Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Double Jeopardy; A; WTH is the matter with women. Q; What is Men, Alex?

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lighter:
Mud:

Sorry you don't feel supported, so here's my "practical" advice....

IMO, you have a much better chance of reconciling with this woman IF you accept her just as she is, and where she is.  Perhaps with gratitude that she's still in your life, even if it's not what you'd hoped or planned.

IF you can do that, perhaps she'll feel safe enough to re think her position, and try again, but I do think it's her move to make.  In every sense.  To bring up.  To discuss. Everything. 

I'm sorry you're feeling judged, and not heard.  Maybe if you re read...?

Even if you pout, or sweetly "try" to change her NO into a YES.... you aren't honoring her NO, IMO. 

I don't think anyone said you tried to force anything.  You're a very nice person, and I think you're an honorable man with good intentions.  That's not what's up for debate. 

What I'm talking about is accepting what she wants, even if it's contrary to what you want. Supporting it, even.

I don't think it's about how "wounded" she is either, but then I don't know, bc I can't know, and what you asked for was opinions not certainty, and the Amazons answered.

I think we would have done more quiet hand holding, and validating if you hadn't asked, but you did. 

It feels like you keep circling back to points you've been over, at the expense of considering other views, IMO. 
That's OK. 

Even if you're right on target, we still have valid points, and they matter.  Just as your views, and points matter: )

Lighter

sKePTiKal:
Mud, sometimes when a relationship ends there just aren't any conclusive "answers". There's just hurt. And that elusive "hope" that given time, another try at it becomes available. Sometimes, that hope is the cruelest part of all. It's magical thinking; of a sort that happens in the grieving process.

My D has been breakingup for 4-5 years, from a 9 year relationship. The particulars don't really matter and wouldn't make sense in context of your situation. But what it all comes down to, is that eventually it got to the point of "I'm not doing this anymore"... and "I CAN'T do this anymore". The reason/issue in contention wasn't anymore major than in your situation. So I've been "treated" to being the sounding board for how my D has processed this over the YEARS, to the point that my patience is tried every single time she treds over that same puzzle-path, trying to find a different answer than what she already has come up with - and is having a hard time accepting. And I KNOW how it hurts her. She's cried like a little girl grieving on my shoulder enough times... asking if she's a bad person because she can't see things the same way he does. Because it doesn't make sense in HER value system.

She is trying to solve the puzzle with rational mind, not emotional thinking... though we've made progress on it's "language and vocabulary". And there is no logical explanation, within context of the relationship OR the individuals, about why this one minor issue in contention became the B&W, life/death negotiating point. Except personal belief values... and POSSIBLY (I couldn't know this if I tried)... a subconscious conflict in D's partner that interferes with his otherwise empathetic, understanding and rational processes.

Being outside the relationship, I think it's likely those belief values could be "informed" by a very specific, past-history, subscious emotional conflict, since the same issue was the reason for the break-up of his previous relationship. (This doesn't apply to you at all; completely different circumstances.) Where I'm going with this... is that one party doesn't KNOW consciously the reason "I can't do this anymore" and doesn't even face the possibility that maybe it's MORE or something different, than the reason they tell themselves it is.

And that leaves the other party hurt, confused, wondering what on earth they did wrong... and why such a little thing became the "sorry, gotta go now, I don't want to see anymore, I'm too hurt, angry or whatever" issue.

So, I can understand you're grieving this ending. It's abrupt and doesn't make sense to YOU. Any way you try to look at it. And the fact is, IMO... there isn't any solace, or acceptance, or living with it comfortably with an option to "try again" later... that is going to make the grieving any less onerous. All you CAN do, when you're ready to do it, is just let    it     go. And put one foot in front of the other, and live your life. You're not closing a door on her, or the possibility of a relationship - but you will be caring for yourself, best way you know how and giving her the chance to do the same.

I find it very difficult to justify putting one's life in limbo, hanging out & hoping that you get another chance at a relationship. I don't believe you're doing that, so this is just a caution. We all want what we want - and WHO we want. Until we move on and let the past go.

I'm very sorry your dream-girl took a flyer on you. We can analyze it 6 ways to Sunday and never come up with a different explanation than what she gave you. So hugs, mud. It's never easy but you'll get past it.

Hopalong:
I'm sorry, Mud.
It's hard to be direct and honest with a friend and use the right tone and vocabulary that in some way could possibly be helpful. Your anguish cut through so I wanted to be extremely clear. Just please, forgive the "political" vocabulary. It does get in your way so I should have tried to be more creative and use imagery instead. That was lazy of me. If you could, please try to understand that empathy and insight and revelation and epiphany and new awareness are the point. Words like entitlement, or feminism, are only shorthand for what real people have learned as real hearts broke and real hopes rose or died.

I am so, so sorry, my friend, for the pain you're going through.

In practical, what-to-do terms, I think Lighter gave you the most important advice. In terms of any fantasy future do-over, your most difficult and most important choice at the heart of it all is:

Let her choose to bring it up in future if she wants to. Don't ask. Nor even hint.

She might; she might not. But utterly letting go of the idea of instigating a new or re-relationship is the best thing you can do for both of you, imh-ho.

love,
Hops

lighter:
Mud:

The pouting over her schedule WAS your attempt to change her NO into a YES.

After she broke it off, your trying to change her mind about that was you trying to change her NO into a YES, once again.

If you try to speak to her about considering this relationship again, without her bringing it up first, then it will be about you trying to change her NO into a YES.  No one's questioning your motives.  We're staying away from motives.  We're focusing on one things here.

I can't imagine someone as passionate and committed as you not interjecting your opinions when she's expressing her opinions, esp when you've gotten used to discussing future plans, and collaborating. 

You want what you want, and you want her to want this wonderful future also.  She DID want it.

 The thing is, even if what you want is the very best thing for her, and you both, she has to make up her own mind about that, and feel respected for her views, IME.   

No one is trying to convince you that this relationship/woman/your way of relating with her is WRONG.  It can be mostly right, and have fatal flaws, IME.

If two things were true in this relationship, it was close to perfect, and there was a fatal flaw, then can you consider what that flaw was?  Could it have been a missing or weak building block you weren't aware of, or didn't want to see?  She stopped building the dream for a reason.  Was the base unsteady?

What if that's true?

Honestly, the idea of falling in love with a man who has the time, and ability to support a woman in her life, job, and emotional world is an amazing thing to contemplate.  She wanted that.  You offered it.  You both agreed it was an amazing life you looked forward to.

IF your pouting over her schedule was what tipped the scales here.... IF that's true, and you believe it is, then maybe your acceptance.... your ability to honor her NOs is an issue here.  

This isn't a man / woman thing, btw.  It's a people thing, and everyone should be able to honor what others say, even if they don't agree, or like it, IME. We can be dissapointed, and still honor someone's NO, IME.  We're sharing our experience, from our POV, and I'm thinking that's an amazing POV when you're trying to understand your female friend's POV. 

You don't feel heard, and I'm sorry about that.  Truly, I am.

I can honestly say I'm feeling a bit voiceless myself on this thread, and so I repeat what I've been saying,  trying to feel heard.  It's not important in my life that you hear me.  I'm afraid it's important in yours, and I do care.

If I'm right, it doesn't make you wrong.  As I said, two things can be true at the same time.  I'm sure you had an amazing connection, worth saving, with this woman.  It's my hope that comes to pass if at all possible. 

Nuff said. I release all expectation, ((Mud.)) 

Lighter

mudpuppy:
Well I guess all I had to do was complain and you guys would start talking sense.  :)
Thank you for all four of those replies. That's kind of what I was looking for from the start.
I of course hope she will approach me some time in the future. She is the one who initiated the relationship the first time so it's not impossible. I don't know how likely it is but it would sure make my life easier. Had I kept my big mouth shut after we broke up it would be a lot easier for her to do so.

However, I guess I don't understand how just talking to her about it amounts to trying to turn her NO to YES.
Before we went out and while we were breaking up she mentioned how she didn't even want to try a relationship while fire season was on, which ends mid November. And she twice told me, during the breakup, she thought the idea of trying again later to start over and do it the right way was a good idea.
 So I'm not clear on how just asking if her NO has possibly turned to YES amounts to some disrespect or attempt to change her mind. I'm just trying to check if it has changed. Seems to me it might change but she be unwilling to let me know because of the awkwardness of the situation. I know I'm reluctant to ask her because of that. What if we're both willing to try again but we're both too chicken to be the first one to let the other know?

mud

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