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Book: Voicelessness and Emotional Survival: Notes from the therapy underground
Dr. Richard Grossman:
Hi Lighter,
I am grateful to you for reading my tale of woe! And you’re not wasting your words at all! Here are some of my thoughts.
“What I got, almost exclusively, about your experiences with Ts, is the practice of a very subtle form of interpersonal terrorism.”
That’s a great way of describing it, at least re: my first therapist. I also wish my therapists could have taken the following article seriously:
Intellectual humility: the importance of knowing you might be wrong by Brian Resnik
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/1/4/17989224/intellectual-humility-explained-psychology-replication
But humility was not a part of either therapist’s character. And a patient was not allowed to question a therapist’s theoretical beliefs. As I write in the book, if a patient did question these beliefs, it was considered to be part of their problem.
“Most of us won't understand that we HOLD THESE SACRED beliefs about who we are, and being in relationship with someone who SEES these things, and KNOWS their truth with us, is important.
When people Do this, undermine us in this way, it's so subtle, it almost flys under the wire, bc it's hurtful, and confusing, in equal measures as I've experienced it. And it can't be inflicted by someone who lacks intimate knowledge about us, some kind of knowledge about what how we see ourselves, and what we value in ourselves.”
In therapy, it is so important for us to be heard for who we are and not have our “selves” distorted by being placed in rote conceptual and theoretical boxes. But this is what therapists are/were trained to do. And, yes, people in general are, for the most part, unable to listen and “get it” including those who supposedly know us best.
“But then, I think most mental health professionals choose this line of work bc of their own problems, and experiences with emotional struggles. This explains why so many aren't good at what they do. It also explains why some are most excellent, IMO.”
I agree. I think the need for status and control can also play a role—and is reinforced by certain theoretical views/practices. Actually, If I had to choose a kind of person to be a therapist, I would choose a veterinarian! No vet has ever tried to display status and control over my dogs. And certainly, Beau, my current Golden Retriever, would never let them do it! He’s the boss!
“You cultivate trust with your patients, Doc.”
My patients are dear to me, and we are always in this together.
Thank you, Lighter, for “letting the book in.” I so appreciate it—and if you do read it a second time, please let me know your thoughts and feelings.
Richard
lighter:
OK... I finished the book, and have a comment on prior tracts (brain pathways) "rusting away." We're talking about myelinated (fat covered) pathways. Fat makes pathways FAST. Fast makes it hard to head off old patterns, and choose/cultivate new pathways, which is the goal. So difficult. Takes time, as you say.
The body is very frugal with that fat, and will move it from the default pathway TO the rarely used pathways we're mindfully cultivating, but it takes time. It's SO SO hard, and I think it helps me to picture moving the fat, rather than picture the old pathways rusting away. In either case, they're both helpful images, IMO, and reminding myself that the process is the process, even when I fail, helps cut down on despair. Being aware, that I'm struggling, is a sign that I'm working on, and towards, that new goal. Awareness is imperative, IMO.
My uncle said a brain doc giving a talk at his office said it would be helpful if we stop all patterns in our lives... like putting a watch on the same wrist, the same way, at the same time, every day.....anything and everything, all patterns, every pattern...just STOP, and mix things up as a habit. I think it frees up fat, and makes our brains more efficient, and capable of practicing choice, rather than developing defaults as habit.... our brains get into the flow of choice, rather than the flow of setting defaults as habit. Maybe?
Moving on. Page 46, last paragraph.... Brought to mind....
"Call me Lionel."
Your view on attending your patient/client/another human being....
reminds me of the movie THE KING'S SPEECH. Lionel Logue's character explains his experience treating voiceless, shell shocked young men returning from war, and what they really needed "was a friend." So simple. That resonated powerfully for me, and I feel like you're describing this "bond" but in more technical terms... without using the word "friend."
You write, on page 52....
"Interestingly, I have found that while advice on how to deal with such parents can sometimes be helpful, it is not central to the therapeutic process. Note, again, the important difference in subtext from previous therapy models: I am another human being with a particular "character" that allows my patients to make a very significant attachment of a kind they have never experienced before. I this regard, my "character" matters far more than any advice I could possibly give."
::nodding::.
"Friend."
Page 50.... Yes. It would be helpful if there was a way to weed out the harmful Ts before they became practitioners. Honestly, we could say the same thing about Officers of the Court, medical doctors, LCSWs, and teachers.....
caregivers/parents.
::nodding::.
Loving the book, Doc. Thanks for writing it: )
Lighter
Dr. Richard Grossman:
Hi Lighter,
Here are some of the thoughts your comments raised in my brain!
“The body is very frugal with that fat, and will move it from the default pathway TO the rarely used pathways we're mindfully cultivating, but it takes time. It's SO SO hard, and I think it helps me to picture moving the fat, rather than picture the old pathways rusting away. In either case, they're both helpful images, IMO, and reminding myself that the process is the process, even when I fail, helps cut down on despair. Being aware, that I'm struggling, is a sign that I'm working on, and towards, that new goal. Awareness is imperative, IMO.
My uncle said a brain doc giving a talk at his office said it would be helpful if we stop all patterns in our lives... like putting a watch on the same wrist, the same way, at the same time, every day.....anything and everything, all patterns, every pattern...just STOP, and mix things up as a habit. I think it frees up fat, and makes our brains more efficient, and capable of practicing choice, rather than developing defaults as habit.... our brains get into the flow of choice, rather than the flow of setting defaults as habit. Maybe?”
Interesting, this is an individual response that may help! Even more powerful, in my view, is the power of two people spending a considerable time together in a particular way—with, as I write in the book, the outcome being highly dependent on the character of the therapist.
It is also interesting that my patients are not mindfully aware of the positive changes (e.g., the new attachment wiring) taking place. The new pathways gradually appear after significant time together and make a difference in my patients' emotions and their responses to life decisions, e.g. concerning relationships. Unfortunately, I am not knowledgeable enough about the biological changes occurring in the attachment areas of the brain to offer a technical explanation.
“Moving on. Page 46, last paragraph.... Brought to mind....
"Call me Lionel."
Your view on attending your patient/client/another human being....
reminds me of the movie THE KING'S SPEECH. Lionel Logue's character explains his experience treating voiceless, shell shocked young men returning from war, and what they really needed "was a friend." So simple. That resonated powerfully for me, and I feel like you're describing this "bond" but in more technical terms... without using the word ‘friend.’”
Exactly! That’s why the therapist gets renamed “Dr. Friend” in the prologue to the book. The blend is very important in my view…
“Page 50.... Yes. It would be helpful if there was a way to weed out the harmful Ts before they became practitioners. Honestly, we could say the same thing about Officers of the Court, medical doctors, LCSWs, and teachers.....
caregivers/parents.”
I completely agree! So much damage is done by destructive people in multiple caring professions.
Thank you, again, Lighter, for reading the book and making such thoughtful comments. I so appreciate it!
Richard
Twoapenny:
Hi Dr G :)
Thank you so much for your answers to my questions! It's so interesting reading about your point of view and your experiences. Very honest, as well. I think it takes an enormously expansive mind to be aware there's a possibility of being wrong and I think it's a possibility that many of us struggle with. I have bookmarked the article you mentioned about that to read later.
It was very interesting for me to read that you don't like change and that's why you changed the way things were done, rather than changing what you were doing. So interesting to read of that as a character type and a fundamental aspect of who you are. I've come to the conclusion more recently that I am the opposite. I think the prospect of digging deep within myself and standing still is very frightening for me, so I tend to change where I am or what I'm doing instead. It's interesting that this is all coming up at the same time, as I've been thinking about a period in my younger days when I was happy and enjoying my life and I keep wondering now, what would have happened if I'd gone deeper into that experience instead of dropping out of it and moving on to something else. It's given me great food for thought and I'll continue to ponder on that.
It was also really helpful to read your thoughts on what therapy ought to be trying to help us achieve. It's odd that our problems now are so different to those of the past. In earlier times much of our thought and energy would have gone in to hunting and growing food, keeping warm, finding water, avoiding bears and so on. You'd think that with so many of us not having to give a great deal of thought to those things any more that we'd all just be sitting around feeling happy and content. But we have new and different problems to deal with, many of them created by the very comforts we all enjoy. It's a funny world to live in and your thoughts (and style) of therapy are so helpful at making sense of it all.
I've been re-reading Chapter 1 and I was so struck by your early professor (the one who was also a therapist) marking you down for not using him enough. I found it such an odd thing for him to do, particularly, as you pointed out, as he saw you regularly and could have mentioned that he wanted to see more of what you were doing. It does make it sound like a punishment for you not making him important enough. I was also astonished that you had tutors who insisted you'd plagurized because your work was of too high a standard! Was that connected to the previous professor giving you a lower mark so they thought you couldn't work at that level? It seems such an odd and unpleasant thing to do (although I'm glad one of them seemed to believe you!). It's always very striking when people who are teaching others how to do things can be very unaware of themselves and their own behaviour and attitudes. I'm so glad these bad experiences didn't put you off. Particularly the art teacher who didn't even bother to read your paper (which did sound very interesting!). A friend of mine has recently had a similar experience as part of a Masters course she is doing. She submitted her idea for her dissertation and her tutor sent her back a sarcastic response that essentially rubbished the idea but didn't give any suggestions for improvement or suggest a meeting to discuss further. She switched tutors, submitted the same idea and got a very positive response about an unusual slant on the topic in question along with some information for her to think about and an invitation to arrange an appointment to discuss further if required. Such a different approach. I do feel that education ought to be about helping people achieve their best rather than setting an ideal and then berating people for doing something different. Your honours thesis advisor sounded dreadful as well! It's so fortunate that you used those experiences to think about changing the way things are done rather than giving up on the whole thing. Very disheartening to be treated in such an off hand manner by people. I have met people over the years who seem ill suited for their jobs - teachers who don't like children, paediatricians who seem to dislike parents, social workers who come across as people that would leave their own granny bleeding in the street. It's odd that some people seem to be attracted to things that really reveal their darker side. I wonder if that's why it happens; some sort of deep seated urge to heal but it somehow gets thwarted because they don't notice what's going on within themselves? Interesting to think about.
I'm so glad you finished the chapter with the lovey story of the Head of the Program Professor. He sounds so lovely and it's amazing that he had such a life long impact on you after only two meetings. Thank goodness there was a good egg in there as well.
I'm really enjoying the second read. Thank you so much for writing it and for your responses on the thread as well; it's so helpful and interesting to digest.
Dr. Richard Grossman:
Hi Tupp,
Thank you so much for your second read and your thoughtful questions and comments! I could probably write a second book addressing them fully, but let me try to address them in part ;-)
“It was very interesting for me to read that you don't like change and that's why you changed the way things were done, rather than changing what you were doing. So interesting to read of that as a character type and a fundamental aspect of who you are. I've come to the conclusion more recently that I am the opposite.”
Yes, I think reaction to change is a significant part of a person’s character. For example, having to put down Beau, my beloved almost 14-year-old Golden Retriever a few weeks ago has been very difficult for me. I keep looking for him in every room that I walk into and my heart sinks when I don’t find him.
“It was also really helpful to read your thoughts on what therapy ought to be trying to help us achieve. It's odd that our problems now are so different to those of the past. In earlier times much of our thought and energy would have gone in to hunting and growing food, keeping warm, finding water, avoiding bears and so on. You'd think that with so many of us not having to give a great deal of thought to those things any more that we'd all just be sitting around feeling happy and content. But we have new and different problems to deal with, many of them created by the very comforts we all enjoy.”
For many people, even when they achieve the many comforts of middle class life, aloneness continues to be a significant problem. This is, in part, why people who are in the “upper class” are, in general, no happier or satisfied with life than those who are in the “middle class.” But, yes, in many ways, life used to be much more difficult and characterized by the often overwhelming struggle to survive and help one’s family to survive. And in many places on this earth, survival at this level continues to be the dominant struggle.
"I've been re-reading Chapter 1 and I was so struck by your early professor (the one who was also a therapist) marking you down for not using him enough. I found it such an odd thing for him to do, particularly, as you pointed out, as he saw you regularly and could have mentioned that he wanted to see more of what you were doing. It does make it sound like a punishment for you not making him important enough."
As a 20 year old, I was surprised to find that narcissism played such a significant role in the university setting and in life, in general. But, as I write in the book, this was such an important lesson!
"I was also astonished that you had tutors who insisted you'd plagurized because your work was of too high a standard! Was that connected to the previous professor giving you a lower mark so they thought you couldn't work at that level? It seems such an odd and unpleasant thing to do (although I'm glad one of them seemed to believe you!). It's always very striking when people who are teaching others how to do things can be very unaware of themselves and their own behaviour and attitudes. I'm so glad these bad experiences didn't put you off. Particularly the art teacher who didn't even bother to read your paper (which did sound very interesting!)."
It was not connected to the other event. Looking back, it was also telling that I had no reaction to the suspicions/accusations/disinterest. I had very few expectations from the world around me and assumed that this was the way the world was—again, part of my character. It’s funny, but now in my mid-60’s, every time I receive a letter asking for money from the undergraduate (and graduate!) universities that I attended, I am always tempted to respond with the stories from my book and ask them what they propose to do about them!
"I do feel that education ought to be about helping people achieve their best rather than setting an ideal and then berating people for doing something different."
Interesting—there is much being written on this very topic because the value of a college education in the modern world is suddenly in question. I just read Kathy Davidson’s book, The New Education, on how college education practices should be changed to reflect exactly what you suggest.
"It's odd that some people seem to be attracted to things that really reveal their darker side. I wonder if that's why it happens; some sort of deep seated urge to heal but it somehow gets thwarted because they don't notice what's going on within themselves? Interesting to think about."
Character—and its associated multiple needs—are often very complicated! In my experience, and as I write about, very often people don’t choose professions for the obvious reasons.
"I'm so glad you finished the chapter with the lovey story of the Head of the Program Professor. He sounds so lovely and it's amazing that he had such a life long impact on you after only two meetings. Thank goodness there was a good egg in there as well."
This wonderful professor deserves to be named: Ulric Neisser. You can Google him to learn more. If he were still alive, I would thank him in person. Meeting with him for a total of one hour, he played such a significant role in my education and my life.
Thank you, again, Tupp for all your thoughts and comments! Let me know if you have any more!
Richard
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