Double Jeopardy; A; WTH is the matter with women. Q; What is Men, Alex?

[mudpuppy]

I don't think I'm dismissing relevant info. I'm just not sure what it means. I can't assess it until I know more.
We broke up without me fully understanding what happened. That might be because she's a borderline and has done this before.
But it might also be because she was simply scared of being hurt again as she was before and ran away rather than try to work it out. If the latter then there's a good chance she is the love of my life; or the second one anyway.
I'm encouraged that she hasn't displayed any other typical borderline behavior and has a great reputation with people who know her.
I'm worried that she broke us up over what seemed like very little and seemed to look for reasons to justify it including some that weren't too accurate.
If we come back together in a few months I will at least now be on my guard and will not walk goofily into a buzzsaw like Gomer Pyle, as I did last time. Nor will I have unrealistic expectations as I did.

mud

[Hopalong]

Some of the toughest experiences I've ever had have been rejection without me fully understanding it. While humbly acknowledging my imperfections, I always based it more on some confusion about the other's behavior or thought processes or damage (which Only I could heal), etc etc etc...

I think it's because I truly believed if they had a convincing ARGUMENT (logic that would satisfy me) for why Not Me, then I'd find the rejection easier to accept and could let go of the feeling that there would be an Act 2.

Later, I came to believe that acceptance (whether I fully understood the Whys or not) was what would be healthier for my emotional and spiritual growth. I had felt ENTITLED to an explanation or justification from the object of my love that would satisfy me and soothe my excruciating rumination. I wasn't.

When I finally got it, it helped more than I can explain. I am so grateful I ran across the following at a time when I could be receptive to it:

It's always okay to ask the universe for what you want, as long as you release the outcome.

Not perfectly, and not every time, but "release the outcome" has saved me a lot of suffering and was actually an opening in the hedge onto the path of self love. It's not compassion for self that keeps one attached to something outside of our control. It's self torture.

She loved you. And then she didn't. It's painful as hell and it was the outcome.

I wish you a lot of healing, Mud. I hate hearing your hurt and I've been there. More than once. Later in my life, I stopped doing that. And friendships got happier and my expectations for relationships less intense. "Less intense" eventually turned into a positive for me, when for decades, white-hot romance had been my goal. Now I just think, white-hot burns. 

xxoo
Hops

[mudpuppy]

I mean this in the nicest way but why do we so often try to extrapolate our experiences to others? Especially when we don't know one of the parties at all and the other only through the innertubes?
I don't know what the outcome is because I don't think we're done. I could be wrong and acknowledge that, but I actually experienced the relationship. How do people who didn't, know what the outcome is or that there is already an outcome?
A desire to help and be supportive is extremely admirable but I'm not sure assessments based on our own experiences are either.
I don't even know that she loved me and then didn't. While we were breaking up she said she still did. I suspect she still might but her fear dominates her love because fear and withdrawal equals safety whereas acting on her love equals risk and the possibility of being hurt.
I know a not insignificant number of people happily married who by the standards I've heard expressed here should have moved on after they broke up the first or second time or decided they didn't love each other or weren't right for each other.
I don't know what the future holds. That's what makes it exciting.

mud

[Hopalong]

Probably because I over-identify with your stories, Mud.

Doesn't mean I know you or her or you-two or anything, really.

No offense intended, and I hope your excitement becomes contentment.
You deserve it.

love,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Well, mud... I think you've settled this issue about as well as can be expected - without shutting the door on the possibility of a relationship in the future.

I'm guilty as charged, for self-referencing my experience a lot. It seems to me, to be a softer way of suggesting a helpful idea or empathy with someone going through something. Female conditioning, perhaps (old school style). But I've also seen this backfire with fireworks and become an obstacle too.

In particular, I had to keep that tendency on a really short leash with my D and witnessing her process her "break up blues". She has no inhibitions about telling me to stick that **** where the sun don't shine! LOL. I guess that's one of the reasons we mostly get along pretty well with each other, she and I. I don't take offense, recognize my transgression, and we move on... and the opposite is also true.

[mudpuppy]

No offense intended, and I hope your excitement becomes contentment.

None taken as always, Hops. Because I'm built primarily to love a girl completely I'm afraid that's the only way I'm ever truly content. That's possibly not a good thing but it doesn't seem something I can change...or want to.

I'm guilty as charged, for self-referencing my experience a lot.

I think we all do. It's human nature. I think I'm a little more cognizant of it than many because of my experience when Mrs Iggy died and people didn't know what to say and so said what they knew, which was their own experiences and trying to dovetail them to mine. Doesn't work too well usually.

It occurred to me this morning she may not even have broken up with me as an individual or for anything in particular that happened directly between us, hence her making up things about the relationship to make sense of why we were breaking up and telling me to delete the texts of when we were together because they reminded us of how happy we were.
As I think about the things she said and how things went, it's more like she decided that when I showed her I was less than perfect and we hit  our first bump in the road,  the idea of being with someone, anyone, has less appeal than the idea of being alone.
Who knows? Time will fill me in eventually.
Thanks for listening guys.

mud

[mudpuppy]

Just listened to this really good talk on Borderline PD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to5qRLRSS7g

and to be honest my girl not only has none of those 9 traits even mildly, I'm not so sure I don't have some of them myself.
So I'm even more convinced she's just a girl who, like all of us, has been wounded by life and is just trying to figure it out and not be hurt again.

mud

[lighter]

Mud:

You puzzle me.  You're so centered, as a general rule.  The emotional male/female stuff seems to bring up what appears to me to be racing mind kind of stuff for you.  Not criticizing, just observing over a period of years, with compassion.

Sometimes it feels like you're in your own way.  Sometimes we all are, frankly.  I get that.  Maybe I recognize it, bc I do it myself.

Anyhoo, I see benefit to researching PDs, as you believe they relate to this gal, but I also can see how focusing hard ON her might not be your optimal position for attracting her back.  Or sustaining connection with her either.

I'm saying, focus on yourself to understand if and how you might be in your own way, in any form.

Don't take that as preachy, please.  I want you to have another live of your life.  I really do.

Lighter

[mudpuppy]

Didn't sound preachy and I appreciate the attempt to help.
My mind races when I don't understand why something happened. Until I understand, at which point my mind no longer races.
Unfortunately I have a hard time understanding complicated people and most single women in my age cohort tend to be pretty complicated because most have been through difficult and damaging divorces. There are very few widows my age and most gals who have never been married by now often demonstrate why in a fairly frightening way. Not all but most. So that pretty much leaves me with divorcees who are toting some kind of wound and it is a very different wound than what I'm sporting.
I simply asked the one before this one out one time which sprouted three and a half years of weird avoidant behavior from a someone who had previously been very friendly. We never even went on a single date and I still have no clue what her problem is but don't much care and haven't for some time, except that I'm very good friends with her dad which makes it a bit awkward.
This present gal is even more confusing. One minute she's trying to decide whether we should elope or have a conventional wedding and literally on the same weekend is deciding to break up with me and the only thing that occurred was I said I was disappointed in how the weekend had gone because she had to work for half of it and literally as I texted that to her also noted it was probably me and not her fault at all. To me that is something I apologize for, as I did the next morning, and it's over with. If the situation was reversed that is what would have happened. I can't imagine what kind of process leads someone to break up a wonderful relationship over something like that. And so i don't understand.
It's important for me to determine that process because if she is a borderline I don't want to attract her back because it will only happen again. OTOH, if she's just wounded then I would like to give it another try, if she wants to.
I'm more than happy to take the blame when I'm an idiot. I was after we broke up and I told her I was and apologized for it. But I didn't really do anything wrong in the relationship itself other than pout a little bit for a few hours. If that's a legitimate reason to break up a relationship that is headed toward marriage then I might as well hang it up right now because nobody can meet the standard of never doing something dumb. And even she realized that wasn't really a sufficient reason which is why she made up reasons when I pointed out how little sense it made and what I thought the real reason is.
As for me, I have done quite a lot of work, as I think I mentioned. The breakup let me finally realize how much grief and even anger I still carried from Mrs Mudpup's death and how much UI still was looking backwards. It also let me see how broken my relationship with God was.

But the bottom line will always be a great relationship was ended and it didn't even make sense to the person who ended it. Since I am not that person then of course my main concentration is on understanding her. If I had broken up a wonderful relationship for no clear reason then I would be concentrating on me.

Our connection wasn't sustained because instead of sitting down and resolving what should have been a small problem she isolated herself for five days and made up her mind without talking to me.

As far as attracting her back. I'm going to let things lay until Nov or Dec when her schedule lets up and we've both had time to heal and just ask her if she wants to talk to even see if she has any interest. Meanwhile I pray for wisdom and patience. Not sure what else I can do.

mud

[sKePTiKal]

mud, I'm coming up on 3 years of widowhood now. But I'm WAY further behind you as to other relationships. Friends are filling in some of the simple human connection need for me, that energizes me to being open to more people. Especially when "nothing bad happens" and I have fun.

Somewhere early in the process of grieving, a 16-ton anvil of realization hit me that I'd not lived any of my adult life alone, to speak of. (Short periods or doing things on my own, yes... but not just living alone.) And I was finally at a place where I felt ready to tackle that, explore it... and ENJOY it. For what it is. So maybe a year or two of that now; and I can finally recognize how I feel when I'm "lonely".  I've had to face a lot of my fears - big & little too. Break through my sacred taboos of "I can't"... and figure out how to do it by myself. What "it" might be.

The little bit of "online dating" I explored made it clear to me that I was in no way shape or form ready to "date" - and the truth is, I never really "dated" anyone I had relationships with in my life. The concept is like some kind of ritual "game" where the rules are always changing and each person has their own set of rules unique to them. I detest those kinds of games between people; always have. It always seemed morally "wrong" to me to play with another person's feelings this way. Either you have a connection or you don't; either you care or you don't - or you care, but not enough for a certain level of intimacy. And you're able to TALK about it together. Doesn't make you "bad" but I don't need to dance that dance till I drop to decide if we have level of connection anymore either. Or put up with ill treatment or anything else that bothers me just to find a connection with people. At my age, life's too short for that crap!

On the other hand, after age 50 or so (it varies a lot)... the logistics of a relationship get a lot more complex. It's more like a corporate merger with all the details that need ironing out. Especially with families and assets and lifestyles.... and on & on. People already have the life they wanted to build in most cases - or the reasons why they don't, are justification for further investigation and caution. So it's not like a young couple setting out to build a life together - weaving each other into it. But that is the pattern we have in our heads for what a relationship coming to blossom should be like.

I think that genetic-societal-historical pattern (I call it "white picket fence syndrome"; some others call it the "Ozzie & Harriett rule") kinda gets in the way of us older folks knowing just what it is we're looking for REALLY and what "rules" or forms that relationship takes, that actually do make sense for people with developed lives and autonomy... trying to make a connection that is valuable and fulfilling for both people.

No one who knows me, would describe me as a "hippie-dippy free spirit"; they'd choke & pee themselves laughing over that oxymoron - but when it comes to relationships and patterns/expectations we have engraved on our brains... I really think we need start to bending those rules... patterns and even design something totally suitable for the situation borrowing this from over there, maybe a little of that... and oh, THAT might be fun... and throw out the expectations left-over from our 20s and do things differently. Throw the rules, patterns, and picket fences to the four winds and just deal with things as they are, as they come up... and surf the wave.

(no, I'm not wearing purple; at least not yet!!!!      )

[Hopalong]

I didn't really do anything wrong in the relationship itself other than pout a little bit for a few hours.

Mud, I believe what happened during those few hours was that a switch flipped within her. I don't believe it was a process, but a woman's sudden intuition about what would be unbearable for her, emotionally. (In honesty, I'd have had the same chandelier flip on. Not because you're "bad" but because that kind of stuff triggers a powerful desire to flee. Not that you intended it, but to the recipient of "pouting", it can feel like emotional manipulation instead of mature communication. Red flag.)

I don't believe you were "wrong." I reject the whole idea that you are "bad." But FWIW (hey, it's free) I do think the key to understanding what happened is not in her personality diagnosis or her reasoning process or what she said before that moment or after it. Not in focusing on her. She experienced in her own inner world whatever she experienced, you can't make her un-experience it, and it may not have to do with all these different causes you're guessing. You are guessing.

I think the key is in YOUR internal climate, your thinking, and your mindset during those hours. Your only alternative is to dig deeply in therapy into what "pout a little bit for a few hours" was all about. It may be very uncomfortable but I think that's where you'll begin to know yourself better. Be on your own side and treat yourself with compassion as you explore it. Don't call yourself "dumb" or "idiot" as you do this work; self-loathing isn't the point. Insight is. I think you're not quite there yet.

love,
Hops

[mudpuppy]

I really think we need start to bending those rules... patterns and even design something totally suitable for the situation borrowing this from over there, maybe a little of that... and oh, THAT might be fun... and throw out the expectations left-over from our 20s and do things differently.

A lot of the baggage I brought with me was exactly that. I'm not the same guy I was almost 30 years ago when I married Mrs Mud anymore than the new gal was Mrs Mud. I felt a false sense of security in the relationship because of Mrs Mud that didn't exist with this very different lady and didn't guard my heart or hers very well because of it.

Mud, I believe what happened during those few hours was that a switch flipped within her.

That's exactly what happened. My hope is that with the passage of time maybe she might consider turning it back off.

I think the key is in YOUR internal climate, your thinking, and your mindset during those hours. Your only alternative is to dig deeply in therapy into what "pout a little bit for a few hours" was all about. It may be very uncomfortable but I think that's where you'll begin to know yourself better.

I already know what it was all about. Without going TMI, I expected to spend a little "quality time" with her and she was too tired to do so. So I pouted selfishly and acted, yes, like an idiot the next day by complaining how the weekend went.
I did the same thing at the start of the relationship  with Mrs Mud, but she was patient or unwounded or something enough that she let me realize what an ass I was being and accepted my apology. After a couple of stupid episodes I got over it, just as it would have with this woman had she let it. I suspect it may be because I'm still insecure in the relationship or perhaps I'm feeling too secure. Not sure which but it's a short  lived and mostly thoughtless phenomenon. As soon as I'm completely comfortable in the relationship it goes away. And I'm only talking about a time or two in any event.
  But the point remains, not only did I say, as I was explaining what the problem was, that I figured she had done nothing wrong and I was just being a fool, I immediately recognized I was and apologized.  Now, when I have made certain promises of love and connection and vows of affection for all time to someone, unless I find some dead bodies in her crawl space or some live ones in her bed I'm not going to push her away  the first time in the relationship she says something wrong and declare it over without at least talking to her and trying to resolve the issue.
  I can work on myself til the cows come home but I'm never going to perfect myself and so eventually we would have hit a small bump in the road as every relationship does and I suspect whenever that happened the result would have been the same. She seemed to be waiting for the first sign I had feet of clay to confirm I was going to be like the other guys.
  I freely admit I made a mistake and I freely admit, being a fallible human being, there is no chance I will ever be in a relationship in which I don't. I also freely admit I overlooked a few things she had said that bothered me too but that's generally what you do if its something minor in the larger picture of how great the relationship is.
  She didn't, so even if I grind myself down to the nub on the great grinding wheel of self improvement the reason we broke up will still exist where it started, somewhere within her, because what happened was not worth breaking up over absent that pain she admits she harbors down deep in her soul. I love her and so would like to see if we might try again in a way more likely to help her heal from that. If she doesn't there's nothing I can do about it. But because I still love her I would be betraying how much I care about her wellbeing  if I didn't try.

  I may not be communicating things too well but, while I am not even slightly reluctant to admit what a bonehead I can be and my many faults, I treat the women I love amazingly well, especially compared to the rest of the guys out there. I am hopelessly romantic and brought her roses all the time of only the colors she loves best, I wrote her a lovely poem [well I think it was lovely anyway], I always opened her door and held her hand and left her little notes, even one so corny as three post-its with an eye, a heart and a picture of a ewe. I was always cheerful and fun and loving and sweet and kind. She had a laundry list of projects around her house she wanted done and I was eager to do them. And I don't mean like hanging a picture. I mean like a new laundry/dog room and a new bed and bathroom and garden and driveway. I love doing that stuff and there is very little I can't do. I cooked for her [and I'm a very good cook] and did thoughtful little things all the time and even fell in love with her old cur...and I mean literally, her dog is a Mountain Cur. We loved doing the same stuff, like kayaking and hiking in the mountains. We disliked the same stuff too. Our texts back and forth, from both sides, would put a diabetic in ketoacidosis in a heartbeat. She had picked out May 4th next year as our projected wedding date 10 days after our first date which was May 4th of this year. Two days before we broke up she was thinking about eloping because she didn't want to wait for a wedding. We were perfect for each other in a way that very seldom happens and something that should not have broken a relationship that well matched up did and it was not me that let that happen. And it did it utterly without warning sign, fight, blow up or anything else.
  So, if I want to discover what happened so that if we do try again we have a chance of making it this time, I'm pretty sure I have to understand the person from whom sprang the reaction that was out of all proportion to the stimulus. If we by some chance get it right then we will both have a great life together so it's worth taking a swing at. And I'm not sure I'm taking much of a swing at things if I concentrate on me who not only didn't break us up but didn't really do much wrong.This isn't meant to sound conceited or hard but it seems to me to be just recognizing reality; I have a track record of treating a woman, whom everyone who knew her considered exceptional, like a queen for 23 years and keeping her exceptionally happy. I know how to love someone and how to make them feel loved, respected, honored and secure. My present gal does not have that experience and has picked and given her hand to two bums to marry and then runs me, a non-bum, off for almost nothing. If we're going to have any hope of solving what broke us up the first time we better do as Willie Sutton did and look where the money, or in our case, the issue is. I have wounds that are healing. She has one she shields from healing and only briefly acknowledged. If she won't open up to let it then nothing will ever work. I can't do that for her obviously but I'd love to be at her side if it helped her to open up and let God and her work it out together.

mud

[Hopalong]

the reason we broke up will still exist where it started, somewhere within her, because what happened was not worth breaking up over absent that pain she admits she harbors down deep in her soul

I respect and appreciate your honesty, Mud. Truly. I'll just carry on bluntly telling you a thought or two which, of course, you can evaluate on your own...all are discardable. And despite how firmly I express all this, I'm not thinking it matters. The big ole universe rolls us along with it and we have our age-old human arguments. I'd still want you in my lifeboat.

What I hear are two things:

#1 You declaring repeatedly that her personal choice to break up is invalid, or not justified. That's not respectful. (Prostrating yourself by calling yourself an "idiot" doesn't provide any insight into what you're actually doing--refusing to respect her autonomy.) Not just pretend respect, but the kind of respect for another you can feel all the way inside.  You can dismiss another's experience, even with the most detailed explanations, but that has consequences. She sensed your desire to override her choice. Her No. To her, that WAS worth breaking up over. You can't decide that for her. You can judge it all you want to console yourself, but that doesn't make this thought pattern right or good for you. It won't help to decide she was just wrong because she's broken.

#2 You identifying that she has pain in her soul may be accurate. But who anointed you the Certified Healer of This Particular Soul? Maybe it's not your place. Ouch, I know. (I was Florence Nightingale on steroids in a couple romances so I'm being brutal hoping to spare you a repeat.)

Back to the pouting. Again, I truly respect that you're honest about what it really was. You wanted intimacy and she did not, hence you sulked and thus made her "pay for it" for hours. Raht thar. That's entitlement. You acknowledge too that this happened more than once.

I can't identify with you this time, but with her (easy enough). If someone pressures me even for a kiss I'm not wanting, I'm soon outta there. It's the pressure. Cajoling, begging, remonstrating or retreating in a childish way are all pressure, but you've minimized those behaviors nonstop with cute euphemistic vocab like "pouting" or saying you were being "dumb." Double respect that you fessed up. When a man pressures a woman in that way...it is related to everything about women's experience in this real world that will cause many to retreat and lose trust. Even if you'd never force or rage, there's still an edge to it, of entitlement. And I know, without doubt, that you didn't WANT to convey this and ruin your hopes. You just...did.

If you ("you" hypothetical man,not Mud) are going to badger me and sulk when I refuse, I won't want to be with you any more. Period. My body belongs entirely and without exception to me. I do not owe any man anything physical, even a spouse. That shared gift has to be utterly voluntary and every time. (I'm preaching to myself because in some relationships including my last one...I forgot this truth about myself. When I remember it, I'm okay again. Not angry --I know what this culture teaches men, it's hardly their fault when they can't see it-- nor a victim, just clear. I value my inherent freedom and being pressured is bondage.) That clarity feels more beautiful than anything.

Yielding to pressure isn't freedom. It may be preached or dogma-ed that way as "submission", but it isn't good. It's not good for anyone in a relationship, when that is the ask and the way it's delivered. It doesn't look like, sound like, or feel like freedom. It feels like being trapped and suffocated under expectations, no matter how many rose petals initially get one there. You need to understand that spirit. Admire it. Yield to it. Respect it and not just in lip service. Not worship, respect.

I'm hammering away on this because I like you, Mud. I've benefited from your attitudes at times, and know your desire to be protective and a helper/healer is the flip side of your unrecognized male entitlement. Which is cultural, permeates our world, and not your fault. (Once you learned about it and owned it, then you have a whole bright amazing future that may involve no rose petals at all.)

This stuff is really hard. I guess I keep challenging you because you'd make a GREAT feminist if the light came on for you after reading deeply about it. You'd find your own liberation, too. That would be amazing, but I tend to go on hopeless crusades too. So I don't expect it!

Plus, I'm fired up about an incredible woman's funeral today. Aretha.

Likely, we'll never fully understand or agree with each other, Mud, and I'm not humble when I talk about feminism. What it truly is. But that's okay.
In the hope something good might grow for you, I offer this tiny seed anyway.

Hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Mud:

Hops explained this better than I ever could, but I've said it on this board, and I'll say it again...

when a man tries to change a woman's NO into a YES, it's a huge red flag.

Any conversation you have with this woman, that includes asking her to change her mind about anything, esp the relationship, will be interpreted as another bomb, IMO. 

Healing, in this case, will be about your respectful acceptance of her NO, IME. 

Respecting her wishes, as much as you respect your own, is what will make her feel safe, Mud.  Does that make sense?

Lighter

[mudpuppy]

I say this in the heartiest good humor and good faith, but it's like you guys hear nothing I say.

 

You can dismiss another's experience, even with the most detailed explanations, but that has consequences. She sensed your desire to override her choice. Her No. To her, that WAS worth breaking up over.

That's an excellent theory but it never happened. I was perfectly sweet and supportive before she broke up with me. As I said, we discussed nothing. She said she needed space and time to think. I gave her five days of it and then we talked and she had already decided we were done. Zero pressure from me. No attempt to override her choice. She sent me a text a couple of days later thanking me for being so patient and supportive and how it showed my character etc.

You acknowledge too that this happened more than once.

No I didn't. I said I did it with Mrs Mud a couple of times who wisely let me figure out what an ass I was being and get over it. Regardless, if a guy pouting because he didn't get sex is a relationship ender then there would be no relationships because every single man has done that and not a few women.

I'm hammering away on this because I like you, Mud. I've benefited from your attitudes at times, and know your desire to be protective and a helper/healer is the flip side of your unrecognized male entitlement.

Yeah, the problem is that is an ideology and ideologies are generally useless methods of looking at and politicizing human relations. My ex girlfriend, who I know better than you do, would probably even more vehemently state that your theory is not applicable to our relationship whatsoever. It is especially not applicable because I had convinced myself, as I was pouting, that it was her schedule that really bothered me and I didn't even realize or mention the sex root of the thing until after we had already broken up, so fairly obviously it could not have had anything to do with her decision. And that demonstrates why looking at human relations through any ideological colored glasses rather than as individuals leads to myopia.

But who anointed you the Certified Healer of This Particular Soul? Maybe it's not your place.

What part of this;

 "She has one [wound] she shields from healing and only briefly acknowledged. If she won't open up to let it then nothing will ever work. I can't do that for her obviously but I'd love to be at her side if it helped her to open up and let God and her work it out together."

 says I have appointed myself the Certified Healer of her soul? Doesn't it say exactly the opposite of that, that I can't heal her, but that I would like to support her if she ever did try to heal through her faith in God [or however she chose for that matter]?

when a man tries to change a woman's NO into a YES, it's a huge red flag

If you're referring to the week after she broke up with me then I couldn't agree more. In fact I think I have mentioned several times already how foolish and counter productive that was. It was a product of me not wanting to lose her and doing the only thing I knew how to prevent it which was exactly the wrong thing. But of course by then we were already broken up and I had already lost her so it obviously had nothing to do with us breaking up.
We did have a wonderful relationship for a time and so I hope that in a few months she will be in a place where she has already decided that she would like to try again in a more Godly way, since we are both Christians and we both felt we didn't do so the first time around. When I suggested a couple of times in the middle of the breakup that some day we go back to the place we had our first date and have a second first date and do things right this time she thought it was a great idea. Now, maybe she won't down the road. Maybe she will. I'm not trying to force her to change her no into a yes. I've never tried to force a woman I love to do anything [or any other woman for that matter]. I'm just going to ask her if she'd like to try again from scratch with both of us a little older and wiser. If she doesn't then there's nothing I can do about it. If she does, yippee.

 I have to say this again; if I was a woman who came on here with this same story, I'm almost certain I would get a whole lot more Amazon support and a whole lot less, "forget about him, he sounds pretty good to us, but you honey, you're a total mess and you need some deep therapy to get yourself fixed".
 Talk about invalidating someone's perspectives and POV.  I come here with a story about someone you've never met and know nothing about and you dismiss or deride not only my theories about what happened but many of my factual eyeball and ear drum observations. Maybe your guys' perspectives are more out of whack than you know and you ought to work on yourselves a bit?
Maybe the sisterhood is just as cockeyed as the brotherhood. You pay lip service to the fact women have the same blind spots as men but that doesn't seem to slow down applying the blanket solution and in so doing you talk right past me and ignore things I plainly state.
 I'm an individual and so is my ex girlfriend. We deserve to be treated as real individuals not actors in some Mars/Venus play. A woman's perspective is different and appreciated but not if it decides it's a tribal thing before she answers and assumes I'm Alley Oop but just don't realize it. I described our particular hurts and baggage and challenges that pertain to our particular individual experiences and viewpoints. I came here looking mainly for individual insights and perspectives and what I heard in return was mostly either stereotyping, criticism, dismissal of my perspective or blaming of me. Thanks. I'm in such a better place now.
I already saw my head shrinker about her. Now I'm gonna have to go get my head shrunk over you guys helping me. 
I'm not ticked off but I am a little perplexed. I'm a guy and a human being so i have my share of faults. But, as you know women better than me I know men better than you ever will. As hopeless as I am [I ought to be the lowest common denominator] I'm a veritable prince among men. I don't even like guys they're such bums. If you had any clue how bad even the best of them is when there aren't any gals around you'd probably all be lesbians. Could I be improved? Sure. But, I'm not the problem in this relationship. I was perfect for two months [as was she] and then made what would have been a fixable boo-boo had she made even the slightest effort to resolve and talk about it with me. I acknowledge that to her it was not a small boo-boo. THAT IS THE PROBLEM! Because she has been wounded, what to a non wounded person [AKA Mrs Mud] would have been a small bump in the road, instead to her crashed us into a bridge abutment.
Because I care about her I'd like to see if we could get past that problem down the road some day, even if that is a small possibility. I got almost no practical suggestions to actually help me do so, just a lot of suggestions about what a clueless dope I am who needs oodles of work to ever have the remotest chance at finding the real love of my life.
I'm feeling a little voiceless.

mud