Heist on Something....

[Twoapenny]

Hopsie, it's like Snakes and Ladders, you get a good experience and go up the ladder ten paces and then hit a snake and slide back down again

My thoughts, for what they are worth (and with a disclaimer that I'm tired so might not make any sense) are that I think his comment was insensitive.  Asking you if you wanted to talk about the situation or chatting about other things or offering to stay home if you'd prefer and so on would have all been good.  Asking you if you're going to smile when you've had such awful news and are so powerless to do anything about it - no, insensitive and unnecessary.

I get the notion about it being seen as a sexist/feminist issue but also wonder (and apologies if this is blunt because I don't mean it to be) if you felt you needed to justify not wanting (or being able) to smile with lots of 'proof' that you didn't have to rather than just being able to say 'no' and not feel the need to explain or justify it?  I'm thinking back to times when I used to go through similar things with my T over home education; I got slated a lot by all sorts of people and would find myself going to great lengths to 'prove' it was a good option and that research showed that.  My T would say "why can't you just say 'it's what I prefer' and leave it at that"?  And she was right - I felt I had to justify my choices rather than just expecting people to accept my choices or leave me alone if they didn't want to.  It just sort of reminded me of that when I was reading through all the things you sent him - I don't know if there are similarities in the two situations?

I can get him not seeing it as a sexist issue; lots and lots of people don't see the same things as being sexist/racist etc.  Which again made me wonder if it would be clearer to explain that you, personally, are going through a very tough time and smiling wasn't on the agenda.  The sexism angle - which I do get and agree with - seems to depersonalise it in some way? And make it more of a general issue, when it feels like it's a more personal issue (in so much as he doesn't seem to be getting the situation with your D and how deeply it affects you).   I don't know if that makes sense. I hope it's not complete gobbledegook xx xx

[Hopalong]

No, that makes TOTAL sense, Tupp! Thanks for this question.

I think I resorted to sending him calm, analytical information about the issue (as a part of sexism) because to react personally is more threatening to me. Makes me feel much more vulnerable. I retreated to my safer space, which is observing and being analytical about sexism and racism.

To feel and be vulnerable about every instance of sexism or dominance I observe personally just feels shattering. The more analytical approach is less painful for me. My intelligence (which he often comments on) protects me from condescension, paternalism, that stuff.

Inside, little Hops is shrieking: A little respect, please? You entitled controlling asshole? (But I sense sharing that might not be, errrr, productive....)

 

xxoo
Hops

[Twoapenny]

No, that makes TOTAL sense, Tupp! Thanks for this question.

I think I resorted to sending him calm, analytical information about the issue (as a part of sexism) because to react personally is more threatening to me. Makes me feel much more vulnerable. I retreated to my safer space, which is observing and being analytical about sexism and racism.

To feel and be vulnerable about every instance of sexism or dominance I observe personally just feels shattering. The more analytical approach is less painful for me. My intelligence (which he often comments on) protects me from condescension, paternalism, that stuff.

Inside, little Hops is shrieking: A little respect, please? You entitled controlling asshole? (But I sense sharing that might not be, errrr, productive....)

 

xxoo
Hops

Yes, I get that Hopsie, makes total sense to me (and have similar myself at times).  So I suppose my question if I were in your shoes now would be - is it B that makes little Hops shriek and feel vulnerable, or men in general, or people in general who don't see/hear/recognise what you're going through?  Because I suppose that would have some bearing on the situation. And "you entitled, controlling arsehole" - I'm laughing but sometimes I think that is productive   Short, succinct, to the point Protecting you or him in that situation? Stifling true feelings for fear of offending?  Or not handling it the right way?  I only ask as these are all things that go through my mind when dealing with difficult situations (and I have to say these days "Get lost, arsehole" is starting to feel like a more effective way of dealing with things rather than me having to put myself through the ringer trying to figure out the right way to do something, lol).  Isn't it all so complicated?  I hope this bit irons out/sorts itself out.  You are getting a good workout in soul searching and working through things, at the very least   I'm sorry the comfortable support when tidying the yard didn't carry on to the next get together xx

[Hopalong]

It's definitely because it's B, because I've allowed myself to start hoping about a whole future...so it matters much more that he commanded me to smile (didn't ask, more or less declared I had to do it).

I really did tell him on our first or second date, in a very direct way: feminism is deep in my core and issues of sexism and racism are so important to me that I've studied and thought and learned about them intentionally for decades. I was really clear.

So if he's dismissive of my courteous explanation of a common example, then that's pretty red flaggy.

And I'm hopeful, but not expectant.

Hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Hops:

B feels what he feels, and in his heart he feels entitled to it, bc he is.

What he's not entitled to is his expectation everyone will feel and do as he feels and does.  Honestly, it's hard to imagine him smiling through his own troubled child's life threatening illness he had no control over. 

You must be careful you don't smack him down hard over the smiley stuff, bc of strong painful feelings around your child....stuff?

They're..... separate, but presenting keen opportunity to work on his communication style, expectations, and entitlement....but gently, with clarity, and awareness that everyone is entitled to their feelings.  Not just him.

Easier if everyone avoids taking everything personally.  Feelings aren't right or wrong, they just are.

I hope you feel heard, and B does too.

Light

[sKePTiKal]

Tag teaming off Tupp's brilliant insight. Even if it's not quite on target for you Hops.

I heard what you said Hops, about using the sexist angle to explain why you didn't have to smile and pretend to be cheerful, when you're clearly not feeling it. (100% with ya on this, for a lot of personal reasons about honoring our own feelings.)

But I wonder if maybe you're using that as "experts say..." justification for just being YOU? Like presenting evidence or a court order, that gives you permission to turn his request to smile down? (nitpicking, I know - but the parallels to what Hol's going through are still intense for me) Because you are important enough; your feelings are real enough - it's life, to have feelings; that you don't have to pretend anything to suit anyone else. Pffft. I'm going to dismiss my own idea/nitpicking... still waffling over that...

but I do feel that it's important for us to claim our power to just feel how we feel and to hell with what other people want us to be. And just stand on that claim and declare it - and go on. It's kinda of a boundary to me. Especially because of enmeshment issues. No one can tell me how to feel. F you and the horse you rode in on, if you're trying to. The only way some of us can get to a "solution" - or a reconciliation to - a situation... is just let our feelings run their course. They always do.

Resisting the feeling, stuffing it, stifling it or avoiding or pretending otherwise... JUST.DOESN'T.HELP. Especially, when it's a feeling from the "grief category".

And neither does the number of dark, overcast days we're having this spring. It's been a really long "winter" around here and I'm really starting to feel it now.

[Hopalong]

You guys ARE brilliant. Thank you so much.

Lighter, I particularly appreciated your calm suggestions to not come down hard and to not take it personally. Your post helped me imagine moving through this while not losing my balance. Of course you are right. B is probably feeling all sorts of things that are not pleasant about me calling him on that comment. You're right that he's entitled to feel however he feels, as am I. Hmmm. Entitlement is just such a tricky tricky devil.

And back to Tupp's insights about me kind of going "academic" in my response to B (well observed) instead of just feeling, responding or not, being real and centered in the moment, without the intellectual approach. I guess I feel that I'd better use whatever tools I have, because his sheen of power, will and entitlement is pretty strong. I feel braver in the brain than in the heart. And maybe what it means is that there's something about that exchange that's rippling and reminding and waking me. I hope I perceive well but keep my balance. (Perhaps there's something about a tall, powerful man trying to suppress me--which is how I see it, although it's a MILD example--that's very triggering in a personal way. Not just because of our culture...but because of my brother.)

It'll be painful if I need to let go of the shared life dream. But his impatience for me to "get it over with" or "go back to Stepford smiling now" was concerning. B does have many years of experiencing the world and others catering to him, and that's the result his successful life has produced. He relishes being catered to, being served, and always has an extra demand/requirement/tweak for a restaurant server, a store employee, and now I gather...unsmiling people anywhere. They're disturbing his bubble of pleasantness. As it seems my pain over my D has done.

Ahh, well. Cloudy spring, as you say Amber. I know all will change because that's what life is. And if I can be open and curious about how it goes, instead of fearful, that'll be better.

Nice spring freshet just opened up.

love
Hops

[Hopalong]

Well, called B to ask if his day of golf worked out -- and because I didn't want this little tempest to fester. We had a long talk. He doesn't agree at all, not a bit, with any point I raised or any article I sent him raised about telling women (including strangers) to smile. I explained how I see it. Then I told him, "My heart's hamburger right now" and he said that made him understand how I was feeling that evening.

I mentioned gently, you know, if we need to become friends instead, that's okay, and I won't stop caring about you. He seemed really agitated and said "I've been through a lot with my wife." I said I get that. Then he said he felt a lot better and kept trying to end the topic. At the end of the call he was clearly agitated but wanted to schedule our next date. I could tell he was drained (by my emails, his reaction, this conversation) so told him don't worry about the calendar right now, just have a good sleep and we'll talk soon. I asked him gently, "You okay?" and he gave a big sigh, but said yes.

An hour later I heard him on my answering machine saying, "I want to thank you for our talk tonight. If you were here right now I'd want to take you to bed, not to make love, but just to hold you and appreciate you. Thank you for that call." He sounded emotional and genuine. I don't really understand but was glad he wound up feeling good about it. My truthful reaction was I am glad I wasn't there, as he always wants to express everything physically, I can feel physically smothered by him, and I sometimes wish he would understand things and be able to verbalize them, not just act them out. But that ain't who he is, and I'm still in the midst of trying to discern how that would feel long term. We're both getting older.

Mystifying. It was a difficult confrontation (the whole thing), but I'm not sorry it happened. I felt I hung on to my integrity, without anger, but also without apology.

I don't know that I'll ever feel entirely comfortable with him but I don't think he's misogynist. (Unthinkingly sexist but not misogynist.) It's just his whole way of seeing other people -- as beings to be managed and corrected by him because he always knows what needs correcting -- that troubles me. He may not intend it to but it feels arrogant. I am strong enough to push back, most of the time. But I wish I didn't have to. I wonder why he doesn't understand much about how he comes across? I guess he's been so busy and active that he hasn't spent years with his head jammed up his navel the way I have. I have thought and introspected so much that I think I just have a whole different reference of experience, my personal encyclopedia. And he does too.

So that's the latest.

Men are strange. Women, of course...not at all....

love
Hops

[lighter]

I think he's lacking a good deal in the emotional intelligence department, Hops. 

I'm so dealing with that very thing right now.  The proximity problem.  The physical, mental, emotional boundary challenges sans any awareness at all....just me, hyper alert, hyper aware, hyper vigilance.... and I'm drained over it fairly consistently.  The introvert in me flails to re charge.

And the Archie Bunker re runs.....oy.  In some ways it's familiar.... So much like my father.  Sometimes it's protective of me.  Sometimes..... it's just proximity challenging. 

Some people have very little awareness.

Reassurance and attention seem to make it better, ime. I try to remain curious.  I try to walk in other people's shoes.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

((((Lighter)))).

Reassurance and attention make sense. Thank you.
I'm paying attention to what happens next. The tempest
in a teapot may have sunk us or friend-zoned us. Or not.

I hope this day goes more gently for you. If the man/men
who are on the island with you are not more considerate now,
given what's happening with your father, well....blockheads.

And your father is an Archie Bunker type? One can love all
sorts of people anyway, barring viciousness, in my experience. Not
your fault and in a what-he-was-taught way, probably not his. That
does make it harder to grieve but the cosmos can make sense of it all.

Hold on to your self-care and don't be perfect, hear?

Hops

[Twoapenny]

I think he's very different to you, Hopsie, far less introspective and I think he's done a lot less soul searching.  I do kind of think that people who've been through a lot in their lives often end up having very deep thoughts and feelings about a whole range of things, because they've been exposed to so much.  Some, of course, go the other way and block lots of things out, but I think you've both had very different life experiences and they've brought you to different places now.  I do wonder if someone more sensitive or more emotionally aware would be a better match for you.  I kind of get the feeling that B is/would be happy with a lady who is nice to him and is happy to snuggle up, whereas I get the feeling that you kind of work on a deeper basis than that most of the time.  Whether you can meet in the middle I don't know.  I understand the not wanting to go into those later years alone (I'm aware of it now and I'm 44 so I can only imagine it getting stronger as the years go by).  It's very difficult, particularly with the situation with your D at the moment as well.  I'm sorry there is so much going on for you to cope with right now xx

[Hopalong]

Yes. Tupp, I have been thinking almost the exact same thing.
A perky lady who cooks, makes out whenever he feels the mood, and doesn't trouble him with difficult thinking.

I'm struggling but suspecting maybe I need to decide soon. If I leave B, I can still hope (however faintly) to still meet someone my age who IS emotionally available. If I don't leave B, I might have shelter and help (if he provided that for me) in older age, but no connection.

Invited him over last night and he kindly helped me re-hang washed curtains.
I made a nice meal (except the sausages in the veggie stew were vegan, which he noted).
I don't make desserts so he had butter and honey on the amazing bakery bread which is his favorite.

We watched a show I'd been eager to introduce him too and he loved it. Two episodes.

But I didn't feel chemistry, didn't feel like much necking, did feel he didn't give me enough space. He sits right in the middle of my couch and that kind of forces me (and pooch, whom he enjoys) to cram into a small space beside him. I made him move over. I was less affectionate because I felt smothered AND because I'm battling resentment.

He knows what's going on in my life, both with Ngent and my D, and doesn't ask (unfair, he did ask something about Ngent). And I'm keeping up a cheerful front because the whole message over the "smile" discussion that I took in was: "I find it much more pleasant to be around people who seem happy." It's the seem (his unintended reveal) that is haunting me. It's making me think thoughts like...he wants a Stepford woman (who snuggles) and is not interested or able to know me in my reality. That's entirely okay with him but not for me.

I tried to be pleasant anyway but I know he felt rejected and was pissed. Doesn't show it much but I sense sulking.

Just as with my D, I don't have to make any rapid decision. He may even make one before me. But I'm feeling as though I can't deny indefinitely how unsatisfying (and likely ultimately hurtful) this lack of connection and real communication feels.

xo
Hops

[Twoapenny]

I agree, no decisions necessary, particularly at the moment with your D situation going on as well.  I do think if you're with B then there's DEFINITELY no way you will meet a more emotionally attuned man.  It is hard, but I am just hoping there is a man out there somewhere wishing he could meet a deep thinking, caring woman   The having to be cheerful all the time has caused me more pain in my life than I care to remember.  I don't think it's a good habit to get in to xx

[Hopalong]

OOOPS.

I may just have finished things.
Went for dinner with a girlfriend with whom I have one of those rare, you can call me at 3am, kinds of understandings. (Very similar to this VESMB!). And I caught her up about B, and drank 2 glasses of wine.

So I get home and call B to ask how his Sunday's gone. He's doing taxes. But then he gets going: "I remember with my wife's family, how nice it was that when there was a leavetaking, they would stand on the porch and wave until we were out of sight. You closed the curtains and snapped off the light before I was even out of the driveway."

O
M
G

I finally let loose. I told him with kindness that I do care about him but I feel he wants something SCRIPTED, and that's not how I felt. I was happy to have him here but I was really tired and heading for bed. He goes, "Well it would be all right if you didn't feel like it or forgot to do it sometimes, but I think it would be a nice way to show....."

Blah blah blah. SMILE when your heart is breaking. STAND out in the cold and wave at me in order to make me feel good....

Jesus. I told him "I don't feel comfortable with this at ALL because it feels very controlling. You have script for how you want me to behave, rituals you value...and this feels so controlling to me."

He doesn't get this at all. Not even a little bit.

I say, "I've had a lot of raw things going on this last week. I was just calling to see how your day went. And you offer me another script of the kind of performance that makes you feel good. Like me...smiling on cue."

And he goes, "Well I didn't mean it that way. But I need to get back to my taxes. I hope you have a wonderful evening."

Oh
shit.

I think it's gonna end.

Pretty quick.

The level of disconnect and sense that his compulsion to control and script....are beyond me.

I kept saying, "I'm not angry with you at all. I just think I can't fill the roles you have fantasized for me."

Oh dear. But I'll be surprised if this isn't over soon.

 

I felt authentic in my conversation with my gf. The contrast was overwhelming. I just called another friend and narrated the B conversation and she said, unprompted, it's just like Stepford Wives. YES. Poor B is so driven by his engineeritis, and in my view completely lacking in insight or curiosity about how he comes across with people close to him (which may explain the strain he mentions in his relationship with his own D and grand-Ds) that he has absolutely NO IDEA why scripted smiles and scripted farewell rituals (that maintain his happy bubble) come across as controllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllling.....

Yikers, yikers. At least I just got to laugh about it. With friends. I just can't see how I can comply, going forward. I think we're probably two steps from the end. He's just not going to get it. Or even...begin to get a fraction of it. And I don't see how I could sign on to a lifetime of that much of a lack of insight or understanding. Even with a basically sweet man who's been a comfort in many ways.

Right now, the balance is tipping...apart. And so be it. No regrets and no villainy. Just what...Tupp, you've described. Maybe he's just not the right guy for me. And maybe I'm not the right girl for him. And that's okay. Sad but okay.

love
Hops

[Twoapenny]

It is sad, Hops, but I'm glad you have the foresight and the honesty to see it.  He's on a different wavelength to you, I think.  He's gone through the motions of trying to see things your way but he doesn't really get it, in my opinion.  Your heart has been mushed open again with the news about your D and he's critiquing your sending off performance.  No.  Not right for you.  What is good is that it's shown you you can do this - you can hold yourself, stay calm, be assertive, take the risk - and back out again if you realise it's not right for you.  You deserve to be happy xx