Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Relationship/s
Hopalong:
Thanks, Amber.
You're right, this will require speaking clearly and confidently about what I require to feel I can keep on progressing. Being listened to honestly, with evidence afterward that I've been heard. It is scary but unavoidable, for an honest and healthy connection to grow. We're mostly-healthy in most major areas, but not the relaxed, close emotional connection part. The anxiety is just too huge. His triggers mine or mine triggers his, or we're in a mutual firing squad at times. Not wanting to be, just the ways we're wired.
I can so imagine how the Mike anniversary is affecting you. I'm glad you honor and acknowledge and are tender about it.
The one-year anniversary of M's wife's death is tomorrow, and I'm glad we'll be together then. I wonder if some of his recent "spinning" has been influenced by that. He doesn't bring it up often but of course it's working in his unconscious. It's definitely not the only reason for his insensitivity, but makes sense that it's one factor that might be helpful for him to talk about if he'd like to.
He mostly likes to go on and on about how everything is wonderful, perfect, fabulous, astonishing, he can't imagine life without me, he wants me forever, let's hurry up and find a house and marry and it's all (for him)....URGENT.
I see urgent as code for anxious, so my heels are digging in to put on the brakes.
Appreciate your response and understanding mucho mucho!
Hugs
Hops
lighter:
OK, Hops....
I think M isn't in his adult right mind when he spins like that. I think the little baby grasping for mama is in charge, and baby can't wait or feel OK until mama is back within his grasp or view, kwim?
To figure that out, I can't imagine doing it without a professional who can talk him through it when you've lost your patience, when he's in an appointment hearing HOW important this is and WHY he needs to do A B C and D... even if he's feeling anxious, so he can move OUT of that place, and into a better place.
This isn't just about you feeling better. HE'LL feel so much better once he's done some work, and figured out new strategies, and pathways, IME. That's always the way. Through the abyss, and all that.
There's my two cents. There's no direct reasoning with baby, and you're definitely one to use reason, and seek understanding.
Baby needs to feel heard, understood and cared for before baby can consider listening and giving attention to ANYTHING besides his own selfish nurturing little baby needs, IME.
I think it makes sense you were attracted to him, and him to you. Now, how to make the most and best of that attraction, while limiting the hard sharp pointy spots.
Love isn't enough. There needs to be comfort, rest, and ease, along with action, affection, and cooperation. Figuring all that out, without triggering abandonement issues, will be quite the trick. If any one can do it, you certainly can.
Use your mommy voice to get him into a good codependene T who can work with you both. He's a motivated man. Steer him in a postiive direction, and hold your ground.
OK. NOW that's my two cents over: )
Lighter
Twoapenny:
Aw Hops. The thing that really impresses me about you is the way that you look at things so truthfully and honestly, even when you know doing so might break your heart. I think just about everyone else I've ever known would be glossing over the things you've mentioned because the allure of marriage/comfortable retirement/companionship in later years is so strong (and understandably so) that a lot of people would just put up with the things you've mentioned. I'm glad you feel able to acknowledge them to yourself and give yourself time to think and talk about them.
I think what's difficult to work out (with anyone) is whether the way they're behaving is being caused by something (and is therefore something that can be worked on) or if it's more just an aspect of their personality (which I think is much harder to shift). I imagine he's often had to hold court, either at work or socially, and I think we can all find ourselves slipping into a certain kind of mask (flowery language and romantic ramblings). I suppose the question is whether he can take the mask off and be a bit more 'real' with you.
The not being heard and his need to take over (including the not really paying attention during intimacy bit) might be the part of 'man' that he's always been expected to play - in charge, taking control, running the show. I think for a long time society dictated that men did the doing and women followed along - in all areas of life. Meeting a woman like you is probably/possibly quite a new thing for him - someone who thinks deeply, expresses herself clearly and goes home when she's not happy is quite possibly all new territory for him.
None of which helps - we can rationalise and intellectualise and analyse but ultimately we want our Hopsie to be happy, and heard, and respected. The not listening during sex thing would have really triggered me and, like you, I would be wondering if he was just placating me until the next time. The other situations you mentioned are all things that would have really bothered me. Someone taking charge during a time of crisis when you're unable to cope is one thing, but taking charge when there's no need to would bother me. As would saying thank you to people for looking after you :) I can fully see that there would be women who would find that really sweet and who love the idea of having a man in charge and looking after them whilst being sweet to their friends. And then there are women like Hops (and the rest of us) who don't like it, don't want it and don't need it.
It's very hard. It's tough to figure out other people's motives and reasons, especially when they probably don't actually have that insight themselves. I am hoping that it's resolveable/fixable/manageable. But also glad that you're taking an eyes wide open approach. I expect his wife's anniversary is having some sort of whoo haa with him at the moment, which again doesn't help but maybe it means things will calm down a bit. Is he still visiting his own T? xx
CB123:
I had missed the Latin element somehow, Hops. Is he from Spain? Is English his second language? There can definitely be some communication issues, if so--especially if he is a really good English speaker, its easy to forget. Also there are deeply embedded cultural issues, especially male-female ones.
CB
Hopalong:
Hi ((((CB))))--
First, Everybody--thank you so very much for these posts. I am feeling the need to sit with them a bit, and reflect more deeply after seeing M again this evening. I'm going to be listening, and speaking very honestly. And I feel as though I'll know more after that, to post more clearly in response, tomorrow.
CB, your question is easier! M looks totally Irish but he was born and raised in Costa Rica. His father is the Latin side, his mother the Irish-Italian side (I keep mixing them up, will advise). His family history is a huge mix of Spain, Italy, Cuba, Ireland, etc. He's a beautiful mutt.
But definitely influenced by Latin perceptions of manhood, so that was a good thing to mention. Intellectually, he's offset not all but a lot of that. His mind is pretty amazing, and I find him more open to new information than any other man my age I've met. I think he may have a genius IQ. Dunno if I mentioned it, but he was the youngest full professor in the US at one point. (I keep referring to his relentless ambition as though that was the reason but, in fact, he is also so brilliant that he deserved that status.) He's politically as liberal as I am, was a total rebel in his youth (in Berkeley!), so I'm not dealing with conventional macho. I think the paternalism and stuff comes partly from the Latin influence, yet more from the fact that his family, going way back, was very wealthy and influential. I think it's class that has given him some blind spots. He does try to see other perspectives but was in a gilded bubble of money and elitism his whole life. He doesn't know as much as I do about questions of power and privilege, because he never had to deal with them.
I can see him fighting it off, but the slipping comes when he walks into a tense situation or something that seems to need solving, and his sense of mastery ("master"fulness) rises. I don't even blame him for that. He has a portrait of his grandmother that's literally 3 feet high in his LR. The sense of legacy, the pressure of it (and unwittingly, the companion entitlement) goes waaaaaaaaay back.
I have to say I admire him for his reactions when he bumps into it and I can see it dawning in a given moment. I actually think if we can keep on, there might be a revelatory journey for him ahead. He keeps telling me how "astonishing" it all is with me, and I've reacted mostly to his exaggerated language, without realizing that he sincerely means this. He IS astonished! I'm off in the weeds examining psychological stuff, not astonished at all about seeing emotional things for what they are, and he's trying to deal with an upended world view.
I feel calmer about setting more boundaries, holding them in peace, and just letting him play out whatever reaction he wants to. Partly because I talked about it so much with my T, and partly because of so much understanding (and insights) I've received here....I do feel like investing some more patience and effort.
No conclusions yet, but I also want to be conscious of not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Will let y'all know tomorrow how it's going, and thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for being here.
Love,
Hops
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