Heist on Something....

[lighter]

And....
Just bc a man says he's offering what you desire most doesn't necessarily mean that's the offer.  Sometimes he just doesn't have it to give, even if he'd like to, IME.

A smart man will listen to what you say, and use that information, Hops.  His intentions are another matter.
 
If B says just the right thing, it's not reason to throw caution to the wind, ime.  It requires even more examination.

Be careful what you ask for, Hops.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Wow. A lot to digest.
And so valuable.

Tupp, I believe the blurt about love was not calculated. I think he really does have a loose grip on his feelings right now.

And Lighter, I know that words of love don't entitle him to anything. Your point about him continuing to move faster (in saying it) that I want to is well taken. At the same time, I'm not really receiving it as sinister. He is like a great gallumphing Clydesdale trying to slow his own wagon as it's already heading down a slope.

Another odd thought I had (harking back a bit to Tupp's musings about his cues things)...30 years in his company, he was in charge of all sales. I wonder if some of his press, press behavior is kind of wired in -- in the sense that he's driven to "close a deal"? He's approached the world that way for so long he might (inadvertently?) be approaching a woman that way too?

Again, I think he's been delirious with loneliness. I attribute a lot of his speed to that, too.

But my ears are swiveling and I'm working hard to not gloss over too much, and to try to see what is real and trustworthy. He does seem like a person who takes duty, responsibility, and character very seriously.

His woman-stuff, Tupp, the cumulative little comments, is a red flag. And I do intend to take it down and look at it closely.

One thought I had is that I may tell him (six months from now, say) that I would like to undergo serious premarital counseling before making any commitment that would irrevocably alter our lives. I'll blame it on my own track record. I think he'd agree, and that it'd be a good idea.

Late for work...dang it. Thanks, you all, thanks so much.

love
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Wow. A lot to digest.
And so valuable.

Tupp, I believe the blurt about love was not calculated. I think he really does have a loose grip on his feelings right now.

And Lighter, I know that words of love don't entitle him to anything. Your point about him continuing to move faster (in saying it) that I want to is well taken. At the same time, I'm not really receiving it as sinister. He is like a great gallumphing Clydesdale trying to slow his own wagon as it's already heading down a slope.

Another odd thought I had (harking back a bit to Tupp's musings about his cues things)...30 years in his company, he was in charge of all sales. I wonder if some of his press, press behavior is kind of wired in -- in the sense that he's driven to "close a deal"? He's approached the world that way for so long he might (inadvertently?) be approaching a woman that way too?

Again, I think he's been delirious with loneliness. I attribute a lot of his speed to that, too.

But my ears are swiveling and I'm working hard to not gloss over too much, and to try to see what is real and trustworthy. He does seem like a person who takes duty, responsibility, and character very seriously.

His woman-stuff, Tupp, the cumulative little comments, is a red flag. And I do intend to take it down and look at it closely.

One thought I had is that I may tell him (six months from now, say) that I would like to undergo serious premarital counseling before making any commitment that would irrevocably alter our lives. I'll blame it on my own track record. I think he'd agree, and that it'd be a good idea.

Late for work...dang it. Thanks, you all, thanks so much.

love
Hops

I think you are going into it with eyes wide open, Hops, which is a good thing, and you're very honest with yourself, which is also good (and very hard to do, in my opinion).  I think in all honesty you can look at any person's personality and find red flags - we all have aspects and elements of ourselves that don't look great under a microscope - I think it's a case of whether the good bits outweigh the bad bits and whether the bad bits are bad enough to harm someone else or if they're rough edges that can be accommodated or smoothed out.

I think the couples counseling is an excellent idea!  It would help to have some objective, professional input and it's good to be able to say necessary things in that sort of professional environment.  I think it's also a good way to work through things but to leave them at the office rather than taking them home with you - a therapist I used to see used to say I could offload all my horrible stuff and leave it at her office rather than taking it home with me.  It always made me feel very comfortable.  I'm rootin' for ya!  I'm really hoping this turns out to be an utterly good thing xx

[Hopalong]

Looking back on #121 in response to #120...I see myself writing 4 different explanations for him. I don't know if I'm offering him excuses, presenting the kindest version of him to convince myself, or pointing out that forgiving flaws and leading with a gentle interpretation is the happier path. (I do believe the latter but it's a question of degree, and of how damaging those particular flaws would be. Do I over or under react? I'll know in time but as of now, dunno... )

I want to also not rationalize my other observation there, because it could trump all the good stuff unless he's ready for epiphany. IMO, it wouldn't be impossible but would be remarkable if he came to realize that "little jokes" or "casual" denigrating remarks about women he's heard/learned for many years in the company of men.... that these cumulative leaks of hostility toward the female add up to a red flag.

I need the courage to let him know that I take them seriously, and why.  (That women have been hiding hurt and swallowing anger about chronic put-downs and belittlement for a very long time. They're often called over-sensitive if they visibly react to "just a joke" but some eventually realize that these male [or iassimilated female] habits have become their habitat. With its concomitant losses of opportunity, income, safety, aspiration, etc. I'm feeling hopeful I can, and likewise hopeful that he can take it in.

Golden Rule is a pretty good simple plan. Plus, presuming goodwill (that's harder for me). I should just proceed the way I'd want him to if there was an important area he sees as red flaggy that he'd like me to become more aware about. Maybe we could create something pretty good if we coud extend each other that opportunity without fear of contempt.

White Like Me by Tim Wise is such an extraordinary book, that I wish there were a similar one aimed at male readers, to sensitively, smartly walk them through the female experience and its ramifications. Or a range of them. He writes so well about race that ime, white people who read it do not experience defensiveness, shame or resentment....but realization. A softening of opinion through existential discomfort. (Like a wound. Itches, aches, on its way to healing.)

I guess I could go look for a book like that. I don't want a diatribe against men but a sensitive explanation of sexism, aimed not at blaming but at inviting the male reader to empathize. Haven't read any polemics about it for many years, so I'm not up on the best.

xo
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Hopsie, I'm playing Devil's advocate here again at the moment but ........................I'd be kind of wary if there are things about him you need to change to make him more acceptable to you?

He's moving faster than you are
He wants to get the deal sealed and signed quickly.
He's struggling to cope with loneliness (which we all experience and I understand how tough that is as I struggle with it myself - but it means that some people just want 'someone' to fill the gap - which isn't good for the other person).
You've had an unpleasant physical experience with him.
He's made several unpleasant remarks about women (which makes me assume that his wife didn't challenge him on this and therefore may have been quite subservient to him in some way?).
He's sent you racist jokes (which he had no qualms about when you told him how you felt about them).

It could be that he's just not right for you?  Putting aside all the reasons for it - work environment and so on - but just that that means he's not ticking all your boxes (which are perfectly reasonable boxes, in my opinion).  I get that he's nice, charming, responsible and so on - but that doesn't necessarily make him a good match?  I'd bet there are other guys out there who are happy to move slowly, who are comfortable being alone and happy enough in their own skin not to make disparaging remarks about other people, regardless of gender or race (or anything else).

I'm wondering if perhaps your lack of trust in yourself (in terms of judgement - you mention over or under reacting) is making you think in terms of how you should handle the things you don't like about him - instead of making you wonder whether he's just not right for you.  I also wonder if your lovely heart focuses on his loneliness and the nice things he does (I get that, because I do the same) and makes you want to rub out the less pleasant aspects of his personality.

Not trying to be overly critical or put a spanner in the works - but just wondering if the simplest explanation is he's just not your Mr Right? xx

[Hopalong]

I'm glad you play Debbil, Tupp. SO grateful for your perspective and especially your questions!

I really am not sure.

Given his readiness for commitment, over-speedy though it is, at age 68 when this is the first time I've had this experience despite years+ of on-again, off-again dating, I'm reluctant to leap to the Eject button for B.

I think I'd rather stay as mindful as I can and give it/him some more time. I'm not panicking and that's largely because of this team of Amazons! I don't think I'll delude myself entirely and also know that whatever I read here is going to be insightful, caring, and come from valuable experience.

I'm trying to look at it this way, too: I value learning about myself and about other humans. And as to social/political views, I've been in my own echo-bubble for a looooooong time, and my division from so many other people saddens me. How amazing it might be to find new little bridges that two different people could build together, motivated by love? (Not woo-woo romantic, but agape.)

I'm guarding my heart sufficiently (zero impulse to fling it all the way over the bar like I used to nearly every damn time). So far, though it's been mildly bumpy and I've been ever-ready to panic, every time I try to address something with him seriously, he listens attentively and responds respectfully. I don't think he's pretending this. That doesn't mean that he responds by instantly adopting my interpretation or my perspective, but what is new for me is sensing respect, not "tolerance." Noticing how he listens, tries. He may have been unready to unpack his reaction to one of those two offensive jokes completely, but I think we can look at it again sometime. (Already have a Tim Wise book to share if he'd like...).

Otherwise, I might feel as though I were "lying in wait" for him to screw up, and I don't really want to approach him that way. He is in counseling for grief still, with a female therapist, which says one thing about him. Another is that he really loved his wife. At least I believe so.

It's different than when I was young or even middle-aged. Then, I still had youth-ish on my side and could visualize lots of invisible hypothetical mating opportunities coming my way. The truth is, that's much more difficult when you can see age 70 just two years away.

Are these normal compromises older women consider when dating? I can't speak for anybody else but notice that I do feel happier, generally. Just knowing someone is really into me, dreams of a life with me, makes me feel less alone and scared in the world. (I have, you've probably noticed, been really scared of a bleak old age.)

No guarantees and you're absolutely right that I'm not going to re-engineer him either.

I imagine this is going to be a bunch of ups and downs and LOADS of posting here. I hope I don't wear out my welcome. And can't express how much I appreciate this space. It's astonishing.

Thanks mucho mucho,
xxoo
Hops

[Hopalong]

B has the flu, so though we've been in touch by phone, I'm having a week to really let all of it sink in, and try again for good discernment.

I think in unloading so much fear here (which I would possibly have about any new relationship I think, because of my history) I have distorted things perhaps. And I seriously welcome your observations/questions about whether you think I have or not. I'm sick of my own "dunno" but I guess that's part of this process. I know that the offer of a real life-changing relationship triggered pure panic for a while. Despite the fact that I would like it to happen and have spent years in sporadic attempts to find one.

I've used every writing skill I have to spell out my fears of the horrible dominant chauvinist inside the boyfriend. A goblin. I've added his politics/worldview on top of what I think are pretty intense general fears of intimacy that I haven't fully unpacked.

Some things that occur to me that could be important, or perhaps aren't:
--The night when I was chattering nervously and he pressed on...he stopped. Looked at my face, and instantly changed to kissing me in a tender way. Which I reciprocated. It was a moment, and a negative one. But I never described the followup behavior. Does that change anybody's perception?

--The images I didn't like came from his neighbor and though he did deflect my description of the stick-figure "bumper sticker" one as racist (said he was just thinking it was a spoof on the stick-figure "baby/family on board" similar ones). I think he was evading it, because it made him uncomfortable. He wasn't contemptuous or rude, I think he was not ready to face the embarrassing possibility that he had laughed at a racist meme. My question to myself is, given how he reacted to the real intimidation of a muslim man he knew...is he actually racist? I'm not sure it's fair to label him that, and suspect that unlike me (who grew up in a southern community in close contact with many black citizens), he did not. He grew up in a privileged white bubble outside of Detroit. So I think it might be fair to say that, like many people, he wasn't humanizing a mental image of urban black people. I think he should, obviously, but I don't know how fair it is to pillory him for not having gotten it. I also don't sense that he has a "case closed" mindset. Though I could be wrong.

Because I'm who I am I am struggling to reconcile extreme feminism in my own core, with trying to work out which stupid jokes he makes are knee-jerk male-bonding programming, and which could be serious. What I'm contrasting it with is the fact that he listens to me, responds respectfully to my opinions, and has made clear he respects my intelligence. And I do think he's a product of the environments he's been steeped in, just as I am.

The conundrum is that having someone care, be involved in my life, be supportive and (yes Amber) even protective....would be a huge, huge change.

As I listen in silence to whatever's rolling through my brain, I want to come up eventually with a choice that:

Does not--
imperil my integrity
trigger self-abandonment
undermine my principles

Does--
offer me a chance at love
end the loneliness
provide some hope

I think the only way I can get there, to the right choice, is going to be to neither leap forward nor leap away. I think something important is happening between us that has the potential to transform both our lives for the better. I also think that in wanting that to come true, I am wary of my own ability to imagine something that may not be.

Best things I can think to do meanwhile are:
--keep on posting my internal ups, downs, and realizations
--keep talking to my T and weather a crisis of self-doubt in my capacity to judge wisely
--lean on friends I trust to keep me in balance
--discern, discern, discern

If you're fed up with me or thinking I've lost my mind, I understand. I so appreciate your patience. It's been hard to go into this and would be hard to go out of it. But I am committed to ultimately coming to a place that feels truthful, real, honest and as right as I can get it.

I've been alone for a long time and could continue that life, though where I'd end up might be pretty bleak.  I am aware that age has changed my sense of what's tolerable and what's non-negotiable. Am I the oldest woman here? Perhaps some of you either are nearing my cohort or have stories about older women you know who have entered a new relationship at an older age. If you do and would like to share, I'd love to hear them.

love
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Hopsie, I think all you can do is what you've been doing - spend time together, talk, laugh, experience things, see how things go.  Racism/sexism/all other isms - they are all on a spectrum, some obvious, some not so much, some you would be able to brush off, some you wouldn't.  My sister and her partner's family hold views on immigration that I would consider racist - they consider them sensible methods of self preservation.  We just kind of talk about other things so that we don't get into issues that could become contentious.

I think maybe try to put to one side any kind of labeling for a little while.  It's early days.  We all make mistakes.  We say and do things because we're nervous/put on the spot/distracted and so on.  I don't think the fact that he's sent some jokes that aren't to taste necessarily means that he is a racist, misogynistic control freak.  We all have to find out what makes a person tick (both people; he's learning about you at the same time as you are learning about him).  I think possibly what comes is whether the same (at the moment small) issues keep surfacing and/or become bigger issues - and I guess, more importantly, whether you can live with them.

I don't think he, or the relationship, needs to be perfect.  I think it's perfectly reasonable to go for a guy who makes you feel happy, warm, loved but sometimes laughs at things you find offensive or doesn't always see the world the same way that you do.  I don't think being on your own for the rest of your life is an option any of us finds particularly appealing.  Whilst I'd always say being on your own is better than being in an unhappy relationship, I think it's perfectly possible to be happy in an imperfect relationship with a man who has his heart in the right place but doesn't always say or do the right things.  It's all a question of degrees, in my opinion - I think all the time the good moments outweigh the bad ones (and that bad ones aren't eating away at your self esteem, self confidence and so on) then being happy is the most important thing.

I've played Devil's Advocate a few times, mostly because I know it helps me when people throw a harsh, unforgiving light on a situation - it cuts away the excess baggage and forces me to look at things in a really real way.  But whilst I get that B is yes, moving fast, yes, there have been the racist/sexist worry moments, he doesn't seem to be directing nastiness or unpleasantness in your direction at all.  The unsettling moments you've described could be a sign of that further down the line but he's not showing signs of being someone who wants to change you or make you feel bad or uncomfortable about yourself (in fact it seems the opposite of that).

You are very intelligent and very wise emotionally as well, Hops, and I think you need to hold on to that.  You're seeing things as they happen, you're noticing, you're thinking, you're shifting.  I don't see you ending up in an awful situation you can't get out of; I just don't think your life experiences would let that occur.  I think just keep on keeping on.  Either the little things that have cropped up so far will level out a bit - or they'll keep cropping up and become more of a problem.  I am still crossing fingers!

As for being fed up or thinking you've lost your mind, no, far from it, you sound totally together and very aware of where you are with this and what's going on. I think that some people have to have happy endings, right? xx

[sKePTiKal]

Hops, not tired or fed up at all. I just have a housefull of people this weekend. (More on that later.)

I'm about 7 years younger than you. All of your doubts sound normal to me. (Including your worries about red flags - even though I do think they're less significant than you do.) No matter our age, we don't have any roadmaps for these kinds of relationships - and there's no one "right way" for them to be. That makes everything seem scarier because you don't have a real yardstick to measure things by.

You know that you haven't reached the intimacy stage - so you can only trust your own eyes and perceptions/intuitions. And you HAVE to trust yourself if you're going to get to intimacy. It's not optional.

[Twoapenny]

Hops, just following on from what Skep said and thinking about it more this evening, I think it boils down to (a) yes, there's a risk that you might get your heart broken (and there's nothing you can do about that, if you fall in love there's a chance it will go wrong and that's just how it is but (b) I don't think you're going to walk into an elephant trap.  I think if there is something/anything off/wrong/out of place you will see it, recognise it and do something about it.  If you were talking about getting married next week and selling your house to put into his house/business/fancy holiday/whatever I'd be screaming "no"!  But you just won't get caught in a situation like that; you're too astute and you've had your fingers burnt before so worst case scenario the heartbreak risk is real but it always will be, however politically correct someone else's jokes might be xx

[Hopalong]

Thank you both SO much (and Amber, especially for pausing in the middle of the festivities to throw a post my way, much much appreciated!)

I think not labeling for a while is a really good idea, Tupp. I'm going to try to cut it out.

I just took him a basket of comforts and his face was just alight when he answered the door. That was sweet and made me feel good. (Did stand at a distance and treat him as though he has the plague though, which he understood. I Would Not Touch. I dread flu for myself but esp. don't want to carry it to the old folks for whom it could be dangerous.)

On the way out there I stopped at the little business B'd told me about and had a great talk with the owner. I told him a friend had told me about the gun-flashing intimidation he'd had over his photo of his grandfather and he was moved. I just said I'd come in because I wanted to tell him how terribly sorry I was that this kind of bigotry had walked into his business, and we had a lovely talk about Thomas Jefferson's Koran, how much he loves America, and how much it hurt when that man did what he did. But he also said any publicity or "campaign" to support him would likely make things worse for him, which I sadly understood. Sweet man. He said he taught economics for years. I don't know what country he's from but think I'll stop in again and become a friend. Ironically, when I said I wasn't shopping since I don't eat meat he laughed and said, "I'm a vegetarian too."

I gave him my BLM pin and said, this really means brown/yellow/purple/Muslim and female Lives Matter and he said it's the human intention that makes this gift beautiful. I'm glad I did it.

Thank you again, both, for helping me get back in the present and have more faith in myself.

love
Hops

[Hopalong]

So the minute I got back in the car (after already thanking me on his porch) B calls me to thank me again for the "flu comfort basket" and I said you're very welcome! When I get home he calls again and thanks me again (I didn't pick up as I was feeling smothered) and this time offers the week getaway in one month's time. When I called back I said, I thought we'd agreed we'd take a long weekend before committing to 7 days together and he said yes, but the timeshare dates have changed so now the only week available is a month from now.

He seemed annoyed that I didn't instantly agree but not nasty about it. Anyway, for me it involves: losing a week's income, boarding my dog who's not used to it, worrying about the elders two of whom are very frail right now, and ... feeling pressure (theme) to go faster/farther than I'm ready for. I got the impression (not sure) that after feeling so happy to see me he jumped on the phone with his brother (with whom he shares the timeshare in Hilton Head) and nailed down an open date.

So I wrote him all the things that give me pause and suggested a long weekend away instead.

We'll see how that goes down!

Oh, he also mentioned while touting how wonderful it would be that he and his wife used to go there too. So I said in my email, I think if it was a favorite vacation with your wife it might be healthier for us to do something different together, what do you think?

Then again, it's nice that he's found a "free" vacation for us, which reduces $$ pressure on us both.

All that said, I dunno. And we'll see.

love,
Hops

[lighter]

Hops:

How does the "free" time share option reduce your costs?

And....
It's a red flag when a man tries to change your no into a yes, ime. 

You said yes to a long weekend. 

No to a full week.....you explained why it was important to you.  Has he forgotten?

He didn't ask you to change your answer.   He assumed you'd do it without any discussion, which makes me wonder wether or not he understood your position in the first place.   

 He's disappointed you aren't as eager as he is..... disappointed doesn't mean anything in particular, imo.  It's how he handles his disappointments that will tell.


As for the Vaca location.... anyone would prefer somewhere fresh, and new, away from reminders of B's late wife, imo.  I don't judge him for wanting to share a familiar place, and stories that honor his late wife.  I'm sure it will do B good to share his pain, and memories.  The thing is, I wouldn't want my new relationship to be about his rebounding hard, and heavy around that chapter of his life.

I'd like to feel that pushing him out if his comfort zone would be healthy, and pay dividends without end as the relationship forms.

I remember my late husband booking dreadful hotel rooms I refused to stay in.....we ended up changing to hotels we both enjoyed, and we didn't argue about it.  I was worthy, and had I held my tongue I would have simmered and hated every minute of the entire trip.

  I held my tongue a lot in that marriage, but there was very little reason that I should have been uncomfortable in a disgusting situation we could easily advocate for myself without getting defensive or aggressive or emotional.  It was simply a fact that my comfort counted, and I had the expectation we could both be comfortable.  Your comfort factors in n too.  I thought that was established, but clarity is required, imo.

Your B wants to vacation, forge an intimate relationship with you, and build a new life.

If his saving a few dollars is the priority in all this, I have to throw another red flag on the field.

If he must take you to a place he took his wife, I'm not quite sure what to make of it.  Is he willing to try a new location?  If not, why?

You have a chance to learn a good deal about this man very quickly as you advocate for yourself. 

Stay upbeat, and eager to get on with whatever you're comfortable with, Hops.  I'm hoping your positive attitude will lift him and carry him through to understanding and compromise (without resentment.)

I'm still one finger typing on my phone, along with a house full of family, and wish I had time to edit.  Sorry for such lengthy posts.

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

Quick reponse, Hops, as I slept NINE HOURS last night (that never happens) and I'm running late (will update on the other thread lol) but...

Wonderfully sweet and caring of you to take B a goodie basket and his reaction (at the door) was very sweet, too.

Enormously loving and gracious of you to go and speak to the man who had that horrible experience; spreading a little love, in person (particularly to someone you don't know) is more valuable than any kind of material or financial gift anyone can ever provide, in my opinion, I'm sure that guy went to bed with his heart a little lighter that evening.  You're such a sweetheart.

B with the phone calls, changing plans, wanting to holiday where he took his wife - ditto what Lighter said and to be honest I think having to keep putting brakes on and explaining things after you've already clearly stated x, y and z is going to get tiring quite quickly.   With the holiday - his timeshare, shared with his brother, that he used to go to with his wife - I'd be inclined to avoid (at least for now) and go somewhere new and neutral.  Cheap and cheerful, doesn't have to be a million miles away and if money is/becomes an issue - then no need to go perhaps?  Deffo keep us posted xx

[sKePTiKal]

Well, I can see the practicality of a "free week" but it's really clear he hasn't completely recognized what a week away means in your life. Doesn't mean anything big per se; just that because it's not a big deal for him to go away... he doesn't see how that impacts you. "Getting to know you" stuff.

I would EXPECT him, now, to continue pressuring you to move faster than you want. It seems to be a pattern now. I'm suspicious that he really IS attempting to fill a grief hole - that "bereft" bit; the space I also recognize sometimes that was filled in my life by Mike - now. Doesn't mean he doesn't truly like you... just that he's seeing an easy path forward to what he thinks he wants. You CAN be wiser than him, you know...

And in this case, even accepting that some people don't handle alone time and the deeper loneliness emotion well... you can stick to your decision to go at your pace. What's the worst that could happen? He could get annoyed and think about maybe finding someone else. That wouldn't be such a TERRIBLE outcome for you... it would validate that it wasn't the right time, with this particular person. Maybe this is what your first argument is about... but at that point, you have the opportunity to make it abundantly clear in simple terms that you aren't going to be persuaded by any means to move from that "rule"... and WHY - because the why is very important about and to you.

How long have you been communicating with him now? Seeing him? I ask, because you can be a immovable object - it's your right - about how fast you are comfortable proceeding. Yes, it entails risk that he'll move on to choice #2. But perhaps this won't happen. Maybe he'll man up and realize you're no pushover on certain things... and respect that. It's good to demonstrate that early in a relationship, IMO.

It may also engrave it on his brain that he's not now dating his late wife... and that comparisons aren't fair at ALL. That THIS relationship is going to be a different thing. (As it can't help being.) Remember me, telling Mike he had me confused with some other wife? Yeah; it was necessary to remind him even after 10 years together. I never saw that as being his attitude toward women - always, without exception; it was more that he was responding based on prior experience with another person - another wife - and not seeing that I am different.

If you don't feel comfortable with what a week's getaway means in actual terms for you - gently say you really can't, given your obligations. Regret may be appreciated too. But you know, us older ladies have actual LIVES... that we're not going to throw under the bus because someone brings us flowers and is nice to us. We don't mind ADDING to our lives... but what we have that we made for ourselves, we're loathe to throw away - even AFTER "happily ever after". It's part of our identity... what makes "us" US.