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Hopalong:
I don't know for sure, Lighter, what I'm unconsciously doing. But I do have faith that with this perceptive T, I'm gradually finding out.

Short of labels (PD, codependent), off the top of my head what comes are just some honest adjectives: I'm quite lonely so attention from a new friend who kind of "claims" me in a dominating way feels comforting. Especially a new female friend. (I've yearned my whole life for a kind sister.) So my discernment is often pretty late to the party.

What's new for me is realizing I can do better, recognize stuff in myself or others earlier that might lead to unhealthy attachments. I'm not sure, but feel as though I'm entering a stage of life where I might do better at that.

Wounded people can attract wounded people. I don't mind that because I think they also can heal each other.

I'm not perfectly healthy or balanced so neither are all the people in my life. I'm okay with that too. In some ways, people who wear some wounds feel safer to me than those who appear almost flawless or aggressively "normal." There's the poet thing too -- outliers by nature.

Insanity is a sane response to living in an insane culture, is an exaggerated thing I've heard before, that always made sense to me.

hugs
Hops

sKePTiKal:
HUH... what CB said - about having sisters in our FOO background might be some sort of key here, to unlocking a deeper bit of buried treasure. (Running off to ponder, research & play with another new idea/concept....)

:D

My friend Deb - has been exceptionally busy taking care of her ailing mom. I've given her space this last year; not making demands on her time - but just set up a lunch date for next week. Her schedule has to be brutal between full time care of her mom (she has LPN training; and has recently added hospice help) and her full time job. Due to Covid, her office has been halved and people work alternating weeks - that's been helpful to her at this time.

Hol's friend M, who lost her partner last year (Hol's boss) - has been rejecting a lot of Hol's invitations, requests to chat, etc. Hol is giving her space... and starting to have difficulty with it...but I'm starting to question if that compassionate instinct is the opposite of M wants/needs.... I'll run that past Hol. Perception can get in the way of understanding, sometimes. M is spending lots of time with others in that same group of friends.

It's my longstanding friend (50+ yrs now!) V, that was very much like my sister back in school. We're both strong personalities - and have kinda lived our lives with the other as a mirroring friend. And very distant now, too. For a long time. We don't talk often to each other. But when we DO... we chatter on just like we're still that close. She called once when B was here. LOL. Odd synchronicity... but we still babbled for an hour. It works for us.

In both of my friendships, I don't ask for much; often. But, both of them were there for me in a big way when Mike died, without a lot of prompting. And vice versa, when they needed. We can, at times, operate on the intimate level. (and that might be part of what Hol is missing right now, too). My friendships with guys are a whole different animal. I've had guy friends - no romance component at all - since grade school.

Maybe that's the key to these friendships, just finding what works well enough for both of you? And maybe that doesn't get agreed on until a certain level of intimacy/vulnerability exists and has been tested & trusted? I'm probably the least experienced in this area of our little group here. So I'm just brainstorming from what I think I understand.

Twoapenny:
You are going through accelerated learning, Hops!  Wow, that is so good to read.  And it doesn't sound (from what you have written) that the revelations are feeling terribly painful?  It sounds as if the learning isn't tearing huge holes in your heart, which is a good thing.  We all know what it can feel like to suddenly realise a painful truth and how bad that can be.  I'm so pleased for you, and hope that the silly comment your friend made about you gossiping (I can't imagine anyone less likely to gossip, to be honest) isn't taking up space in your head.

A couple of things struck me as I was reading through the posts.  One was what Skep just mentioned, about friendships needing to be whatever it is you need them to be, and the true nature of them not really being known until some tough patches have been negotiated (I'm paraphrasing, but towards the end of Skep's last post).  I do think that's very true.  I've had some wonderful friends over the years who vanished as soon as things got tough for me.  They just couldn't cope, but if the situation with my son hadn't developed I'm quite sure I'd still be very good friends with them now.  I think sometimes you don't really know how people will be until a tough situation comes along, whether it's on their side or yours.

The other thing I've noticed in myself, and I wondered whether it has any truth in it for you as well, is that I don't really feel it's okay for me to not like someone or want to hang out with them if they're being nice to me, especially if they offer to do things for me.  I kind of feel (and I know it's silly) that I only have the right to not want to spend time with someone if they've done something awful.  I feel like I need to justify it to myself.  I've noticed it because someone I've not heard from in ages turned up one day last week and I pretended to be out, and now I'm putting off phoning her (she put a note through the door).  We used to be friends but I just don't feel it any more and I don't feel like I want to put any time in to the situation with her.  Yet I feel I ought to, because she came round and put a note through the door.  So I've been working myself into a tizzy justifying my reaction to myself (I mean talk about creating work for myself - why can't I just not bother and not give a crap??!).  But I realised that just not wanting to is perfectly okay, it's just that I'm not wired to think that way, if that makes sense.  Anyway, I only thought I'd mention it in case it rang a bell with you :) 

Hopalong:
Sooooo helpful, and so interesting, all.

Skep, I think V is very lucky and vice versa -- it sounds like a fantastic friendship. I also think it's lucky that you bond so comfortably with men and have that whole other universe of energy and building focus with many. You really do know who you are and what makes you happy. That's a big piece of all this too, not focusing on judging yourself or others, just getting on with what you enjoy and has value for you, for your unique life, your own individual interests, etc.

Sounds super healthy to me.

Tupp, it might've been on your home thread, but I really perked up when you talked about boundaries, and the intense discomfort you feel about setting them.

I think that's a key reminder for me too. If I don't SPEAK how I feel and what I want/need (using "I statements") then I live in uncertainty and anxiety. As I do learn to speak up more and more confidently, I lose some people's interest but others who don't take things personally just accept and it doesn't always break a connection, it can sometimes strengthen one.

The other thing is when I SPEAK, it's not always going to be about a negative (I need to NOT be asked this or not listened to or not called or whatever) ... it can be about a positive. E.g., I'm finding I want to spend more energy on what works or could work. I'm really enjoying some creative ideas about ____, I'm eager to have a good walk more regularly, want to join on Wednesdays?, etc whatever.

I've sometimes tied myself in knots trying to manage another person's emotions as well as my own. I'm not doing that anywhere near as often any more. I don't any longer believe I can change how other people feel. I can witness it with compassion (or boredom, sometimes) -- but I don't have to fix it. The sun will still rise.

It's a biggie, because like you, I spent years wanting to help so much that I'd exhaust myself. And that was a boundary violation in itself, because I hadn't set appropriate boundaries around MYSELF. My focus needed to shift from the other to myself. The person I'm most responsible to. The person who most needs to hear me and be kind and calm.

If I SPEAK on my own behalf, kindly and calmly, then whatever another person does with that information isn't mine to worry about. I'll get some disappointing responses, some kind ones, some neutral ones, and on it goes. Info in, info out.

Maybe self-talk is really the core thing. For those who've been abused, abandoned or harmed early on, someone else's voice once drowned out our own. But as we continue to heal and grow, maybe we'll start to hear our own voices as the kind and calm, trustworthy true north.

Other people can understand or not, approve or not, help or not. But nobody else can deafen us to our own voices. We just have to listen to ourselves, and trust ourselves. Somehow, we each know who we are and what our stories mean and what we want to reach for. Information overload, especially judgemental information, isn't helping. I believe our own kind, calm inner voices will.

(Pretty obvious I've made myself a new mantra, huh: kind and calm. I'm liking that today!)

hugs
Hops

PS Random afterthought:
We don't have to earn our own love. It's inside. We can listen to it. Changes all.

Hopalong:
YES, CB!

Reciprocity is a golden mean for me.

Not 50-50, that's unattainable.

But feeling there's an adequate/good-enough balance of mutual awareness, mutual recognition, mutual respect for the other's life (time, plans, stresses, needs).

Whatever percentage someone needs, is what it is. Hopefully we'll all get new chances to discover new relationships where all that is possible. Friendships or otherwise.

I am sad that M couldn't adapt to your (very reasonable) needs but so admiring that your love for each other never got destroyed over it.

hugs
Hops

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