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Hopalong:
((((((((CB)))))))))))

I am beyond grateful for you too.
You have been a lovely lodestar for me for so long.

And thank you for speaking of my strength.
One of the loveliest things is to hear it and believe it.

I have to process anxiety when it comes, by just super-verbalizing
until I've pounded it all into a shape I can work with. The last two
days have just been about that, really, and I feel stronger now because
of it.

Sending you and your kids much love, comfort, courage. I know they
have a lot of their mother's resilience and intelligence, and hope they
all stay healthy and wise. You made great people and you ARE a great person.

When you can, update us more on how you're coping, job, and your provisions.

love
Hops

Hopalong:
Zoom T-session with M coming up in a few hours.

I've realized it's pretty simple what I need today. I need to tell them, I think there are only two things for me that I need to work in our relationship. Listening, and empathy. Can you (T) help us with those?

When I fell the other day, in those seconds of pain and shock on the floor, one of my first flash-thoughts was, better not tell M. That's not new, but it was a simple re-stating of a truth: he is not a comfort, emotionally, because his focus becomes instantly about himself, his role, or his feelings if it's serious. I would shortly turn to writing a close friend about how it happened and how I felt. Later, when M called, after his usual huge waterfall of lengthy talk about himself, he said, "Oh how did it go with friend's visit today?" Then I got to briefly tell him it was very nice being outside with her, and then told him about my fall, in a brief description. He didn't seem interested and asked zero questions. Shortly he said, "It'll be fine" and switched right back into talking about himself again. That was it.

I told him the next day that I had felt disappointment, that what I'd really needed was some empathy. He said I do feel empathy, that's why I said I'd bring you anything you needed. Classic male socialization, I know...to do actions, to be dutiful. And that's valuable. I appreciated the offer, and told him, I'd like a big salad, and he brought one by, and we sat on the porch in the sun and I was very glad to see him.

It was very similar to how I felt with the stroke. In the moment of crisis, I need to avoid him, because he makes it all about himself and how he feels or sees himself in his role as the one in charge. But the very next day, with him sitting in my hospital room, I was overwhelmed with gratitude for his support.

It was interesting to figure out the difference. What I yearn for is a partner who can offer empathy AND practical support. M only has practical support, dutiful actions, to give. He just doesn't do empathy.

In the post-fall conversation, I tried to explain to him what I'd needed was any kind of empathic interest, that it might appear in comments or questions like:
Ow! That must've hurt!
Did you think you broke anything?
You must've been scared, falling alone.
I'm sorry that happened.

He just said, I do feel empathy, which is why I said I'd bring food.

I believe him. I believe he believes that taking action or stating he will, IS empathy. And it's churlish of me to complain about what else I need/want, but it also brings me a lot of clarity. And helps guide me about where to go in our shared therapy.

My guess is, M will feel defensive. He's already pushed back by saying that his reactions in these situations ARE empathy and doesn't engage or respond to anything I describe that is what I think is empathy. (He'll write me emails about how he is there for me and will do anything I need and loves loves loves me...he is VERY focused on loving in his writing, just not behaviorally in the present). But in person, when I mention it, he disengages, looks away while looking a little irritated, and to me, demonstrates that he is not going to look within.)

So I'm going to be very careful to not make it a criticism of him. Just tell the Sikh, I think we have differences in what we need. M needs most my intellectual, conversational companionship. I enjoy that part of our relationship a lot, but think other parts would grow deeper if we also dealt with listening and empathy. Can you help us with that? Or do I need to accept that it is what it is, we're both doing the best we can, and if I need listening or empathy, I should just continue to get those needs met with other people?

I think that might be a good approach. It's honest and it's not blaming.

Fingers crossed...

hugs
Hops

lighter:

--- Quote from: Hopalong on April 01, 2020, 01:37:46 PM ---I hear you, Lighter:


--- Quote ---This is going to be about you, Hops, changing how you view M's behaviors rather than M learning to change all the things pinging off warning bells
--- End quote ---

There's a little bit of unreality in that for me, though. It'll take some time and some more months of single-T and joint-T sessions, probably. But what I am asking my wisest inner self (hellloooo! please come back sooooon!) is this: If M's behaviors ARE warning bells of the personality disorder I was raised to be drawn to and most dread, then perhaps I should NOT change how I view his behaviors.

If I am over-reacting (layering it over Nmother trauma memories as you astutely mention) then you are right. My goal then would be to de-escalate it and remove its "charge." In my own T work and inner work. So I can stay with M.

It's not really a binary choice. My challenge, I believe, would be to find out how deeply and how much his N-ish (I am VERY confident using that adjective, with the "ish") behavior distresses me because of its emotional impact on me. Are we truly a good fit?

If it bothers me only a little now and then, and I should look at it with fond benevolence--oh, the little Nboy is acting out, I don't have to react...then the answer's pretty easy. Most of the time I enjoy his company, even though I find him extremely self absorbed. Maidenly [edit: Maddeningly! I HATE AUTOCORRECT! LOL!] , at times.

If it bothers me so much it shakes me to the core and keeps me awake all night (has quite a few times), maybe I do have to react proactively in my own self-interest. When I feel strong I can fight for myself. Then there are times I wish I didn't HAVE to be so strong, to be in this relationship. I'd like to feel safe just being however I feel, with him.  I agree with everything you've said, Hops.  And you shouldn't have to fight all the time in any relationship, IMO. 

SEEING what's true is the goal, I agree. 

IF it's just the little N boy acting up, not all the time, and you responding without emotional charge, calmly, not disturbed to the core and up for nights..... that's a truth worth knowing.

IF he's like your mother, and won't change, and actually requires you be upset, bc that's part of his need to feel OK.... that's an important truth, but I don't know it's the truth.  He seems not very aware of your reactions...... but you'd know better than me.

I will say this, though you know it already.....
this discomfort you're dealing with is a message... you need to make a move.  I don't know what moves will resolve it, and restore serenity.  I only know that messages sometimes feel like THE PROBLEM, when they're just discomfort we're meant to deal with and I you're one person focused on figuring that discomfort out and fixing it to the best of your ability, whatever that looks like. 

I don't sense fear or confusion.  I sense reactivity... we all deal with that.... and I sense your happiness when things click with M.... when you aren't stuggling and working too hard to make it OK.

 

My goal isn't so much to be right or in control of everything, as it is to be wise. One friend I've talked about it with sees how much I do NOT want to live on guard, always strategizing my emotional safety, tense about defending boundaries he ignores, and ever-ready to detour around his passive-aggressive stuff during times of tension. There are simply times, particularly as I age, when I would be quite vulnerable to his attitudes and his choices. And I want to be wise around whether M is someone I can trust with my vulnerability long-term.  There's an answer to that, Hops.  It's a solvable puzzle.  You'll figure it out, and feel grounded and right about that decision, no doubt. 

So far, even after a year and a month, I'm not sure. But it ain't over. I am pretty convinced this is not about the pandemic, but sure as hell is converging with that fear too.  It's one more stress on top of other stressors, Hops.  Maybe it's what gets you to the answers more quickly with more speed. 

Just called him as he'd asked. This usually happens when I place the call. He answers hello? And immediately, instantly, launches into a long monologue of whatever he's stored up. It can go on nonstop for 10-15 minutes. Eventually, he remembers to ask about me. I am not sure how interested he actually is, but he manages that courtesy better than he used to.

Well.... he's improving, for what that's worth.  What is it worth?  How does it feel?  Heavy or light?

About the chattering like a deranged monkey with zero ability to control himself... I have experience with similar monkeys.  I had a talk with one of those monkeys lately and we both agreed that monkey just needed to vent, and be heard.  I didn't need to answer, give advice, problem solve or take my mind out of my own business while the monkey chattered.  Some monkeys need to process verbally and touch base with their rocks.  I guess you're one of or THE rock for M. 

I'm curious.... what do discussions around this sound like with him, if you'd brought it up?  Would be be cool with you just being there, not really investing in the conversation?  Just letting him unload so you can both go back to your day feeling OK?

Or would be be upset you aren't participating, giving advice and making him FEEL better by suggesting this and that?  I couldn't do that, Hops.   Especially if I felt I would be punished for taking care of myself, and not him. 

M needs to want you to be OK too.  He needs to make that possible, facilitate where he can and not punish you in any way.  I really think the true measure of a relationship is in how we respond to not getting what we want.  Do we still want happiness and health for our loved one or do we go out of our way to F them up and make them sorry?  Is that what M does?  In any way? 

For me that's a huge red flag.  People should still be able to be kind, or at least not lash out when they aren't happy with us all the time.  You wouldn't lash out at him or punish him.... you're taking care of yourself.  That might feel like punishment to him, but there's a huge difference, IME. 

What I remember, growing up with them-thar fancy telephones...was an etiquette that, when someone calls YOU, you say Hello, and then how are you? Or, what's goin on? Or such. IOW, a person calls someone to speak to them. With M, the unwritten rule is, someone calls me so I can speak to THEM, and he instantly launches into it. So he speaks first and most, and I get to tag on my own story sometimes, and shorter.  I think waiting for a chance to speak, rather than listening, is a universal problem most people suffer, to a greater or lesser degree, IME. 

M has it to a greater degree, always has, it's not personal TO YOU.  I have friends who do that.  I have friends who sort of do that.  I have friends who are sorry when I point it out, but they don't get a whole lot better about it.   

I think part of the problem, for me, is I'm an engaged listener who enjoys listening very much.
 That steers habits in a certain direction... I train people, I admit it.  I'm trying to do a better job, and things seem to be going very well with Mossing L.  A back and forth, lots of interest for both of us. 

You're going to have to train M to be a better listener,  IMO.  Set some ground rules about your time to speak and his time to listen.  My mother always said men are trainable or not trainable, and she ended up in an amazing partnership with a really nice man, BUT SHE HAD TO STAND HER GROUND with him.  And she did.  Without any reactivity.  It was always a response she felt entitled to and perfectly capable of delivering, which she did.  And they'd scrap a bit, then go back to playing like kittens together in their life. 

Scrapping is a part of life, IMO.  Those who don't scrap or have arguments are more likely to fail in marriage, or so I hear. 

You're working on the important things.

You're worth the time and effort and expense to M. 

He seems to be worth it to you.

How's it going with the lovely couple's T?

Lighter

Oh, so familiar. You're right about that!

Hugs
Hops

PS She also said something that surprised me: that the widespread belief that people who are Ns or have many N-behaviors never ever change, is based on old research. That was an optimistic thought. NOT (hah) that M would have a wholesale personality transplant (I wouldn't want that anyway) but that she doesn't automatically assume he could never change any of his most triggering behaviors toward me. He is highly motivated to make our relationship last (even more than I am, because I am willing to leave). And I think she was suggesting that it's perhaps more useful to think about him in terms of him being profoundly insecure, rather than fixate on the N term. (She mentioned his deep insecurity. Not that I can't ever use the N ism vocabulary, but that other language for what he does is insecurity. I will find out if he can practice empathy, at least enough of it, with me.)

The couples-T, the Sikh, is kind enough to come to my back yard tomorrow, to do an outdoor session with us on my private back patio, since M has declared he feels "unsafe" going into the office building. I told her I had wondered whether it was really the virus he was scared of, or was it continuing a challenging conversation we had last time. She instantly said she thought it was the latter. I do too, but since M had already met with me in my back yard, and I assured him he would always be six feet away from the T, and he would be touching nothing the T had touched, he was safe. I think he has no excuse to wiggle out of it, so he's coming.

--- End quote ---

Hopalong:
Lighter, thanks much!
I confess I do get lost in all the small blue ink...if you return to a thread you've previously gotten into (which I appreciate!) could you change ink colors for the later pass?

Hope that made sense!

Must go shower/wash hair before Zoom T appointment.
The good news is, no need to shave legs.

HAH!

Hops

Hopalong:
Thanks, (((((CB)))))).

The session with Sikh went extremely well. I was honestly amazed. I approached it all with statements about how I didn't assume I was being fair, and insights I'd gotten about the overlap I felt between M and my NMom, and how I still want to stick up for myself, and the various emotional difficulties I have (at times) with his uncontrollable need to start talking and keep talking and basically, take up all the oxygen, so I wind up feeling like a submissive, deflated balloon, and just don't have the energy to fight for my turn at the mike.

What really surprised me was the T's skillful questioning of M, which brought forth the very helpful insight that M has a Very Hard Time calming himself, when he's been listening to news or whatever, and changing channels to actually be present with me. His first instinct is to UNLOAD, and he does that in a compulsive, heedless way, that often leaves me feeling resentful, because I've assumed (long training with NMom) that there's just no point trying to be heard.

The T suggested I learn to say, M can you get calm for a minute, so we can connect? Or something like that. Basically, T was saying, Hops, you need to SPEAK UP when it happens. And he's right.

T also said a lot of insightful things about how M has always and for many years been rewarded for being masterful, taking charge, fixing everything. And that's true.

Anyway, it was a wide ranging conversation, but even on Zoom, I think we were all pretty happy afterward.

I felt less judgmental of M, more tender toward us both, and more hopeful.

It was a big relief. I think one difference was I stopped being careful about saying what I really feel, like: 'I want to talk FIRST sometimes!"

I spelled out how I'd realized if I feel vulnerable, I imagine contacting friends for comfort, not him, and how I'd like to figure out whether M can get to empathy in the moment that isn't all about him playing his heroic roles, but not hearing me at the same time. I got the clarification for me which is, in the MOMENT of crisis, M does not  help or can make me feel worse, but the day after, when the MAINTENANCE of support kicks in, he's so into that.

T also gave us perspective that this kind of thing is changeable, but takes tiiiiiiiime. I felt relieved and better about everything....at the least, willing to keep on exploring all this with M.

I gotta say, I feel incredibly, incredibly lucky that by happenstance, my own T gave us this name in a list of suggestions for a couples-T...and we wound up choosing the Sikh.

Everybody should have their very own Sikh! I like him so very much--he's crazily perceptive. M feels the same way about him....and that joint appreciation of our T bodes well for us, I think.

hugs
Hops

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