Heist on Something....

[Hopalong]

Now there's an idea!

 

Perfect. That even incorporates the compulsive engineeritis.

[Twoapenny]

Hops, you have every right to be offended and pissed off.  You're not being heard.  Everyone has a right to be offended and pissed off.

B lacking empathy and understanding, his right wing politics, his sexist/racist jokes, the groaning when you kiss, the obsession over food, his fear of new things, all the things you've talked about on here - none of these things make him a bad person.  The fact that he isn't a bad person doesn't mean he's right for you, or that there's anything wrong with you for being pissed off/offended/irritated when he does any of the above.  I expect you are right that this is his personality, that it's hard wired into him and that it's not stuff he can change, however much he might want to.  In just the same way I doubt you can change feeling offended at racist or sexist comments, or at a lack of understanding about the situation with your D, or feeling miffed that planning a meal is such a pantomime when a bowl of soup and a bread roll would do, or being irritated with some of the things he does.

I think there are different kinds of people.  Some people are doers and fixers on a superficial level - try this, tick the box, move on to the next thing.  Nothing wrong with that.  Some people are doers and fixers on a deeper level - they think and they ponder, they talk, they cry, they try to understand more, they reach out to other people, they accept that some things can't be fixed but it hurts deeply because it isn't something they can throw away and start again with.  Nothing wrong with that, either. We are what we are.

Your situation with your D is something that few people would understand, I think.  I think family fall outs of this nature often make people think there's a quick fix solution, a couple of chats, everyone apologises and it all gets better.  Few people really get it.  I get the same with my son; very few people really understand the extent of his problems and I get to a point where I can't face going through it all again because it's just too painful.  To explain to someone how hurt you are, how deeply you've been affected, how tough you find upcoming events takes it out of you.  For them not to hear - and then to say "I don't always get on with my daughter" - is tougher still.

It isn't a bad thing or fault on anyone's part if you and B don't work out.  It isn't a failure if he's a nice guy and you enjoy his company but he can't give you the depth that you need with other people.  Some habits can be overlooked, some things can be worked on - and some differences are so great that it just won't happen.  I just don't think you should beat yourself up about this if you end up thinking it's not going to work out. 

I wish I had some suggestions for things to do in relation to the SAD but there's nothing I can think of.  I'm kind of having the opposite at the moment; I'm starting to feel so much better as the days are getting longer that I'm realising this winter actually affected me quite badly so I'm going to have to try and address it for next winter.  I hope it passes quickly for you and doesn't linger for too long.  And I'm sorry for the feelings that come up over the Easter break and I hope that the days don't pass too slowly xx

[Hopalong]

Tupp, thank you.
That was a perfectly mature and measured response to my rant...I really appreciate it.

Saw B last night, with a group of others, and was again struck by how lovely he can be. As ever, once I am with him again the panicking over the personality bits that don't work for me recedes. He said something about how stressed I'd seemed on the phone and was very gentle and authentic.

I think I'm carrying an existing anxiety cycle into this relationship and that sometimes my reactions are disproportionate. But I also appreciate how often you remind me that it's not a sin to be irritated, either.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that after so many years on my own, the prospect of being close and connected, much less committed, is daunting. Maybe in some ways I don't see when in the grip of them, I have an impulse to sabotage it with a stream of inner critical thoughts.

Thanks again for the insight and faith,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Sigh. This might sound brutal Hops; but it's because I luvs ya.

Any time you start thinking that you can remake yourself and that will fix the relationship... it's bad. I see you keep putting the responsibility for reacting to who he is on yourself. Maybe you simply don't like those things about him. And perhaps they bother you enough - and always will - that you need to think of your dates as "practice" for someone who is a better fit.

But you're allowed to not like those things about him. It doesn't make you mean or uncharitable or anything else. And it doesn't make him a bad person. Just "not right" for Hops.

I think your anxiety comes up AFTER he's done something you don't like, but you stifle that to avoid the confrontation. And because those things bother you deeply enough you feel like you're betraying yourself. You not only have to decide if you can live with the way he is; but can you live with yourself, doing that?

[lighter]

So.....Hops......this B......
From here he's starting to look like one of the people you care for.

Except this is a more lasting permanent exchange of time and resources.  I'm not judging you or him or the relationship, bc I don't have enough information.  I just share what comes up for me and..... I picture you in this relationship, permanently, without time and space if your own to buffer and heal you.

There are sore spots rubbed raw, and will they be bone oyou n bone when you share intimate space with this fellow?  Will meals become trauma OR will you care less about his doofus traits and relax into security of having someone in your life.....having a plan for the future.....I honestly don't know. 

I'm not the kind of person who can do that.  I've tried, and to an extent, for a short less than 7 year period succeeded, but I was so busy I could almost fool myself into pretending it might be ok.

  Escape was always on my mind....one day I knew it would be over.  Would have to end.  I'd leave, flee, go, and not look back. 

I don't want to think of you living that way.  Ever. 

About feeling cared for, and valued..... it's very important. 
:: nodding::.
About companionship.... it's either more comfortable or less.  Nothing is perfect, but What it must be, IME, is low drama, sans physical and emotional poking at you.  There's no comfort in being poked.

The poking needs to stop, bc no one finds comfort in being poked.  Even sainted, healing empaths with ideas about handling the poking, and inevitable feelings about being poked, kwim?

We'll, that wasn't clear at all, but I have to say.....speak up.  With clarity.  I know there are things to lose.  I know there's comfort in the pack.  We're pack animals, but we require enough sheltered space....enough true understanding of who our true selves are to exist without feeling trapped, and always in flight mode.

If this B can't come'round nuff to provide emotional safety for you, dear Hops, then you must decide if you can provide it for yourself.  With him....without him....no matter what...can you cultivate, in an enduring fashion, for you?  Despite whatever poking you're up against?

I ask myself if something will matter in a hundred years...it helps me find perspective.  Some things matter much less after the 100 year test.

I can see you in 5 years, very active, you're in groups,  have friends, activities and enjoying volunteer slots.  I can see you  WITH and without B.   

I'm not sure if choosing B would break you, or if you'd make peace with what I think of as his blind spots.  And....is he the type if man who could make peace with you doing your own thing, busy and active, not entirely focused on him and your life together?  If he's needy, and clingy, and annoying as hell when you seek your bliss, to the exclusion if bliss, then maybe he is just practice.

I don't believe other people complete us.  I don't feel they should make us happy.  We're largely responsible for seeking out joy, IMO. 

With that said, our companions shouldn't block joy, challenge our mental health or poke us in every way possible in an ongoing daily fashion either.  There has to be some enduring understanding, comfort, and space that's real, and somewhat whole in our lives.

  I'm allergic to conflict, and grappling for space and freedom leaves me gasping emotionally.  It always has.  I assume it always will. 

Can you create your own little oasis of comfort in this B equation?  Can you not?  Can you make comfortable peace with letting this connection, this being adored and needed,  go by?  Even if B's a very slow learner of all things Hops.... he's identified qualities in you he's drawn to, has assigned an engineer's value to.  He dies it often....not likely to stop, IMO either.

 I don't care who you are, that's intoxicating stuff....to be so very valued, but it can also be a cell, IME.

If it's the latter.....if you're yearning to be away from b.... it's likely a cell.

Once I rebuffed a guy for seeming needy and clingy.... I sent him away, bc he didn't it couldn't hear me, and give me more requested space...yes, this is my b.

 In the space that followed I figured out some very important things.  I was unnused to kindness....to caring....to deep and abiding attachment....to being cherished by a man.  I decided I could make peace with my discomfort, and I quickly did.  He was the live of my life.  Things kept getting better and better.....but I had to make conscious adjustments as I went. 

We were both givers.... I tried on comfort with receiving.  It was different, but it worked.  I got better at it, and his comfort levels improved, bc he got to DO what made him feel good.

We all, in the end, do what makes us feel good, Tupp.  Some if us can shift or change a bit.  Most can't, ime. 

I say play with perspective, with receiving, with requesting, and how it feels, Hops. 

So far this has been about B needing wanting asking for, stating what makes him feel ok.  What about Hops, and her needs, wants, requirements.  What do you truly neeeeeeed to be ok on this planet? 

You know more about what you don't want.  Can you do something proactive about what you do want?

Time to take frank stock, and find some clarity, Hops.

Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

Good post & advice, Lighter.

[Hopalong]

Thank you ALL.
I do have to watch out for avoidance, etc. I do have to take responsibility for calming and soothing myself, even when he displays blind spots or quirks he can't help (or needs to be reminded are important to work on). I don't have to reshape myself, become someone I'm not, or abandon my own life because he offers me a shared one. Those are my fears of enmeshment, from my Nmother and from two miserable marriages. I ponder our economic differences, and worry that I might sometimes (when not tuned into my wellbeing) confuse cooperation with obedience.

I don't do obedience. And I have no idea whether he'd fantasize he wants that. Despite my times of anxiety or weakness, I am not afraid I'd abandon myself.

We haven't had the money talk yet, but we will. I will feel more clarity after we do. Depending on whether he signals money as control, versus as cooperation, I'll know whether it feels emotionally safe to go long term. Meanwhile, he's innocent of anything other than my fearful fantasies.

His own neediness I think is manageable on my end by simply claiming the time and space I need. I have consistently done that so far, and he's managed. He gets satisfaction out of other activities and does have a few friends he keeps up with, plus his daughter. So even if he should try to make me his Everything, I will refuse the role. I don't think he intends to do that, but has his unaware stuff too.

The thing about "being poked" is that I'm not. Rather, I'm having surges of anxiety or anger when he simply does or says something that's in his nature, not intended in any negative way. I do feel not that I must change who I am to be with him, but that I must take responsibility for managing myself. Not solely to please or accomodate him, but to create my own peace if I wish to continue in this relationship.

I do have a hypercritical and always-editing reflex that comes up in intimate relationships. I think it's some kind of defensiveness that comes out of intense fear of being controlled. B is managerial, but he's also very decent and cares about doing the right thing. He's managed, managed, managed people and situations his whole life. It's his way of doing good (in his view). So I have to figure out whether I can do the calm and consistent assertiveness that I want to do, aim for, or get better at. Because his nature is such that I'd always need to be able to respond No, thanks but I don't need a solution, etc etc -- always. And if I get calmly comfortable with doing that, with speaking up, with not allowing festering...maybe it'd become a beautiful thing. I think there's a hope of this.

He's not poking me. I'm allowing myself (my raw nature) to be intensely reactive to his ordinary B-ness. IOW, what I take as a poke sometimes, ain't necessarily a poke. It's just a comment, a reflex, a habit of B's.

Yes, if it's too much, I'll take a walk. But I'm not there now. Because the sense of being cherished is also real, and valuable, and surprising to me. It's been so many years since I felt loved, and I do believe B loves me. While being "taken care of" isn't my MO (I have rejected I don't know how many well off men due to incompatibility), B's offer does affect me. I'm just at that place in my life now where I can't pretend that's irrelevant. Kind of hate that it is any factor at all, but in truth, it's there. I just will not allow myself to accept a shared life until and unless my heart goes deeper.

That's the other thing. My heart IS softening, and my own ability to love and cherish is surfacing. I am feeling tenderness toward him lately that is strong and new. Just a sense that he's no more imperfect than I am, and that he does have a good heart and good intention for me, and for us.

I don't know whether that all means we can craft a good life. But I still think it may be possible.

In other news, about my D, got distressing info about her this morning. Will post that on another thread.

You guys have no idea how much it means to have you here. Thank you.

love,
Hops

PS--Occurs to me that I might be driving you guys crazy with a form of Yes-BUTtiness, and want to apologize. On the one hand, I bleat and vent about his Most Irritating habits/impulses, and then you affirm my right to be annoyed by whatever and how it's okay to find this practice rather than permanence. Then I come again and post defending him and positing a possible lovely future with him. So it must feel like watching tennis and a little crazy making. Please forgive and please DO keep sharing your thoughts. Even when I seem to be batting them back, that's likely more unawareness, anxiety, uncertainty. Your thoughts are STILL planting seeds of understanding and insight even if I don't get them fully in the moment.

I think in some ways debating myself. My inconsistency is maddening to me, and must be to you too at times. Know how profoundly (words fail) I am grateful that you keep caring anyway. Your brains and hearts have made so much difference in my life, and this is truly the safest space I've got. Don't give up on me!

[Twoapenny]

I don't think you're inconsistent, Hops, just muddling through as we all have to!  There are times I am envious of people who can just 'be' in a relationship without a long back history that keeps coming up and those who can just not 'see' situations that are in front of them.  There is an easiness to life if you can breeze through it with your eyes shut

I do think as well, though (and this is where I am always reminded of a therapist I used to see; she used to say "I'm just putting my objective hat on" and mime putting it on her head) that some of the things you mention about yourself -avoidance, fear of enmeshment, panic when certain things come up, anxiety and so on - are your 'hard wired' bits that will always be there - with you aware of them and working on them but there, none the less, in much the same way that B's food thing and not getting the D situation and wanting to fix things will always be there.  And it might be that yes, you can work on things, he can work on things and it works, or it might be that you both bring up too many other things in each other to work on (because it just gets too tiring to keep doing it).  I don't think there's anything wrong with any of it, on either side, it just is what it is and it is hard to try to have real, authentic relationships and to be empathetic to each other whilst keeping hold of yourself.  So I think you're doing a good job of walking that tightrope and stopping for a breather every now and again and I'm glad he was there after you saw the news about your D.  It sounds like he did a good job that evening xx

[lighter]

Hops:

Rant, defend, and bleat away.  That's taking everything out, laying on the table, and sorting through.  How else to determine what's there, how you feel about it, and what to do?

Only you can determine what's what, and you're certainly going to be the one living with the consequences. 

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Thanks, you guys, so much.

I was deeply surprised yesterday when I was SO distressed about my D, shared the news with B, and he listened and was present with tenderness and peace. He said not ONE word about "fixing it" and was gentle and calming to be around. It helped me get back my equilibrium.

I know part of it is that I snapped back so strongly the other day when he waded in with his Mr. Fixit boots on. But the thing is...again, he listened. He really listened. And took action based on it (or refrained from acting).

That's probably the most encouraging thing about B.

xxoo
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Thanks, you guys, so much.

I was deeply surprised yesterday when I was SO distressed about my D, shared the news with B, and he listened and was present with tenderness and peace. He said not ONE word about "fixing it" and was gentle and calming to be around. It helped me get back my equilibrium.

I know part of it is that I snapped back so strongly the other day when he waded in with his Mr. Fixit boots on. But the thing is...again, he listened. He really listened. And took action based on it (or refrained from acting).

That's probably the most encouraging thing about B.

xxoo
Hops

He does listen, Hops, and he takes on board what you say, which is very good.  And as time goes on he might not need you to say it - and you may find there are fewer triggers and therefore not feel you need to say it - which would be fab   I'm glad he was there to help soothe the news about your D a little; I do think difficult things are more bearable when there is someone standing next to you xx

[Hopalong]

You're right, Tupp.

Today he stopped by after his family brunch and wanted to talk about great biscuits for 20 minutes. And discuss how offensive the new parking garage policy is.

 

If I can remember to value him for his core qualities...and not forget that everyone, including me, will be boring at times.

 
Hops

[Twoapenny]

You're right, Tupp.

Today he stopped by after his family brunch and wanted to talk about great biscuits for 20 minutes. And discuss how offensive the new parking garage policy is.

 

If I can remember to value him for his core qualities...and not forget that everyone, including me, will be boring at times.

 
Hops

Biscuits are great   I just read an article about how men will find excuses to talk to you if they're keen Even if you have no interest at all in what they're talking about It is the core qualities that are most important, in my opinion.  I've been out with guys, and been friends with ladies, who are full of interesting stories and know all sorts of facts and figures and are well informed and can talk about all sorts of current affairs and I've thought, wow, this person is so interesting, I love spending time with them.  And then they've vanished without a bye or leave, or they've bailed when I've been going through a tough spot, or they've said something unpleasant about my son and so on and so on.  Kindness, compassion, resourcefulness are all big factors for me now.  It does take time though, doesn't it, to get to know someone and work out what their core qualities are and I think that's what can be difficult sometimes.  I think you're doing a grand job, Hopsie xx

[Hopalong]

You got it, Tupp.
In a time like this when being alone with very painful news would be miserable, having my ole geezer prattling on about biscuits is okay.

Weird, and not stimulating, but I find it okay. He's who he is and one of those things is domestic, which I think is nice. Something about pottering around the yard together was very comforting.

So if he wants to talk about his mother's biscuits, I'll breathe. Just have to remember that the food obsession is his, not mine, and I can stay calm around it.

I'm grateful for my day off today, and will see B at the end of it.

xxoo
Hops

[Hopalong]

Saturday (as you know) I learned my estranged only child has a life-threatening illness. Treatable, but very serious for someone in her circumstances.

So last night, I'm with B at dinner, still feeling a lot of heartache, and he says, "Sometime tonight you're going to have to smile!" Earlier, crossing the parking lot, he did a little monologue about how he likes to smile and say Hi to strangers, because "Isn't that a nice thing to do?" (I didn't quite grasp he was trying to "manage" me at the moment.)

When he made the comment as we sat down, I said in a straightforward tone, "I don't feel like faking anything," and didn't rearrange my face. We moved on.

Today, I sent him an email about Don't Tell Women to Smile with a bunch of links, and explained briefly why it's a sexism issue. I wasn't nasty at all, or accusatory, just told him many people aren't aware of how it can be seen, and maybe these articles would be of interest.

I got a huge email back expressing "astonishment" and explaining that he is always telling people--men, women, strangers, employees--to smile. Because "it's much more pleasant to be around people who seem happy." I get it. I have sensed for a long time that he is controlling, as well as having classic entitlement reflexes (people need to arrange themselves in a pleasant way because he wants pleasantness to look at). The way he evaluates and "grades" everyone -- servers, his children, his granddaughters, people on his committees, elsewhere in his life. He does make many comments about how people are falling short. It's like, he looks for what to re-engineer.

I think this is somewhat natural for a man whose life experience has been a whole series of situations in which power and authority rule, and someone always has power and issues commands. He has a quiet voice and smiles a lot himself. But he's always scanning for what to "fix" or improve in others.

Anyway, I sent him links to basic articles that explain why, although not like major feminist issues such as unequal pay, reproductive rights or domestic violence....commanding women to smile is a real and symbolic issue. (Research also shows it is stressful and fatiguing, and on the street, a form of harrassment. Mild, maybe, but these kinds of things are cumulative.)

I sent him a longer explanation, and told him how much I appreciated the dialogue.

But I am expecting that this is a stress test for our relationship. If I am not welcome to openly share how I see an experience, or what my take on sexism is -- particularly when I express those opinions courteously and calmly -- then I'll have a pretty big red flag to consider. That he considers it "looking for something to be upset about" is his right. But it's also my right to feel what I feel.

After all, I told him openly when we met that I am feminist, and that issues of sexism and racism are deeply important to me.

Last night, I was feeling heartbreak. And didn't feel like perking up my expression to please him. I am glad that I'm not in Warren Jeffs' old compound, either, learning to "be sweet."

The real shame of it is that feeling already heartbroken, having him respond to it by commanding me to pretend I felt something "pleasant" -- just made me sadder.

So I guess the comforts of partnership work when we're sharing yardwork in silence. (He loves to do yardwork.) But maybe not so much on other levels.

I hope on our upcoming trip out of town (should we make it together until the 20th), we'll have time to talk this through successfully as we have quite a few other things. Maybe we will. Or not...

dunno,
Hops