Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Relationship/s
sKePTiKal:
Hi Hops! Glad you're home and that you had some fabulous time on your trip, even if there was something tough to deal with, come up. I've kept 2 "man tests" in my head for years... one is setting up a tent with him - takes clear communication and absolute concentration and cooperation. The other is some sort of "road trip" experience - both people are outside their normal environment and encountering new situations and people and sometimes trials & tribulations.
I can sympathize with your need to retreat from the professorial "talkiness". I have a D like that; in her case she's designated her sweetie as some kind of emotional security blanket and when he leaves for work - the talkiness goes into overdrive, she turns critical - all while proclaiming how objective and "right" her observations are and it can get nasty. Abandonment issues? Daddy issues? (I'm suspecting but not sure.)
On the one hand, I'd say that there are lots worse things to put up with than that non-stop verbosity BUT when it turns into a personal, relational critique I gotta agree with you about how serious an issue it is. It's related to judgement, I think - based on some inner needs that a healthy relationship ISN'T supposed to meet. The judgement is almost like a temper tantrum - demanding, angry, and projecting the obligation to meet the need (because the person doesn't know how to?) onto others. "Make me feel good" seems to be the implied message. Or "why are you not impressed with my awesomeness?" and "How dare you have a different perception, opinion or feeling than I do?"
Rather than get assertive and make some sharp retorts to this or put on the all-powerful "mom" hat - I've just been quietly physically removing myself from the conversation. If I stay and stand my ground, it begins to escalate into out & out confrontation. I seldom have the energy for that and she IS stronger than I am and refuses to be humble or just human... even though she BS's a good game - it's a distortion of her impacts on other people. I am not her only target; her friend John who is here has taken the same thing. Having someone else around - to confirm my perception or see something I missed or perceive it differently - has been helpful. We often debrief and that's been an oasis for me and a relief from abject misery over what kind of torture she's going through internally to feel the need to express it outwardly and project it onto others.
I hope M is continuing his personal therapy Hops. The couples T can help with toolkits but I think this behavior (which is only one thing "wrong", right?) of his needs to be unpacked, sorted, processed, and dealt with too. John and I keep bringing that up to Hol, too but without pressuring her.
CB123:
Hops,
The thing that concerns me is that his critical, attacking behavior only occurred when you were isolated with him and ended when you reached civilization. That would be a red flag for me, but sadly was not when I went through it. As a matter of fact, I reacted similarly as you, mostly such relief after it was over that I was willing to keep trying.
I found that the issues that were very real could have been an opportunity for me to do some self-examination about why I reacted the way I did. My initial (and long-term) response was to verbally analyze him, to be part of his enlightenment, in a sense, I wanted to be his savior I think. I would like to have those years back. I would like to have back the energy I spent trying to make him my safe place.
It's a hell of a process disentangling from it. The turmoil interspersed with sheer joy is addictive. I'm still discovering ways in which it changed me.
CB
Hopalong:
Thank you, ((((((((((CB)))))))))))).
A sober warning I know you came by with intense direct experience.
I promise it's in my mind and will come up with my (and our) T.
One difference is my fears of impoverished old age, plus how genuine I think his appreciation is of me, most of the time.
I think getting a clear-eyed total view will still take (and deserves) more time, and more insight from both my-T and our-T.
I won't pledge my life to M unless I get a real sense that he's committed to a deep dive. Some hope, for me, lies in how motivated he is by knowledge. I think it's possible, though hardly guaranteed, that he'll actually embark on this kind of inner work. It's more learning, and he lives for knowledge.
Until I know, I don't want to toss the baby with the bathwater. But I'm nowhere near as dedicated to sustaining something unsupportable as I was for so long years back, particularly in my second marriage.
M is startled by how determined I am to NOT move into deeper commitment with him. He thinks once love is declared it's "as simple as that". I couldn't disagree more and won't budge unless I see real evidence that it's going to be sane and sound.
I value and appreciate your warnings. One difference in our lives, and a big one, is that I have no family whatsoever, at my back. No children who would shelter or care about what happens to me in old age. Unfortunately, that's a real factor in my considerations now. I'm trying full-heartedly to keep that in balance, and my T supports those questions in both scenarios.
I won't give myself over to maltreatment, ever. I am way way too stubborn and feisty for that. And if I don't see evidence that he begins to understand the difference between doting and empathy, I will step away.
Hey. I had very good luck in meeting him online and have had an amazing year with him I will never regret no matter what the long-term outcome is. And there's absolutely nothing to prevent me from doing it again if M and I don't make it for the long haul.
I'm grateful for all this experience. I'm really glad I ventured it. And I still have hopes for us. Just not expectations, which is for me a huge difference.
Reality is still my (best) friend.
hugs
Hops
lighter:
Hi Hops:
Lets remember you don't have to do anything.
If you marry M... you don't have to stay married.
If you get engaged.... you don't have to get married.
If you move in, you don't have to stay there.
There are no mistakes. There are only chances to explore what you and M have together, could have together, will have together.
If it's hell..... you can go. You don't need his permission. There's no shame in being brave enough to risk love, IME.
You're a big girl and you have decisions to make. No judgment. Just discovery.
If there's ups and downs.... things are pretty normal.
If there's more hell than not.... it's time to make a move. You have your own home. You have friends. You have a very good mind and ability to advocate for yourself.
I say be fearless. Don't waste time. Get to where you want to be and see if it's where you thought you were going.
It might be better.
Might be hell.
You won't know until you get there and no one says you have to stay if you don't want to.
Lighter
Hopalong:
Thank you, (((Lighter))).
You're absolutely right. I always will have choice.
And so far, I really don't sense "hell." Not at all.
Just a sense that isolation and being cut off from my independent supports apart from him would not be good for me. I'm not up for an enmeshed all-dependent kind of thing.
But I'm not sure M would want that either, despite his declarations about me. He is writing books, for f's sake...and still very absorbed in his scholarship (thank heaven). We may settle back into a very nice sharing routine with a balance of separate interests.
We will have been together a year next month. And have come a long way in that time. That said, it's still early days and as you wisely point out...I can keep on aiming at the kind of bond I want to build and extricate myself at any point if I feel the need.
Alone in the jungle was really a fairly extreme test. We didn't exactly fail it but were tested under the strain. And maybe that's okay in the bigger picture.
Time, and T work, and me living my own life more fully and healthily, will tell.
Hugs
Hops
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