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Heist on Something....

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Hopalong:
I'm glad you play Debbil, Tupp. SO grateful for your perspective and especially your questions!

I really am not sure.

Given his readiness for commitment, over-speedy though it is, at age 68 when this is the first time I've had this experience despite years+ of on-again, off-again dating, I'm reluctant to leap to the Eject button for B.

I think I'd rather stay as mindful as I can and give it/him some more time. I'm not panicking and that's largely because of this team of Amazons! I don't think I'll delude myself entirely and also know that whatever I read here is going to be insightful, caring, and come from valuable experience.

I'm trying to look at it this way, too: I value learning about myself and about other humans. And as to social/political views, I've been in my own echo-bubble for a looooooong time, and my division from so many other people saddens me. How amazing it might be to find new little bridges that two different people could build together, motivated by love? (Not woo-woo romantic, but agape.)

I'm guarding my heart sufficiently (zero impulse to fling it all the way over the bar like I used to nearly every damn time). So far, though it's been mildly bumpy and I've been ever-ready to panic, every time I try to address something with him seriously, he listens attentively and responds respectfully. I don't think he's pretending this. That doesn't mean that he responds by instantly adopting my interpretation or my perspective, but what is new for me is sensing respect, not "tolerance." Noticing how he listens, tries. He may have been unready to unpack his reaction to one of those two offensive jokes completely, but I think we can look at it again sometime. (Already have a Tim Wise book to share if he'd like...).

Otherwise, I might feel as though I were "lying in wait" for him to screw up, and I don't really want to approach him that way. He is in counseling for grief still, with a female therapist, which says one thing about him. Another is that he really loved his wife. At least I believe so.

It's different than when I was young or even middle-aged. Then, I still had youth-ish on my side and could visualize lots of invisible hypothetical mating opportunities coming my way. The truth is, that's much more difficult when you can see age 70 just two years away.

Are these normal compromises older women consider when dating? I can't speak for anybody else but notice that I do feel happier, generally. Just knowing someone is really into me, dreams of a life with me, makes me feel less alone and scared in the world. (I have, you've probably noticed, been really scared of a bleak old age.)

No guarantees and you're absolutely right that I'm not going to re-engineer him either.

I imagine this is going to be a bunch of ups and downs and LOADS of posting here. I hope I don't wear out my welcome. And can't express how much I appreciate this space. It's astonishing.

Thanks mucho mucho,
xxoo
Hops

Hopalong:
B has the flu, so though we've been in touch by phone, I'm having a week to really let all of it sink in, and try again for good discernment.

I think in unloading so much fear here (which I would possibly have about any new relationship I think, because of my history) I have distorted things perhaps. And I seriously welcome your observations/questions about whether you think I have or not. I'm sick of my own "dunno" but I guess that's part of this process. I know that the offer of a real life-changing relationship triggered pure panic for a while. Despite the fact that I would like it to happen and have spent years in sporadic attempts to find one.

I've used every writing skill I have to spell out my fears of the horrible dominant chauvinist inside the boyfriend. A goblin. I've added his politics/worldview on top of what I think are pretty intense general fears of intimacy that I haven't fully unpacked.

Some things that occur to me that could be important, or perhaps aren't:
--The night when I was chattering nervously and he pressed on...he stopped. Looked at my face, and instantly changed to kissing me in a tender way. Which I reciprocated. It was a moment, and a negative one. But I never described the followup behavior. Does that change anybody's perception?

--The images I didn't like came from his neighbor and though he did deflect my description of the stick-figure "bumper sticker" one as racist (said he was just thinking it was a spoof on the stick-figure "baby/family on board" similar ones). I think he was evading it, because it made him uncomfortable. He wasn't contemptuous or rude, I think he was not ready to face the embarrassing possibility that he had laughed at a racist meme. My question to myself is, given how he reacted to the real intimidation of a muslim man he knew...is he actually racist? I'm not sure it's fair to label him that, and suspect that unlike me (who grew up in a southern community in close contact with many black citizens), he did not. He grew up in a privileged white bubble outside of Detroit. So I think it might be fair to say that, like many people, he wasn't humanizing a mental image of urban black people. I think he should, obviously, but I don't know how fair it is to pillory him for not having gotten it. I also don't sense that he has a "case closed" mindset. Though I could be wrong.

Because I'm who I am I am struggling to reconcile extreme feminism in my own core, with trying to work out which stupid jokes he makes are knee-jerk male-bonding programming, and which could be serious. What I'm contrasting it with is the fact that he listens to me, responds respectfully to my opinions, and has made clear he respects my intelligence. And I do think he's a product of the environments he's been steeped in, just as I am.

The conundrum is that having someone care, be involved in my life, be supportive and (yes Amber) even protective....would be a huge, huge change.

As I listen in silence to whatever's rolling through my brain, I want to come up eventually with a choice that:

Does not--
imperil my integrity
trigger self-abandonment
undermine my principles

Does--
offer me a chance at love
end the loneliness
provide some hope

I think the only way I can get there, to the right choice, is going to be to neither leap forward nor leap away. I think something important is happening between us that has the potential to transform both our lives for the better. I also think that in wanting that to come true, I am wary of my own ability to imagine something that may not be.

Best things I can think to do meanwhile are:
--keep on posting my internal ups, downs, and realizations
--keep talking to my T and weather a crisis of self-doubt in my capacity to judge wisely
--lean on friends I trust to keep me in balance
--discern, discern, discern

If you're fed up with me or thinking I've lost my mind, I understand. I so appreciate your patience. It's been hard to go into this and would be hard to go out of it. But I am committed to ultimately coming to a place that feels truthful, real, honest and as right as I can get it.

I've been alone for a long time and could continue that life, though where I'd end up might be pretty bleak.  I am aware that age has changed my sense of what's tolerable and what's non-negotiable. Am I the oldest woman here? Perhaps some of you either are nearing my cohort or have stories about older women you know who have entered a new relationship at an older age. If you do and would like to share, I'd love to hear them.

love
Hops

Twoapenny:
Hopsie, I think all you can do is what you've been doing - spend time together, talk, laugh, experience things, see how things go.  Racism/sexism/all other isms - they are all on a spectrum, some obvious, some not so much, some you would be able to brush off, some you wouldn't.  My sister and her partner's family hold views on immigration that I would consider racist - they consider them sensible methods of self preservation.  We just kind of talk about other things so that we don't get into issues that could become contentious.

I think maybe try to put to one side any kind of labeling for a little while.  It's early days.  We all make mistakes.  We say and do things because we're nervous/put on the spot/distracted and so on.  I don't think the fact that he's sent some jokes that aren't to taste necessarily means that he is a racist, misogynistic control freak.  We all have to find out what makes a person tick (both people; he's learning about you at the same time as you are learning about him).  I think possibly what comes is whether the same (at the moment small) issues keep surfacing and/or become bigger issues - and I guess, more importantly, whether you can live with them.

I don't think he, or the relationship, needs to be perfect.  I think it's perfectly reasonable to go for a guy who makes you feel happy, warm, loved but sometimes laughs at things you find offensive or doesn't always see the world the same way that you do.  I don't think being on your own for the rest of your life is an option any of us finds particularly appealing.  Whilst I'd always say being on your own is better than being in an unhappy relationship, I think it's perfectly possible to be happy in an imperfect relationship with a man who has his heart in the right place but doesn't always say or do the right things.  It's all a question of degrees, in my opinion - I think all the time the good moments outweigh the bad ones (and that bad ones aren't eating away at your self esteem, self confidence and so on) then being happy is the most important thing.

I've played Devil's Advocate a few times, mostly because I know it helps me when people throw a harsh, unforgiving light on a situation - it cuts away the excess baggage and forces me to look at things in a really real way.  But whilst I get that B is yes, moving fast, yes, there have been the racist/sexist worry moments, he doesn't seem to be directing nastiness or unpleasantness in your direction at all.  The unsettling moments you've described could be a sign of that further down the line but he's not showing signs of being someone who wants to change you or make you feel bad or uncomfortable about yourself (in fact it seems the opposite of that).

You are very intelligent and very wise emotionally as well, Hops, and I think you need to hold on to that.  You're seeing things as they happen, you're noticing, you're thinking, you're shifting.  I don't see you ending up in an awful situation you can't get out of; I just don't think your life experiences would let that occur.  I think just keep on keeping on.  Either the little things that have cropped up so far will level out a bit - or they'll keep cropping up and become more of a problem.  I am still crossing fingers!

As for being fed up or thinking you've lost your mind, no, far from it, you sound totally together and very aware of where you are with this and what's going on. I think that some people have to have happy endings, right? :) xx

sKePTiKal:
Hops, not tired or fed up at all. I just have a housefull of people this weekend. (More on that later.)

I'm about 7 years younger than you. All of your doubts sound normal to me. (Including your worries about red flags - even though I do think they're less significant than you do.) No matter our age, we don't have any roadmaps for these kinds of relationships - and there's no one "right way" for them to be. That makes everything seem scarier because you don't have a real yardstick to measure things by.

You know that you haven't reached the intimacy stage - so you can only trust your own eyes and perceptions/intuitions. And you HAVE to trust yourself if you're going to get to intimacy. It's not optional.

Twoapenny:
Hops, just following on from what Skep said and thinking about it more this evening, I think it boils down to (a) yes, there's a risk that you might get your heart broken (and there's nothing you can do about that, if you fall in love there's a chance it will go wrong and that's just how it is but (b) I don't think you're going to walk into an elephant trap.  I think if there is something/anything off/wrong/out of place you will see it, recognise it and do something about it.  If you were talking about getting married next week and selling your house to put into his house/business/fancy holiday/whatever I'd be screaming "no"!  But you just won't get caught in a situation like that; you're too astute and you've had your fingers burnt before so worst case scenario the heartbreak risk is real but it always will be, however politically correct someone else's jokes might be :) xx

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