Author Topic: Heist on Something....  (Read 30119 times)

Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #150 on: January 19, 2018, 07:13:43 PM »
Thanks, (((Amber))).

It's just that India is a big continent...so many "theys" live there, golly.

 :lol: :shock:

I will vent with my friend Kushal (best bud at last university job).

hugs
Hops
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Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #151 on: January 20, 2018, 01:45:28 PM »
Thanks, Amber.
Interestingly, the friend I sent that email to hasn't responded.
I think her reaction will be a sort of friendship test. My guess is her own judgmental side will kick in.

I think a Stereotypes thread sounds really interesting.

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Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #152 on: January 20, 2018, 03:02:26 PM »
Hops, that's such a good (and incredibly honest) piece about B that I really don't think you need to have any concerns about whether you are over or under reacting to things, or putting things that are important to you to one side.  I think you sound more like a T than a T!  Lol.  I think it's great that you are so open to the things you aren't keen on (where B's concerned) but also be willing to get to know him better to find out whether that will be a problem or not.  I do think it's good that he's listened to your concerns when you've raised them and not just dismissed them.  When is your weekend away coming up, is it soon? xx

Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #153 on: February 12, 2018, 08:56:20 AM »
To my surprise, The Trip (one day, one overnight) went well!

We drove about 3.5 hours to a little mountain town known for Appalachian music. Stayed in an old hotel. My room was fine and his was too. We saw some extraordinary musicians...a trio that elevates bluegrass to something near classical at a skill and emotional level I've seldom heard. They were electrifying; I've spent some time this morning reading about them and listening to various performances. (The opening act was standard old-time country and capped off by a religious lecture and aggressive reminders about Old Glory). The second group (brothers), when they blew us out of our seats with humane, sublime warmth and blazing-delicate proficiency was a revelation. No pun intended. What I've read about their childhood in Europe, though the info is limited, gives depth to their humanitarian philosophy, which truly comes through in their playing.)

I got to know B a lot better and vice versa. Just having that much more time--driving, exploring, dealing with the daily...was good for us. He is bewildered by my level of empathy, honestly bewildered. I talk about human culture and about animals from a different place. He has a view of humanity as dark and savage (which explains a lot of his anxiety, I think). He was raised by loving but demanding parents (particularly his father) on a small farm --though his Dad was a lawyer, they had the farm) and did hard physical labor his whole life (while I was reading my way onto another planet). He told me a lot more about his feelings at the Academy...like, when the day started with very hard runs he would burst across the campus running flat out with a sense of truly ferocious drive and elation. (He was so proud of his squad being Honor Squad two years out of four). He kept that up for years, a huge drive to achieve, accomplish, be the best he could be...etc.

I told him how much my four years of teaching poetry in: urban, suburban, ghetto and Appalachian impoverished schools had affected me. Without fail, children were open, full of wonder, brave and powerful. More concerned with justice than any adult I've ever met. It was good to hear the deep influences we've had in our lives.

While he was exerting himself as a powerful athlete and training for the military (he spent years at the Pentagon doing engineering), I was hiding under the covers, trembling, trying to survive while too sensitive to cope and overwhelmed by cruelties. And about as athletic as a turnip.

He said he does respond to life more with his brain than his heart. He also said he is somewhat OCD. I knew that but hearing him simply acknowledge it was healing. I asked in a gentle way, do you feel that after all those years of intensive air force discipline and later executive life, you might have a habit of managing people a lot? (He had required THREE phone calls to discuss what we'd take for lunch on the road. He is very obsessive about both food and plans and it drives me a little batty.) Anyway, he said, "Yes. You don't like it." And I just responded, "No, I don't."

What was nice about that exchange was it was just real. Free of anger. Free of defensiveness. And I think for all my concern that he might have some anger struggles, the way he can also just be honest and non-defensive is encouraging. He does seem intent on truthfulness, and that's big.

I still think the outcome's unknown and we'd have a ton of work to do. He has visions in his head about relationships that are unreal for me. An overwhelming fantasy of what "us" would be or "married" would mean, in terms of filling in his daydreams OR reflecting his 40+ years of previous partnership. I have no idea if I could make him happy when he has such drive to complete a fantasy and I am so very different in tastes and lifestyle than he's used to. But I do feel encouraged that he continues to listen and is braver than I thought, willing to inch out of his comfort zone.

It was a good time.

Now I'm mostly looking forward to my T in an hour, and picking up my pooch after that. It was just so strange last night, not having her here....

love y'all,
Hops

« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 08:59:11 AM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #154 on: February 12, 2018, 10:58:39 AM »
Hops I'm really glad you had a good time. There's some truly interesting music coming from the Bluegrass side of music these days. Almost a revival of the old "folkie" stuff that got buried under rock & roll.

I have more to say, I think... but I'm gonna let it roll around in my head for awhile and see it even makes sense, and if I really know what I'm trying to say.
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lighter

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #155 on: February 12, 2018, 11:42:42 PM »
I'm glad you had a good time, Hops.  I'm glad you and B can see each other..... really see.

B may have his visions of married life, but you keep him grounded, my dear.  You certainly aren't a prop in a man's life.....not that he sees women that way.  Just say'in..... falling into someone else's happy fantasy is an uncomfortable place to fall, IME.

I'm happy to read you're communicating so well with B.  Come what may..... that's hopeful.
Lighter.



sKePTiKal

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #156 on: February 13, 2018, 08:45:44 AM »
Naw, I didn't have any more to say than, I'm glad you had fun and that you two are getting along just FINE...  LOL.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #157 on: February 13, 2018, 11:28:00 AM »
Thanks, Amber (and Lighter!).
I feel as though I've stopped fearing whether or not he is a well-intentioned or decent person. I'm still concerned about what I consider cruel politics, but getting to know him better helps me see that this has a logic to it that comes from the environments he's lived in and the people he's admired. They sadden me but being angry about it is pointless. On another level it's moving to find ourselves connecting (as best we can) even across such an enormous gulf in world view. And there is no difference in why I have my "soft, sloppy" views, either. It's the environments I've lived in and the people I've been inspired by. Same same. Different different. So maybe in our own little way, whether it's lifelong or not, we've been discovering something hopeful. To reach across that gulf with kindness or even love is a big deal, given the state of society. I don't know whether I should, or he should, sacrifice the rest of our lives to such diplomacy, but it's been good to see people can.

Where I see challenge, and don't yet know whether I can overcome it, is in the personality stuff. My own faults, laziness, stubbornness, impatience, etc. are very big to me and could become so to him. My other weaknesses -- ADD, cowardice, difficulty sharing my space and time, fear of enmeshment -- could be deal breakers too.

What I struggle to cope with about him are:
The OCD. His slowness and timidity about decisions, making transitions, obsessssssssssssions about food planning especially -- are hugely difficult for me. I become impatient, irritable -- and stressed, because I do not want to be irritable about things he can't help.
The managerial side. It's huge. And also seems like a compulsion. He is SO attached to being paternalistic, in charge, and being right because he’s successful...this drives me bonkers. He does listen to my perspectives attentively, so I think the opinion differences aren't as big a deal as the sort of "energy" all his “managing” can insert into being together.
Fantasy vs reality. I've belatedly caught on to an issue (you get this Lighter). He constantly calls to tell me about "if you were here, I would kiss you, and then we would sit on the sofa, and then you would.... etc etc." His fantasizing is so detailed and engineery that for me, it drains desire and spontaneity. I do think a lot of the time he is in his head, planning, engineering a future, and thus not entering deeply into the present (except for expressing need for touch).
Back to management. After a lovely time, he'll make a "talking points takeaway" kind of executive summary. "That was a very good kiss." "For tonight you get an A+." He is forever making evaluative ‘grading’ pronouncements about me or us. He says these are compliments, but something in me is turned off. I don’t think he means to be condescending, but I struggle not to take it that way.
Ignorance. He is not much of a reader. He doesn’t spend a lot of time thinking about society or culture, or least way less than I do. He focuses on preserving the status quo and following the existing “rules” he’s familiar with. He doesn’t challenge class things, or envision a different world. In fairness, he knows what has worked for him in life, and he got rich. But he’s oblivious to white and male privilege, which I find just intellectually dull. I don’t want him to feel guilty for his good fortune, and he’s right that people create their own luck in many ways, but when it comes to empathy for the unlucky plus acceptance of how cruel this culture is to the vulnerable, he seems clueless. (Maybe if I were a rich older white man I wouldn’t want to look at it either.)
Lucky for B (hah), I’m going to give him a Tim Wise book called Under the Affluence. I don’t want to “train” or “educate” B myself but if he’d at least read that book, I’d feel more hopeful.

All that said I do feel more hopeful after this trip. And I can’t change him, just work to figure out whether I have the goodness and patience I’d need to become his mate. I also have to figure out a huge one….money. The next Big Thing we’ll need to find our way through is how to establish understandings about money (him rich, me church mouse) so that the gulf (again with the gulfs!) would not, in times of disagreement or disappointment, rise up to kill love.

I would love some security. I would LOATHE anyone who held money-power over my head. That’s a scary one.

I would love y’alls random thoughts about that.

Thanks for hanging in on the Heist!
xo
Hops
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 11:53:38 AM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #158 on: February 13, 2018, 12:20:49 PM »
Thank you! I need to think about something/someone else for a bit.

Shoe was on the other foot, with Mike & I. I didn't want him to suffer ego-wounds or feel as if I was in control of all money decisions. We never really had a "formal" agreement about it, once his old debt was cleared. What we did do, is make money decisions over a certain amount, a discussion and joint agreement process. That gave him latitude to feel free enough with the checkbook, to do his favorite bargain shopping, etc. without anyone looking over his shoulder. And of course, going through estate planning... we had to talk about and formalize the arrangements for my girls and his D.

But with Ex#2... money was definitely weaponized, to maintain his preferred balance of power. Oh sure, my paycheck went into my checking... and I paid my debts and bills... but security of the financial type all resided with him, until I jumped off of that cliff and completely walked away from my equity in the place we built together. It was that important to my emotional survival to do so.

Something I insisted on - and will again - is always having my own money, separate checking acct, etc. We even had a separate household account for awhile, while we were working out the biggest problems about communicating about money. Every single couple goes through this. It helps if you both can talk about it in practical terms without one person getting defensive - or insisting only one way is "right" and will work.

I do think relationships between people who come from such different past lives can work. But it's going to take the work you two have already been doing... trying to see things from the other's point of view and actually "understand" - not just respect/tolerate. That's how you'll find the common ground between the two points. In a nutshell, you'll have to decide if you can live with the other on a daily basis... accepting that this is who the other is. That includes accepting Hops' warts & all too. Without keeping score.

OH... and about his business/managerial persona?? Best thing you can do is remember you might have to be more assertive than normal about your druthers, preferences, etc. It'll help remind him that a partnership doesn't brook one person always giving orders. Think of it, as he's hard of hearing, when it comes to considering other people's wants/needs... and not being all that good at reading emotional body language either. LOL.

There, I did have something useful to say. I hope!  ;)
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Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #159 on: February 13, 2018, 03:06:17 PM »
INCREDIBLY useful, Amber. Thank you so much.

Late to work so I'll check in later but just know that was such a thoughtful, reality-based response...it helps me think. (One of my challenges...thinking so much sometimes renders me incapable of a grain of common sense.)

Thank you!
xxxooo
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #160 on: February 14, 2018, 04:27:13 PM »
That was great advice about money perspective, Amber, thank you again.

I'm just all over the place.
I've gained  5lb since meeting B, purely stress and comfort eating.

I know any new relationship is hard but adapting to him is really a challenge.
I wonder at times whether it's TOO hard, and whether I'm trying to force myself to continue because I'm so afraid of old age. That makes me feel badly about myself. Then again, when we connect and talk I start feeling warm and hopeful. What concerns me is how rapidly that evaporates.

I don't like having him come to my house. It's irrational but I feel invaded, and resent tidying up. I guess I'm expecting another "grade" though all he's said is, "Your house is neat!" (Not tidy neat but cool neat, with art and stuff.)

So I've been avoiding getting ready all day and will have to do that now in a rush as he arrives in an hour and a half.

I wish I knew why I go from feeling so yucky and fighting off the urge to end it, and so hopeful.

Je do not make sense.

xo
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #161 on: February 14, 2018, 06:08:17 PM »
Maybe....

You were hoping for an easier compatibility?

You know there are things about you that aren't going to change; because you're not willing to give them up... and you're afraid that's going to be a problem for him. (Have you ASKED him yet?)

You really are bothered by those things you perceive and feel... that might not be what he intended, and he's not tuned in to your level of sensitivity (the "grades") to know he's stepping on your toes. (You probably ought to bring it up.)

Or maybe you're just starting to get cold feet and honestly don't want to have to work that hard. (Which IMO, is valid - but right now I'm the poster girl for cold feet.)
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lighter

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #162 on: February 14, 2018, 08:09:02 PM »
Oy....Hops.  I got nothin.

Well....maybe you're thinking too hard about this.  Maybe paying attention to the feelings, as they come up, with less worry about what they could mean.

This is about exploring a new relationship with all the possibilities it might entail.  Leave fear out for a while and breath.....write down how you feel.  Read it.  Write some more.

You'll figure this out.  Please trust you will.

Lighter


Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #163 on: February 14, 2018, 10:44:59 PM »
Thank you guys, so much.

I realize I build up all this anxiety and spend hours dueling with fantasy B, big scary conservative man...and then when he got here (hiding behind roses) all he really wants is to eat together, cuddle with pooch for a movie. And he is very very happy with simple connection.

I feel more comfortable touching him than I did, and it was a sweet cozy evening.

I think I monsterize him when he's absent (reading politics all morning doesn't help) but actually with him, I am feeling more at ease. The weekend trip really did help.

It's confusing but you give me courage to just be present and keep having a little confidence. Thank you Lighter for saying I'll know when I need to. I needed to hear that. And Amber, thank you for reminding me to name my fears and ask my questions.

I feel calmer. Today was ridiculously anxious and then the evening was sweet and peaceful. Duh.

love to youse,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #164 on: February 15, 2018, 04:37:09 AM »
Wow I've missed loads, the board seems to have got really busy in a few short days and Hops you seem to have crammed in a month's worth of stuff in a couple of days!  I'm glad the weekend was good :)  I understand the 'is this good, is it not, am I scared, am I happy' thing (and sometimes we're just scared of being happy, right?  One thing that struck me early on was this:

Where I see challenge, and don't yet know whether I can overcome it, is in the personality stuff. My own faults, laziness, stubbornness, impatience, etc. are very big to me and could become so to him. My other weaknesses -- ADD, cowardice, difficulty sharing my space and time, fear of enmeshment -- could be deal breakers too.

I know we don't know each other in real life and I know what comes across on a forum tends to be a certain aspect of a person and we edit ourselves and so on - but this description of you is the opposite of the way you have always come across to me.
Laziness - you've worked all your life, paid and unpaid.  You dealt with that whole situation with your mum and your brother, and I remember reading on here about a big basement you had to clear out whilst your back was so bad you could hardly sit some days.  The situation with your D was/is so complex and has required so much work and you've worked really hard on yourself and with yourself all through that, refusing to become bitter, resentful, or throw in the towel.  You had that horrible N Boss that you put up with for years and when that finished you slogged through endless job applications and then reinvented yourself as a self employed carer and companion - all at a time when a lot of people would have just taken their pension and sat themselves in front of the telly.  Added to which you refurbished your house, took in pooch (who needed a whole lot of love in those early days) and you're writing a book!  Lazy is not a word that springs to mind when I think of you, Miss Hops :)

And then I can carry on in the same vein, basically; I think the way you've dealt with a lot of difficult people around you over the years and the achingly difficult situation with your D shows you are far from either stubborn or impatient - just this situation with B has shown how flexible and patient you are with other people.  ADD is a tough condition to live with and shows strength, not weakness and cowardice, I don't think I can think of many people who are braver than you are.  I don't know why you think about yourself in this way, Hops, as it's so different to the way you come across on here?  And sharing space and time and avoiding enmeshment - I think these are just sensible ways to live, I don't see anything wrong with that.  So I guess what's coming across for me is still a sense that you're not thinking you're good enough for B - but he seems delighted with you?  I know I find it very hard to accept people can like me for me, including and/or despite my 'faults' - so I don't know if there's still an element of that underscoring all of this?

I get where you're coming from with the personality differences (although I love the fact that he loves your empathy and consideration for others - I think you might inspire him to think outside his comfortable box and show him a world he hasn't encountered before and that can only be a good thing).  A friend of mine has an OCD about food type of boyfriend and it drove her nuts in the early days as well.  What she did was basically give him full responsibility for all meals - he shops, prepares, whizzes about in the kitchen and enjoys every minute of it and she sits down to lovely meals that she doesn't have to lift a finger to prepare.  I don't know if that sort of arrangement would work for you but I thought I'd mention in as an example of how some things can be shifted around to make them a bit easier to manage?  In some cases; I'm sure there are some ways it doesn't work :)

Money - I'm very territorial about my cash and I hate wasting it on things that other people think of as treats (I think "I could have done that at home for £3 instead of spending £15).  After a couple of horrible money + men experiences in the past I think the only way I would be comfortable financially with someone else would be to have a joint account into which we both paid the same for joint and household expenses and then our own accounts for anything else - to spend as each other sees fit.  I think money can cause enormous problems but you have held your own for many years, Hops, I don't think there will be a financial situation that you can't deal with.  Yes it's unbalanced but equally if you were both on similar incomes I bet there would still be imbalances in how the money was spent or managed.  I think it's just one of those things where perhaps you agree on joint things and then do what you like with what's left.

I do a lot of that 'what if' planning in my head and I'm trying really hard to let it go at the minute.  I think it comes from our fear - if we can plan what to do if x, y or z happens then we're safer.  I think it comes from those endless years of being under attack, or just from having the rug pulled from under us and being left to pick up the pieces.  I'm trying really hard at the moment to focus on asking questions, listening to the answer and then asking more questions, instead of my usual position of trying to imagine the questions and then having a defence in place.  I did notice that when I talk to people I'm usually listening out for the barb or criticism and being ready to fend it off, instead of just listening to what they say and then asking more about it, without thinking about myself in that context, if that makes any sense?  I think I've just confused myself now lol, but for example (and this is a silly thing) I'm going to the hairdresser this morning and usually I go into a situation with my defences up and ready to answer questions about my son (who will be with me) or defend other aspects of my life.  I kind of plan it all out in my mind so I'm ready.  But what I'm noticing more is that most other people aren't actually waiting to tear me down, they're just chatting to pass the time.  So what I'm thinking now is how much I don't know about other people, because I'm not asking questions, I'm waiting to justify my existence to them.  So I'm trying to change that to ask more questions and take it as it comes instead of trying to micro manage it in my mind beforehand.

I don't know if that makes sense or if that's how you feel about what you do (in relation to getting ready to B coming to visit) but it's what sprung to mind when I read your post so I thought I would waffle on about it :) xx