kind of wired in -- in the sense that he's driven to "close a deal"? He's approached the world that way for so long he might (inadvertently?) be approaching a woman that way too?
Again, I think he's been delirious with loneliness. I attribute a lot of his speed to that, too.
But my ears are swiveling and I'm working hard to not gloss over too much, and to try to see what is real and trustworthy. He does seem like a person who takes duty, responsibility, and character very seriously.
His woman-stuff, Tupp, the cumulative little comments, is a red flag. And I do intend to take it down and look at it closely.
One thought I had is that I may tell him (six months from now, say) that I would like to undergo serious premarital counseling before making any commitment that would irrevocably alter our lives. I'll blame it on my own track record. I think he'd agree, and that it'd be a good idea.
Late for work...dang it. Thanks, you all, thanks so much.
love
Hops
Twoapenny:
--- Quote from: Hopalong on January 02, 2018, 10:14:29 AM ---Wow. A lot to digest.
And so valuable.
Tupp, I believe the blurt about love was not calculated. I think he really does have a loose grip on his feelings right now.
And Lighter, I know that words of love don't entitle him to anything. Your point about him continuing to move faster (in saying it) that I want to is well taken. At the same time, I'm not really receiving it as sinister. He is like a great gallumphing Clydesdale trying to slow his own wagon as it's already heading down a slope.
Another odd thought I had (harking back a bit to Tupp's musings about his cues things)...30 years in his company, he was in charge of all sales. I wonder if some of his press, press behavior is kind of wired in -- in the sense that he's driven to "close a deal"? He's approached the world that way for so long he might (inadvertently?) be approaching a woman that way too?
Again, I think he's been delirious with loneliness. I attribute a lot of his speed to that, too.
But my ears are swiveling and I'm working hard to not gloss over too much, and to try to see what is real and trustworthy. He does seem like a person who takes duty, responsibility, and character very seriously.
His woman-stuff, Tupp, the cumulative little comments, is a red flag. And I do intend to take it down and look at it closely.
One thought I had is that I may tell him (six months from now, say) that I would like to undergo serious premarital counseling before making any commitment that would irrevocably alter our lives. I'll blame it on my own track record. I think he'd agree, and that it'd be a good idea.
Late for work...dang it. Thanks, you all, thanks so much.
love
Hops
--- End quote ---
I think you are going into it with eyes wide open, Hops, which is a good thing, and you're very honest with yourself, which is also good (and very hard to do, in my opinion). I think in all honesty you can look at any person's personality and find red flags - we all have aspects and elements of ourselves that don't look great under a microscope - I think it's a case of whether the good bits outweigh the bad bits and whether the bad bits are bad enough to harm someone else or if they're rough edges that can be accommodated or smoothed out.
I think the couples counseling is an excellent idea! It would help to have some objective, professional input and it's good to be able to say necessary things in that sort of professional environment. I think it's also a good way to work through things but to leave them at the office rather than taking them home with you - a therapist I used to see used to say I could offload all my horrible stuff and leave it at her office rather than taking it home with me. It always made me feel very comfortable. I'm rootin' for ya! I'm really hoping this turns out to be an utterly good thing :) xx
Hopalong:
Looking back on #121 in response to #120...I see myself writing 4 different explanations for him. I don't know if I'm offering him excuses, presenting the kindest version of him to convince myself, or pointing out that forgiving flaws and leading with a gentle interpretation is the happier path. (I do believe the latter but it's a question of degree, and of how damaging those particular flaws would be. Do I over or under react? I'll know in time but as of now, dunno... )
I want to also not rationalize my other observation there, because it could trump all the good stuff unless he's ready for epiphany. IMO, it wouldn't be impossible but would be remarkable if he came to realize that "little jokes" or "casual" denigrating remarks about women he's heard/learned for many years in the company of men.... that these cumulative leaks of hostility toward the female add up to a red flag.
I need the courage to let him know that I take them seriously, and why. (That women have been hiding hurt and swallowing anger about chronic put-downs and belittlement for a very long time. They're often called over-sensitive if they visibly react to "just a joke" but some eventually realize that these male [or iassimilated female] habits have become their habitat. With its concomitant losses of opportunity, income, safety, aspiration, etc. I'm feeling hopeful I can, and likewise hopeful that he can take it in.
Golden Rule is a pretty good simple plan. Plus, presuming goodwill (that's harder for me). I should just proceed the way I'd want him to if there was an important area he sees as red flaggy that he'd like me to become more aware about. Maybe we could create something pretty good if we coud extend each other that opportunity without fear of contempt.
White Like Me by Tim Wise is such an extraordinary book, that I wish there were a similar one aimed at male readers, to sensitively, smartly walk them through the female experience and its ramifications. Or a range of them. He writes so well about race that ime, white people who read it do not experience defensiveness, shame or resentment....but realization. A softening of opinion through existential discomfort. (Like a wound. Itches, aches, on its way to healing.)
I guess I could go look for a book like that. I don't want a diatribe against men but a sensitive explanation of sexism, aimed not at blaming but at inviting the male reader to empathize. Haven't read any polemics about it for many years, so I'm not up on the best.
xo
Hops
Twoapenny:
Hopsie, I'm playing Devil's advocate here again at the moment but ........................I'd be kind of wary if there are things about him you need to change to make him more acceptable to you?
He's moving faster than you are
He wants to get the deal sealed and signed quickly.
He's struggling to cope with loneliness (which we all experience and I understand how tough that is as I struggle with it myself - but it means that some people just want 'someone' to fill the gap - which isn't good for the other person).
You've had an unpleasant physical experience with him.
He's made several unpleasant remarks about women (which makes me assume that his wife didn't challenge him on this and therefore may have been quite subservient to him in some way?).
He's sent you racist jokes (which he had no qualms about when you told him how you felt about them).
It could be that he's just not right for you? Putting aside all the reasons for it - work environment and so on - but just that that means he's not ticking all your boxes (which are perfectly reasonable boxes, in my opinion). I get that he's nice, charming, responsible and so on - but that doesn't necessarily make him a good match? I'd bet there are other guys out there who are happy to move slowly, who are comfortable being alone and happy enough in their own skin not to make disparaging remarks about other people, regardless of gender or race (or anything else).
I'm wondering if perhaps your lack of trust in yourself (in terms of judgement - you mention over or under reacting) is making you think in terms of how you should handle the things you don't like about him - instead of making you wonder whether he's just not right for you. I also wonder if your lovely heart focuses on his loneliness and the nice things he does (I get that, because I do the same) and makes you want to rub out the less pleasant aspects of his personality.
Not trying to be overly critical or put a spanner in the works - but just wondering if the simplest explanation is he's just not your Mr Right? xx
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