End of the Road Farm

[Twoapenny]

Skep I was about to post and say keep in touch with him and then saw that you had   Something sticks in my mind from a few years ago and I think it applies in many cases.  I was messaging with a teenage girl who'd posted on a home ed forum that she was having a rough time, parents weren't very supportive etc etc.  I contacted her to see if she was okay and if there was anything I could do to help and we stayed in touch for quite some time after that.  I became concerned that my being in contact with her might be preventing her from seeking professional help - she had quite a lot of problems, was self harming, often talked about suicide, but any suggestion I made with regards to her getting help was met with a reason she couldn't do that.  A psychologist friend of mine said that quite possibly email contact with me was all she could cope with at the present time - she wasn't ready to engage and deal with her problems so the email contact was her way of doing that - which was fine by me.

It just occurs to me (sorry, that was a bit convuluted!) that maybe for you and the Viking no commitment. no expectation email messages are what you both need just now?  Both bereaved, both busy with your lives, both kind of thinking it might be nice to have someone - but maybe just not quite now?  So I think all the time you both enjoy chatting (and it is nice to see someone's contacted you and to be able to chat about your day) then I think all the good.  Maybe it will develop, maybe not but I think it's a nice way to reach out without putting yourself out there, if that's not a practical option at the moment.  It's nice to have 'someone', however it may be xx

[sKePTiKal]

Tupp, that's what I'm thinking too. Just let it be what it is.

Since he doesn't write long messages - the software at the site won't let you make paragraphs; annoying! - it could be he's more comfortable on the phone too. I've noticed people seem to have a distinct preference. The long silences are because he's on the computer all day for work, and just doesn't turn it on, after. I can definitely understand THAT.

Neither of us "needs" anything special in our lives, is the sense I'm getting. Companionship, even of this sort, may just be the bit we're "missing"... an extra set of hands, even... and it seems we can do this well enough. Remember I said it was a couple months, before he even started using "dear" and other affectionate terms? LOL. It's charming in a way, that he didn't feel entitled immediately, to "possess" me or claim me like some guys do. And we don't flirt with each other or tease each other, either. Just not on that level yet.

I know I'm reading into things a lot; filling in the gaps with my imagination too. I think that's probably a natural part of this process - in this medium. Face to face, one gets to "see" if words & actions match up a lot easier. It takes me a long time to trust someone, as I give a nano-inch at a time. I knew Mike for YEARS before we realized we were attracted to each other. And then it was like earth-magnets... LOL. Viking is a fisherman; so he's patient too.

So for now, we're just online friends. Getting to know each other. And the bar is set so low... neither of us would fall very far or hard if it just doesn't work out. But it does seem interesting enough to me, to give it some more time.

RAINING again here. Plumbers rescheduled yet again. No one's digging in this mess... and the grass is so tall out in the field, that I'll need someone to bale it. This is putting a definite kink in all my outdoor plans. Time to punt and go in another direction.

[Hopalong]

(((((Amber)))) Finding a successful formula for online dating is a really important thing. When you find it, you will be able to purchase the state you're in, plus an extra mountain range.

That said I have a couple practical ideas...if you haven't already, getting a second email address that does not include your name is helpful. Say, Hopsadoodle @... etc. Anything neutral sounding, as long as it excludes name or place references. (I recommend non-flirty names, too, as it's also come in handy for sites that require email, but may add me to lists I wish to ignore.) Then, I set the new email to forward all emails to my main email address. Gmail does a pretty good job of filtering the dreck first (Promotions, Social, Updates) so I tend to get only personal (Primary) messages forwarded.

Then, when you first sense you'll enjoy email chatting, give a person that. I just explain I don't enjoy chatting through the site and seldom check it for messages. Truths.

The other thing that's important (not germane to you in this instance) is willingness to stop a correspondence if and when you want to. I've known women who feel obligated to continually answer emails and explain, over and over, in a similar way to answering the phone before cell phones.... I know, that's not where you are, you're going in the other direction. But saying No without tension has helped me; I immediately filter their email afterward just in case.

But right now, you're wondering what you're saying Yes to. I hear you and I feel uncertain whether this is the road to happiness. For myself too, though I'm still signed up on a site.

Is there a local fire station you could volunteer at? A rescue squad? A school? A hospital? Any way at all you can meet more local people who actually live where you do? Scary but...if you focus on volunteering, you'd meet good folks and friends, at least. Never wasted...

xxoo
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

I choose not to get out a lot Hops. I'm extremely uncomfortable - or trying to take over & manage - in those kinds of situations. Not a good formula for making new friends. I'm not afraid of people, mind you... but if I'm out, I have my own "game plan" in mind and I've just never "played nice" in groups. And I'm incredibly BAD at chit-chatting with someone in what most people consider ordinary situations. Completely different, when I'm behind a keyboard.

And, if I don't do the work that needs doing here at home - it just doesn't get done. And it NEEDS to get done - and become manageable. Just not there yet. So the casual nature of this type of interaction is actually perfect for me. At least, that's my excuse for now. LOL.

I'm not having a problem with how things are. I just don't need a social life, like most people do. If I have a few scattered gatherings throughout the year, here at the farm... or a single person coming to visit every so often... I'm just fine. LOL.

[Hopalong]

I believe you, you introvert, you. 

I just hate the idea of you being lonely. Even introverts get lonely.

Off to work (picking up, might have an interesting new customer to help...).

I'm so grateful we can talk about the mating stuff, so openly. I just had
a nice man write me and he lives two hours away on a lovely lake and my
internal monologue is...impossible distance. How wimpy is THAT?

It's one of the biggest challenges, in my head. Distance. Moving. Etc.
I was freaked at the possibility of having to move, say a mile from my house,
with B!

xxoo
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

LOL. I seldom get truly "lonely". But yes, I now what you mean... before, I'd have said I never get lonely. 2 hours? Piece of cake - since you've not met him face to face yet. And probably don't know yet if you want to. You might surprise yourself what you might be willing to do - for the right relationship. And who's to say he wouldn't be interested in being the one to move? BUT YA HAVEN'T EVEN MET YET, kiddo.

Present moment thinking, Hops. What is NOW... not "what might be". I think it'll help when things do come up. For the time being, you're figuring out what you like/don't like... and I think doing that with the goal of marriage - always there - puts too much pressure on you. You're looking for a best friend more than anything else this go-round so just start with that "target" and see if that works.

I also like that we talk about this openly. Between self-doubt, old fears coming back to haunt us, the trust issues (both of ourselves and others), and KNOWING we have aging bodies... oh vey! This is way worse than being 16. LOL. But look how far we've come! Taking chances on enhancing our lives... wow! I think I'll look for a slinky purple polka-dot dress, come hither shoes & hat... and start the painful process of core training. LOL.

They call me..... Bobcat Woman. (Sounds better than cougar.) My superpowers are attachable/detachable. Meet "Rock & root Grapple", Auger, and Pallet Forks... and "Bucket". LOL.

Hell, I wish they'd just call me and whisper sweet nothings some times. LOL.

I wish I knew when my knees gave up the ghost. It took all DAY to paint a really small shelf, that's been on the list waiting till I had nothing better to do. Today was that day, thanks to MORE RAIN. I had to grab a folded towel to kneel on. I'm ready to break out a rain suit and try to mow and plant in the rain. It's not like my yard is anywhere CLOSE to looking like well-tended sod.

[sKePTiKal]

I need to spew all this out - get it off my head and hopefully, that'll let me maintain the boundaries I'm trying to "mind" and not go all Mama Bear - Tiger - Dragonlady - Berserker Viking.

Holly & Matt are unravelling in a giant hurry. I'll spare y'all the complicated back & forth reasons why this, that & the other thing has caused Matt to form a narrative of their relationship and Holly in particular, that has convinced him she's a liar and has probably cheated on him numerous times. Matt got home before she did on Friday - and the puppy had chewed part of the journal she was using to work out a lot of her relationship feelings, on her own while she was crewing the sailboat over the winter. Matt of course read the bits of paper - and proceeded to read more of the journal as well.

That has fueled this particular delusion of Matt's that she has/is/and is going to cheat on him (fear-insecurity based) yet AGAIN. It's not the first time in the last 8-9 years they've been together. And it's definitely NOT TRUE. Holly spent Friday night with a girlfriend so she could attend one of the "end of production" parties with her co-workers; left it open if she would come out here for the weekend. Matt wanted to her to go away - so he could "think". Friday night, they did talk and he said she could come back home now - but she'd been drinking and spent the night away as planned, anyway. She went back Saturday afternoon. She said initially he was calm, and they talked about things rationally.

And all day yesterday he was back to yelling at her, asking for the ring back, just having her around makes him pissed all over again, and he said she should be looking for somewhere else to live. She has been letting him get this out of his system... and not engaging with him. And he's said some truly off the wall things to her - that are way out in la-la-land. Still, she's staying centered. Finally he left because he couldn't be around her anymore... so she called and we talked. She can't talk to me with him around - very small house; and I'm obviously the devil. (Not the first time for that either.)

She DOES have places to stay; obviously she feels like her feelings aren't safe around him - but has to remain in Baltimore for work for at least another week. But she is GOOD with this being the end of the relationship/living arrangements because whatever this script Matt has in his head - he's been trying to force her into - reliving some past experience he had. Neither of us knows what that might be, except for a previous girlfriend, but I recognize the signs. Did it myself ya know. And I think there might be something prior to the girlfriend that's stuck in his head. Holly's OK with this ending - because she's been trying to get this to work for years and providing ways for Matt to participate in the relationship - and he doesn't. I guess that's scarier for him, than living out this script/pattern again. It matters NOT to him, that there is nothing going on for him to be angry about. He believes there is; she's a liar - lying about cheating on him. And NOTHING has EVER happened like that.

My advice was to leave before he gets home, if she can arrange it (has laundry to do) - so she can let her thoughts and feelings calm down - and obviously not be there as an irritant to escalate the situation anymore than he is trying to do - before they go to work tomorrow.

Then, she will need time to regroup and process things out of her head... and with the work situation not having an easy transition to a new schedule... figure that out too. She can come here. But it's not definite that she will. She has money to do whatever she wants at this point. But she's a lot calmer than I am about this! Rational too.

I'm going to bet he unconsciously calls her by his former girlfriend's name before all is said & done.

Holly knows she can't live with constant emotional abuse - or with someone who's not emotionally accessible to her. But she's been trying to engage Matt enough rationally that the lightbulb will come on, for him, that how she feels in this circumstance matters too. Two-way street kind of thing. And she had grown so much in the process that she's not freaking out. A little worried she'll internalize his criticisms of her and believing them... but I reassured her that I thought she'd grown past the point that this would happen. The only time he's like this - is when something triggers this script in his head and Holly's journaling of whether she wanted to continue being the only one working on the relationship triggered it for him - again.

Only a pro can fix this with Matt working hard, himself. She can't be objective enough - and it isn't her job really - to help him fix this. But she sees it too. She has limits to what she stand, too. But she doesn't want to experience that. She's said several time in the past couple years that she's already pre-grieving the relationship's end. So she's way more clear in her own emotions and feelings than I've ever seen her... about something that is intensely emotional for her.

I keep telling her she's doing good. I'm confident in her "toolset" for dealing with this. And that the things Matt is saying are not true. Just so she hears it. Where things go from here - is all going to be up to her and she can't even deal with it until production and her job end. It's just physically, logistically not possible. So, until Matt becomes rational again it's just better for her not to be there.

[lighter]

Oh, so sorry to read that. 

I'm not surprised they're at this point, but still.... very sorry.

Holly needs to get herself clear of that anger, and process, as you say.  She's tried her best, and done what she could... it just isn't working. 

It made me extremely anxious to read Holl would BE subjected to anger, and false allegations with zero way to address the truth.  There's nothing for her left to learn through this..... it's just time to go, IME.

If you need to be big bad scary viking mama bear, then you BE that, Amber.

You have my permission.

Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

Thankfully it's not needed this time Lighter. The littlest Viking has grown up - and she's not angry at all; more relieved that they now how something real between them - ironically enough, that there's no way forward with the relationship.

She won't revert to self-destructive tendencies; won't go off the deep end. I'm really proud of how much she's learned about herself, processed about the past, and worked her way to being mature and adult about things like this. The only thing keeping her from being completely whole - was Matt's criticism of who she is. (no, I never told her that. I didn't have to - she's a quick learner and learned a LOT from her few months of therapy.)

She said it's a relief; and in more ways than one. She has to make decisions about work that Matt was getting in the way of. She has a ton of friends and a network of coworkers. She knows that she can come stay with me as long as she wants - but she may not want. So, I'm standing back and letting her take care of herself. She's staying with a really good friend.

This has been YEARS, literally, in the slowly agonizing, life-negating making. It'll be a couple days before she realizes she can breathe again.

[sKePTiKal]

Phew. That's better.

As "mom" - and witnessing some (not all) of this behavior and how Matt targeted Holly's biggest weakness/trigger points for self-doubt - and watching it all escalate the past couple years - I was always worried about how this would end. Because it was abundantly clear, that Holly was out of patience for for being alone in a relationship and being on the "child" end of a parent-child "correction of thoughts, feelings and actions" regime... and not feeling SAFE to just be herself around him.

She just dug in her heels, and wasn't going to end it herself -- and then have to deal with Matt making it "all her fault". She knew leaving was an option; but she didn't want to leave him - because she did enjoy being with him, when he wasn't stuck in running his "script". We talked about double binds, some. She was clearly relieved to come out here alone and just throw off all the paper mache bits & pieces of behavior that Matt insisted on... and just re-connect with her real self. Breathe freely.

I believe Matt could fairly easily resolve his issue. He's smart, insightful, intuitive and - except for the script - he is kind. But he's refused every and all suggestions of going to therapy with Holly. He thinks it's a GREAT idea for HER, mind you... because her values are (according to him) "wrong"... and her personality even... isn't "right" either. So, I've been the sounding board all these years...

and have been emotionally close to the situation. Right up to the edge of the boundaries... tightrope walking it. Holly is WORTH IT... because I've watched her grow out the abuse she took from her Dad, over the Amy situation (he finally recognizes it after all these years)... get out of a "fatal attraction" marriage... and survive on her own and become a well-rounded, giving and now, growing wise woman. My mom role has always been to just give her the space to BE HER and try on things, grow out of them, make her own decisions and choices.

And I know the lengths that frustration and anger can drive her to, when she's trying to control those intense emotions and "do the right thing". There is a reason she's always been known as a "force of nature". So I've been on edge for a LONG TIME... wondering how this part of the Holly & Matt story would play out. I can stop holding my breath too, now.

-----ETA:

Yep; just heard from her. She's says: that after 9 years of hearing him say "I can't live like this" (whatever that means)... and her loyalty (and honesty) isn't good enough... then F you. She's sorry his feelings are hurt, but she's not responsible for them... and she's tired of jumping through hoops trying to be good enough to be loved for herself - and him always finding fault with it. Some of the things he's said to her, that I've witnessed... are the kind of things not even a PARENT would say to a child, because it's so invalidating.

I think she found her inner Viking again.   

[Twoapenny]

Ah, both Vikings, Skep, you're like two peas in a pod.  I'm sorry she's going through it but glad she's doing it, if you see what I mean.  I think most of us get to a point where enough is enough, even though it's tough at the time.  I do find it odd when one person becomes quite certain that the entire fault lies with the other one.  I get it if there's an addiction problem or some such thing involved but in these sort of situations, where one person won't even begin to entertain the idea that maybe they could change some aspect of their behaviour to make things different, it really isn't on.  I hope Holly is okay and that peace starts to rein supreme now

[Hopalong]

I'm so sorry you're all going through this, but I hear you must.
Going through can be excruciating, and then once on the other side, you get to breathe.

I remember how deeply painful it was to divorce.
Such a huge huge loss.

These days if I faced it again I think it would not be as hard.
First thing is, I would never again say the sorts of things in vows that placed me between a rock and a hard place.

Some people DO a Jekyll-Hyde thing. Not necessarily monstrous, but different enough from the person you thought you were wedding to be a massive shock and crushing disappointment.

I just will never again set myself up for self-loathing by taking vows that do not allow me to love myself responsibly. Got a long-term discussion going with religion about that...nobody winning....

xxoo
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Thankfully, she couldn't commit to marrying him. So no legal stuff to deal with - just logistics of moving. She has been thinking about this turn of affairs for a LONG time. I'm interested to see what she comes up with for a "what's next"... and how quickly she can shrug off the effects of that kind of invalidation. (She has been fighting believing it for years now.)

I don't think I realized how much energy I was spending thinking/worrying about that situation. Now that it's over, I feel totally drained. But I saw a Scarlet Tanager this morning - the pair, I think. Looked it up, since I didn't rightly know what kind of bird it was other than BRIGHT - LOL.

The heat & humidity are back too; and weather page says tree pollen is still high - which I don't quite believe after all the rain we've had. That combination leaves me feeling like a limp, 3 day old noodle anyway. So I'm amping up the self-care for a few days... and dipping my toe into the work I have still waiting on me. I'm still sorting out driving/controlling the bobcat... so trying to do a little each day.

[lighter]

Amber:

I remember when I finally gave up trying to fix, or understand my first husband even.  Once I gave up, divorce was easier.  Moving beyond was possible. 

Sometimes giving up is where healing begins.   I'm glad Hol made peace with letting go.

Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

Feeling much better today. It's cooler and promising more rain. I have several outside tasks that NEED doing. I have a little more energy too for this.

The more I think about some of Matt's reactions to what Hol & I consider "normal" people stuff, at an intimate level... the more I really think he has something like my poison arrow to work out. And it's not the old girlfriend. She was just another "victim" of the same script. I hope his mom can convince to see someone and work this out.

Holly, meanwhile, sounds like she's starting to worry about him. Which is natural - but kinda conflicts with her resolution that she's not responsible for his feelings. I think she can figure that out by herself. I know I make her sound like a YOUNG woman; and she does give that impression in person. Very playful. But she IS 40 now, experienced, and knows her self. That's one of the things that was painful trying to work on the relationship with Matt. He kept trying to "correct" and "improve" to his liking - her self. But when Holly would ask for specific concrete "baby step" things from Matt... she coulda been talking to a wall. Yet, his conscious rational mind would agree to it...

anyway, I don't have time to sort Matt out. But I know Holly will be processing this for awhile. Once she's not working 10-14 hr days. Time for mom to shut up, back off, leave her come to her own conclusions... and mind my own business. Until she's ready to dissect it herself.