Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Relationship/s
lighter:
You've relaxed into this new life, Hops.
It seems right, and good, and worthy of you.
I hope it's all you want it to be, and more.
You deserve to be happy. '
You deserve family, Hops.
Lighter
Twoapenny:
Yes, what Lighter said!
It's really lovely, Hops, not least because you feel comfortable with the things he's suggesting. You're not getting a sense of him wanting to control or dominate you, or picking up the tab because it makes him feel superior - and you would be picking that up if it were there because you've spent so many years thinking, learning, absorbing and being so honest with yourself that you'd be getting a tingling if there were something else underlying the situation. But there isn't. Two very good people who've both been though tough times have found each other and fitted together. Really does happen. And Pooch approves! There is really no other test :) Lol. I'm genuinely delighted for both of you and very excited about your upcoming trip :) xx
Hopalong:
Sigh. Not a relationship ender, but the inevitable pink flag. Can't be all honeymoon all the time, so I'm evaluating this.
M is constantly talking and charming and storytelling. He's very dynamic and delightful. He's mostly fascinating and everyone I've introduced him to has enjoyed his company and been enthusiastic about us.
First time I've disliked him for anything happened yesterday. Two female friends were hanging out on my patio with us and he started talking about his first wife, the mother of his children. They had a painful second half (20 year marriage) that ended in one of those dramas wherein she had the house emptied one day when he was at work. I know that shocked and hurt him terribly and always felt so sorry when he'd mention it. But then yesterday, he holds forth about her for 40 minutes in front of two women friends of mine he'd only met once before each...and the way he tells the story I am disturbed and uncomfortable. He goes on about how awful she is, how one of her sons won't even talk to her, and then adds a gleeful anecdote about how his aggressive divorce lawyer advised him to go after half her federal pension. And he's so proud of that.
I suddenly realized that I think he's part of the problem. Not just the victim of a terrible person, although I have no reason to disbelieve that she turned into one over their marriage. He has told me they loved each other at the beginning and for some years were happy. But he clearly blames her for all of it...being very competitive with him, resentful about his career, etc. Yet he also has had overwhelming academic ambition, too. He acknowledged that once privately, when I was expressing compassion for her, and that she may have felt powerless.
Suddenly I thought, she was deeply unhappy, felt unappreciated (she had a good government job and also raised the kids, whom he adores but I wonder how deeply involved he was day to day)....etc. She may have dark characteristics (she is Norwegian and he blames some of it on that culture as though she's from a Bergman movie) and is estranged from her parents, whom he describes as this lovely old couple she's just randomly cruel to. I wondered instantly, could she be an abuse survivor?
He appears to have vigorously taken up the cause of her ancient parents, befriending them and encouraging the kids to be in relationship to them, which she didn't want. I don't know why, but it sounds as though he chose the kids over her and disregarded her wishes. He just states with complete confidence that they are utterly innocent and she is utterly cruel (she blew off a reconciliation visit). It could be true but sounds too simple.
Anyway, I really don't want to get enmeshed in the details of it...but I am aware his sons talk to M constantly about her and her being difficult, and though he says he's just very upset about their "suffering" because of her, I find myself thinking he's unconsciously enabling and feeding off their dislike of her.
It just felt to me that he was a martyred victim, bashing the mother of his sons to entertain two women he didn't even know well, and monopolizing as though we were all dazzled coeds at his brilliant knee.
I
did
not
like
it
at
all.
I wrote him later and expressed that I would feel less uncomfortable if he even said anything acknowledging her worth and dignity as a flawed human being. He wrote rationally but without feeling about her beauty, intelligence and being "personable" and that they'd had a happy early marriage. But then refocused on the ugly end of it and her terribleness. All may be correct, but I think he's not seeing how it might feel as a woman and a feminist woman to have listened to him talk about her that way, especially on a social occasion. I found it inappropriate and was very uncomfortable. Something about maybe trying to make women like you by trashing another woman with just one side of a story really sticks in my craw.
I felt withdrawn from him today and when he called tonight with his usual sweet murmury talk, I didn't feel our usual connection.
It's a difficult moment. We usually can talk through things but this one worries me. In case it's symbolic of some overall lack of empathy or dismissal of opinions or perspectives that don't fit his narrative. (He is always absolute in his confidence about ideas, all that...) I don't THINK so because he's so kind and generous and attentive and crazy about me, all of that...but for the first time, I feel unsure.
Tomorrow night I go there for dinner and we'll talk. I hope to hell we have a serious talk and he doesn't just blow off my thoughts. I do not want to be involved in his boycott or blaming of his ex. He had another --happy-- marriage in between, fer godsake. But I don't want to listen to him bashing her like that any more. It's not sitting right for some gut reason, and I definitely consider it a pink flag.
Thanks for listening,
Hops
lighter:
Sorry, Hops.
I don't have enough info to chime in here, but I do know how it feels to need people to understand the true essence of what happened in a relationship where one person manufactures chaos and destruction while others try to limit and heal the chaos.
You don't know if the ex was abused, or if she's driven her kids away with PD behaviors that are truly impossible to live with. You don't know if she's been abusive to the kids, for that matter.
I do appreciate the pink flag of someone, anyone blaming everything on the ex. There's always a part we play, and it's nice when everyone steps up and owns what's theirs, kwim?
Then again..... children suffering, bc of PD behaviors, is a touchy subject for me. I never understood it. Can't abide it. It sort of makes me crazy, and maybe there's a little bit of crazy going on for M on that topic too? I can see wanting to strike out at her, verbally, and doing so when he's thinking about the kids. It's upsetting. People get upset about it. They SHOULD be upset, IME. Torture other adults, but don't harm the kids.
It sounds like you have a charismatic man, who likes attention. It sounds like he's used to commanding a room, and that it's nice most of the time, but not always. There will be sweet and sour moments, unfortunately. No one's perfect. Everyone deserves the break we'd like to have for ourselves. Love is about embracing everything... the negative qualities as well as the positive ones. We can't have just the lovely aspects of a partner, and they get our whole package too.
Again, I'm sorry the first flag is waving, but encouraged you're communicating. Working on feeling better about it seems like a good idea.
Lighter
Twoapenny:
You are a wise and sensible woman, Hops, and you and M will have a proper conversation about this, I'm sure. My thoughts, for what they're worth -
You have no fear about bringing this up with him - that's a good sign.
If this incident indicated a generalised attitude towards women/other people/his own sense of self importance/abuse etc - I think you would have seen it long before now.
I think abuse and abusive relationships are always difficult and can be seen from different angles - in many cases there isn't a clear right and wrong. Many people describe my mum as a lovely lady - she's always been lovely to others because it's part of the way she gaslights and convinces people I'm nuts and making everything up. Relationships from years ago change in people's minds over time; we all forget things or even start to see things differently as we learn more in life. It might be that he's stuck on some aspect of this (I'm blown away sometimes when I realise I've still got a nugget in me over a chance remark some bloke made to me thirty years ago - sometimes we just don't realise). This might be his flaw or achilles heel, that part of him that isn't great, glossy, fun, uplifting - we all have those. But I think the important thing is that you are both able to talk freely about this and separate out what happened many years ago from how things are now.
It's good that you're assertive enough to pick up on what makes you feel uncomfortable, verbalise it and are confident enough to discuss it with him. And from what you've said he'll be able to listen and respond, and it strikes me that he'll be honest rather than just telling you what you want to hear? That's just the sense I've had from what you've told us about him - he seems like an honest guy, rather than a flattering one?
Let us know how it goes. In a way I think it's a good thing, Hops - there has to be a bit of a reality hit when you start seeing someone, because we've all got our flaws and dark secrets. I think what's good is that you're both assertive and intelligent enough to discuss things openly and without fear. xx
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