Relationship/s

[Hopalong]

((((((((CB)))))))))))

I am beyond grateful for you too.
You have been a lovely lodestar for me for so long.

And thank you for speaking of my strength.
One of the loveliest things is to hear it and believe it.

I have to process anxiety when it comes, by just super-verbalizing
until I've pounded it all into a shape I can work with. The last two
days have just been about that, really, and I feel stronger now because
of it.

Sending you and your kids much love, comfort, courage. I know they
have a lot of their mother's resilience and intelligence, and hope they
all stay healthy and wise. You made great people and you ARE a great person.

When you can, update us more on how you're coping, job, and your provisions.

love
Hops

[Hopalong]

Zoom T-session with M coming up in a few hours.

I've realized it's pretty simple what I need today. I need to tell them, I think there are only two things for me that I need to work in our relationship. Listening, and empathy. Can you (T) help us with those?

When I fell the other day, in those seconds of pain and shock on the floor, one of my first flash-thoughts was, better not tell M. That's not new, but it was a simple re-stating of a truth: he is not a comfort, emotionally, because his focus becomes instantly about himself, his role, or his feelings if it's serious. I would shortly turn to writing a close friend about how it happened and how I felt. Later, when M called, after his usual huge waterfall of lengthy talk about himself, he said, "Oh how did it go with friend's visit today?" Then I got to briefly tell him it was very nice being outside with her, and then told him about my fall, in a brief description. He didn't seem interested and asked zero questions. Shortly he said, "It'll be fine" and switched right back into talking about himself again. That was it.

I told him the next day that I had felt disappointment, that what I'd really needed was some empathy. He said I do feel empathy, that's why I said I'd bring you anything you needed. Classic male socialization, I know...to do actions, to be dutiful. And that's valuable. I appreciated the offer, and told him, I'd like a big salad, and he brought one by, and we sat on the porch in the sun and I was very glad to see him.

It was very similar to how I felt with the stroke. In the moment of crisis, I need to avoid him, because he makes it all about himself and how he feels or sees himself in his role as the one in charge. But the very next day, with him sitting in my hospital room, I was overwhelmed with gratitude for his support.

It was interesting to figure out the difference. What I yearn for is a partner who can offer empathy AND practical support. M only has practical support, dutiful actions, to give. He just doesn't do empathy.

In the post-fall conversation, I tried to explain to him what I'd needed was any kind of empathic interest, that it might appear in comments or questions like:
Ow! That must've hurt!
Did you think you broke anything?
You must've been scared, falling alone.
I'm sorry that happened.

He just said, I do feel empathy, which is why I said I'd bring food.

I believe him. I believe he believes that taking action or stating he will, IS empathy. And it's churlish of me to complain about what else I need/want, but it also brings me a lot of clarity. And helps guide me about where to go in our shared therapy.

My guess is, M will feel defensive. He's already pushed back by saying that his reactions in these situations ARE empathy and doesn't engage or respond to anything I describe that is what I think is empathy. (He'll write me emails about how he is there for me and will do anything I need and loves loves loves me...he is VERY focused on loving in his writing, just not behaviorally in the present). But in person, when I mention it, he disengages, looks away while looking a little irritated, and to me, demonstrates that he is not going to look within.)

So I'm going to be very careful to not make it a criticism of him. Just tell the Sikh, I think we have differences in what we need. M needs most my intellectual, conversational companionship. I enjoy that part of our relationship a lot, but think other parts would grow deeper if we also dealt with listening and empathy. Can you help us with that? Or do I need to accept that it is what it is, we're both doing the best we can, and if I need listening or empathy, I should just continue to get those needs met with other people?

I think that might be a good approach. It's honest and it's not blaming.

Fingers crossed...

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

I hear you, Lighter:

This is going to be about you, Hops, changing how you view M's behaviors rather than M learning to change all the things pinging off warning bells

There's a little bit of unreality in that for me, though. It'll take some time and some more months of single-T and joint-T sessions, probably. But what I am asking my wisest inner self (hellloooo! please come back sooooon!) is this: If M's behaviors ARE warning bells of the personality disorder I was raised to be drawn to and most dread, then perhaps I should NOT change how I view his behaviors.

If I am over-reacting (layering it over Nmother trauma memories as you astutely mention) then you are right. My goal then would be to de-escalate it and remove its "charge." In my own T work and inner work. So I can stay with M.

It's not really a binary choice. My challenge, I believe, would be to find out how deeply and how much his N-ish (I am VERY confident using that adjective, with the "ish") behavior distresses me because of its emotional impact on me. Are we truly a good fit?

If it bothers me only a little now and then, and I should look at it with fond benevolence--oh, the little Nboy is acting out, I don't have to react...then the answer's pretty easy. Most of the time I enjoy his company, even though I find him extremely self absorbed. Maidenly [edit: Maddeningly! I HATE AUTOCORRECT! LOL!] , at times.

If it bothers me so much it shakes me to the core and keeps me awake all night (has quite a few times), maybe I do have to react proactively in my own self-interest. When I feel strong I can fight for myself. Then there are times I wish I didn't HAVE to be so strong, to be in this relationship. I'd like to feel safe just being however I feel, with him.  I agree with everything you've said, Hops.  And you shouldn't have to fight all the time in any relationship, IMO. 

SEEING what's true is the goal, I agree. 

IF it's just the little N boy acting up, not all the time, and you responding without emotional charge, calmly, not disturbed to the core and up for nights..... that's a truth worth knowing.

IF he's like your mother, and won't change, and actually requires you be upset, bc that's part of his need to feel OK.... that's an important truth, but I don't know it's the truth.  He seems not very aware of your reactions...... but you'd know better than me.

I will say this, though you know it already.....
this discomfort you're dealing with is a message... you need to make a move.  I don't know what moves will resolve it, and restore serenity.  I only know that messages sometimes feel like THE PROBLEM, when they're just discomfort we're meant to deal with and I you're one person focused on figuring that discomfort out and fixing it to the best of your ability, whatever that looks like. 

I don't sense fear or confusion.  I sense reactivity... we all deal with that.... and I sense your happiness when things click with M.... when you aren't stuggling and working too hard to make it OK.

 

My goal isn't so much to be right or in control of everything, as it is to be wise. One friend I've talked about it with sees how much I do NOT want to live on guard, always strategizing my emotional safety, tense about defending boundaries he ignores, and ever-ready to detour around his passive-aggressive stuff during times of tension. There are simply times, particularly as I age, when I would be quite vulnerable to his attitudes and his choices. And I want to be wise around whether M is someone I can trust with my vulnerability long-term.  There's an answer to that, Hops.  It's a solvable puzzle.  You'll figure it out, and feel grounded and right about that decision, no doubt. 

So far, even after a year and a month, I'm not sure. But it ain't over. I am pretty convinced this is not about the pandemic, but sure as hell is converging with that fear too.  It's one more stress on top of other stressors, Hops.  Maybe it's what gets you to the answers more quickly with more speed. 

Just called him as he'd asked. This usually happens when I place the call. He answers hello? And immediately, instantly, launches into a long monologue of whatever he's stored up. It can go on nonstop for 10-15 minutes. Eventually, he remembers to ask about me. I am not sure how interested he actually is, but he manages that courtesy better than he used to.

Well.... he's improving, for what that's worth.  What is it worth?  How does it feel?  Heavy or light?

About the chattering like a deranged monkey with zero ability to control himself... I have experience with similar monkeys.  I had a talk with one of those monkeys lately and we both agreed that monkey just needed to vent, and be heard.  I didn't need to answer, give advice, problem solve or take my mind out of my own business while the monkey chattered.  Some monkeys need to process verbally and touch base with their rocks.  I guess you're one of or THE rock for M. 

I'm curious.... what do discussions around this sound like with him, if you'd brought it up?  Would be be cool with you just being there, not really investing in the conversation?  Just letting him unload so you can both go back to your day feeling OK?

Or would be be upset you aren't participating, giving advice and making him FEEL better by suggesting this and that?  I couldn't do that, Hops.   Especially if I felt I would be punished for taking care of myself, and not him. 

M needs to want you to be OK too.  He needs to make that possible, facilitate where he can and not punish you in any way.  I really think the true measure of a relationship is in how we respond to not getting what we want.  Do we still want happiness and health for our loved one or do we go out of our way to F them up and make them sorry?  Is that what M does?  In any way? 

For me that's a huge red flag.  People should still be able to be kind, or at least not lash out when they aren't happy with us all the time.  You wouldn't lash out at him or punish him.... you're taking care of yourself.  That might feel like punishment to him, but there's a huge difference, IME. 

What I remember, growing up with them-thar fancy telephones...was an etiquette that, when someone calls YOU, you say Hello, and then how are you? Or, what's goin on? Or such. IOW, a person calls someone to speak to them. With M, the unwritten rule is, someone calls me so I can speak to THEM, and he instantly launches into it. So he speaks first and most, and I get to tag on my own story sometimes, and shorter.  I think waiting for a chance to speak, rather than listening, is a universal problem most people suffer, to a greater or lesser degree, IME. 

M has it to a greater degree, always has, it's not personal TO YOU.  I have friends who do that.  I have friends who sort of do that.  I have friends who are sorry when I point it out, but they don't get a whole lot better about it.   

I think part of the problem, for me, is I'm an engaged listener who enjoys listening very much.
 That steers habits in a certain direction... I train people, I admit it.  I'm trying to do a better job, and things seem to be going very well with Mossing L.  A back and forth, lots of interest for both of us. 

You're going to have to train M to be a better listener,  IMO.  Set some ground rules about your time to speak and his time to listen.  My mother always said men are trainable or not trainable, and she ended up in an amazing partnership with a really nice man, BUT SHE HAD TO STAND HER GROUND with him.  And she did.  Without any reactivity.  It was always a response she felt entitled to and perfectly capable of delivering, which she did.  And they'd scrap a bit, then go back to playing like kittens together in their life. 

Scrapping is a part of life, IMO.  Those who don't scrap or have arguments are more likely to fail in marriage, or so I hear. 

You're working on the important things.

You're worth the time and effort and expense to M. 

He seems to be worth it to you.

How's it going with the lovely couple's T?

Lighter

Oh, so familiar. You're right about that!

Hugs
Hops

PS She also said something that surprised me: that the widespread belief that people who are Ns or have many N-behaviors never ever change, is based on old research. That was an optimistic thought. NOT (hah) that M would have a wholesale personality transplant (I wouldn't want that anyway) but that she doesn't automatically assume he could never change any of his most triggering behaviors toward me. He is highly motivated to make our relationship last (even more than I am, because I am willing to leave). And I think she was suggesting that it's perhaps more useful to think about him in terms of him being profoundly insecure, rather than fixate on the N term. (She mentioned his deep insecurity. Not that I can't ever use the N ism vocabulary, but that other language for what he does is insecurity. I will find out if he can practice empathy, at least enough of it, with me.)

The couples-T, the Sikh, is kind enough to come to my back yard tomorrow, to do an outdoor session with us on my private back patio, since M has declared he feels "unsafe" going into the office building. I told her I had wondered whether it was really the virus he was scared of, or was it continuing a challenging conversation we had last time. She instantly said she thought it was the latter. I do too, but since M had already met with me in my back yard, and I assured him he would always be six feet away from the T, and he would be touching nothing the T had touched, he was safe. I think he has no excuse to wiggle out of it, so he's coming.

[Hopalong]

Lighter, thanks much!
I confess I do get lost in all the small blue ink...if you return to a thread you've previously gotten into (which I appreciate!) could you change ink colors for the later pass?

Hope that made sense!

Must go shower/wash hair before Zoom T appointment.
The good news is, no need to shave legs.

HAH!

Hops

[Hopalong]

Thanks, (((((CB)))))).

The session with Sikh went extremely well. I was honestly amazed. I approached it all with statements about how I didn't assume I was being fair, and insights I'd gotten about the overlap I felt between M and my NMom, and how I still want to stick up for myself, and the various emotional difficulties I have (at times) with his uncontrollable need to start talking and keep talking and basically, take up all the oxygen, so I wind up feeling like a submissive, deflated balloon, and just don't have the energy to fight for my turn at the mike.

What really surprised me was the T's skillful questioning of M, which brought forth the very helpful insight that M has a Very Hard Time calming himself, when he's been listening to news or whatever, and changing channels to actually be present with me. His first instinct is to UNLOAD, and he does that in a compulsive, heedless way, that often leaves me feeling resentful, because I've assumed (long training with NMom) that there's just no point trying to be heard.

The T suggested I learn to say, M can you get calm for a minute, so we can connect? Or something like that. Basically, T was saying, Hops, you need to SPEAK UP when it happens. And he's right.

T also said a lot of insightful things about how M has always and for many years been rewarded for being masterful, taking charge, fixing everything. And that's true.

Anyway, it was a wide ranging conversation, but even on Zoom, I think we were all pretty happy afterward.

I felt less judgmental of M, more tender toward us both, and more hopeful.

It was a big relief. I think one difference was I stopped being careful about saying what I really feel, like: 'I want to talk FIRST sometimes!"

I spelled out how I'd realized if I feel vulnerable, I imagine contacting friends for comfort, not him, and how I'd like to figure out whether M can get to empathy in the moment that isn't all about him playing his heroic roles, but not hearing me at the same time. I got the clarification for me which is, in the MOMENT of crisis, M does not  help or can make me feel worse, but the day after, when the MAINTENANCE of support kicks in, he's so into that.

T also gave us perspective that this kind of thing is changeable, but takes tiiiiiiiime. I felt relieved and better about everything....at the least, willing to keep on exploring all this with M.

I gotta say, I feel incredibly, incredibly lucky that by happenstance, my own T gave us this name in a list of suggestions for a couples-T...and we wound up choosing the Sikh.

Everybody should have their very own Sikh! I like him so very much--he's crazily perceptive. M feels the same way about him....and that joint appreciation of our T bodes well for us, I think.

hugs
Hops

[Meh]

A Sikh as a therapist, that's pretty cool maybe.

Out of what you wrote this is the one thing that jumps out at me:  "if I feel vulnerable, I imagine contacting friends for comfort, not him".

[Hopalong]

Yep. He'll say or do anything, in terms of taking action: bring food when I'm sick, fix something if it's broken, help me in all sorts of practical ways. What he doesn't demonstrate is emotional empathy in the moment of vulnerability. The day after, when maintenance of a crisis kicks in, he's unbeatably helpful.

Described it just that way today and the T told him, all your life you've been in a powerful reward system that's rewarded you for taking charge, producing, doing and acting. What Hops is asking you for is being: with her pain or her feelings, in the present.

T also said that even in their seventies, people can learn empathy. He doesn't believe M has none, but that his life taught him it was just the other things that had value. But that teaching M this is going to take tiiiiiiiime.

Listening, we talked about too. I described his frantic talk and he and the T talked about how M finds it very difficult to wind himself down. It felt helpful and practical.

I'm encouraged. If therapy continues to be this valuable, things could turn out well.

Hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

I'm always amazed at how well you can pick up and talk about very specific points, Hops, and how dedicated you are to talking through them, and I am also glad and impressed that M is sticking with it, engaging in the process and listening to things that must prickle him a bit, even though they are true.  The T sounds like such a good fit for you both and it is quite amazing that there is the tech now to have that group meeting without being in the same room.

I know that you have a research background so this may be something you've researched before and were not impressed by or may have even found out unpleasant stuff about, but I didn't know so I thought I would mention it - I was introduced to Bach Flower Remedies by a therapist I was seeing twenty years ago and I've used them ever since.  I've never done any research into them because I just felt they helped from the outset and I never bothered, to be honest   But anyway, I was dosing myself up this morning and reading the description of a person who may benefit from 'Heather' and M popped into my head as I read it:

'.....there is an almost compulsive need to talk about themselves.  They always need an audience and have an irresistible urge to off-load everything that happens to them.  If there is no-one at home they'll talk on the phone for hours, most of the sentences starting with 'I'........'

I'm paraphrasing a bit but it just chimed with what you've mentioned previously and I thought I would mention it just in case M would like to buy himself a bottle and have a little go with it, but of course feel free to ignore completely if it doesn't suit   I'm glad the T sessions are going well and hope you can get to a point with him where he feels like the port in the storm more than he feels like the storm xx

[Meh]

Aww that's awesome Hops. Glad you both are getting something out of it.  "T also said that even in their seventies".

Life long learning it sounds like.

[Hopalong]

That Heather remedy description is amazingly spot on, Tupp. Thanks for that!
I would love for M to try something but unless it's evidence-based, he won't go there. I have to admit I'm pretty similar, about homeopathy and such. I believe it's all placebo, not that there's anything wrong with that!

Thanks, G. Learning is ongoing, definitely. I remember some of the folks in their 90s I worked with sharing realizations they'd had in very recent years. It was inspiring.

Hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

That Heather remedy description is amazingly spot on, Tupp. Thanks for that!
I would love for M to try something but unless it's evidence-based, he won't go there. I have to admit I'm pretty similar, about homeopathy and such. I believe it's all placebo, not that there's anything wrong with that!

Thanks, G. Learning is ongoing, definitely. I remember some of the folks in their 90s I worked with sharing realizations they'd had in very recent years. It was inspiring.

Hugs
Hops

Perfectly understandable, Hops, I'm the same re placebo - if it works it doesn't matter how, from my point of view   I'm glad the therapy is going well and you're making such good progress xx

[seastorm]

Hi Hops

Last I heard you were applying for a passport just before the full catastrophe of the Corona Virus hit. Hope you had a nice time and got home safely. These are tumultuous times with lots of change. I kind of like staying home.. taking a course in Chinese Painting, Online Pema Chodron, binge watching Ozark  and talking on the phone for about two hours a day, most days. I am adjusting and sleeping and meditating. All very much one day at a time.Oh yes, and learning not to take the bait when a beloved tries to pick a fight.

[Hopalong]

((((((((Sea!)))))))))))))

So wonderful to hear your voice. YAY.
You sound like you know exactly what to do when the outer world goes nuts, as you always have.

I'm so happy to hear you.

My passport app was actually before last summer, when M. took me to Paris. Made it (after a small stroke a few days before!) and visited an old friend in Oslo on the way home. Quite astonishing that all that worked out so well, actually.

I love the sound of your quarantine coping. It's more than coping.

My hope is many people will turn to deeper things during this time.

love,
Hops

[Hopalong]

I am all over the map about M these days.

First, we're getting along very well during quarantine. A lot less tension. He seems to have listened during therapy to my descriptions of how hugely stressful I've found his manic, nonstop talking. He's calmer when I visit, less performative, easier to be around. And though he doesn't listen WELL, he's trying more. That's new but very nice!

Quarantine has slowed us down. I talked about how I think we had needed that. From the start of our relationship, M pounded me relentlessly to be his life partner, commit, etc. He's stopped it and the pandemic has jolted him into the present more, me too, and that's a good thing. He's also enjoying very productive work on his articles and a new major book.

In times of anxiety, I still chew on the bad moment we've never unpacked yet. Will be hard to bring it up in T but I will eventually. It was that moment at the jungle house when I had upset/frustrated him (and felt very vulnerable) and he kind of walked around "musing aloud" in a cold way, saying negative things about my character and intentions, but disguising them in the professorial superiority tone. I've never heard it since but at that moment I freaked out, believing I was seeing a different side that could come out during marriage. I will discuss that with my own T today, as she's good at helping me see things clearly. I think I just need to get up the courage to say something like, although with your intellect you're capable of slicing and dicing someone in that sort of cold fashion, if you ever do that with me again when I'm in a vulnerable state and you're annoyed, I will be leaving.

I don't THINK he's a Jekyll-Hyde, really. But my second husband absolutely was, so hence my niggling concern about that. Which may not be entirely warranted.

I do have fears of men and relationships in general. Trust issues. This has come up in couples-T and I think legitimately. The Sikh asked me if I'd ever felt entirely safe in a relationship...and my answer was, more than once, with my father I did.

So after we "worked on" M a whole lot, given his overt dominant manic personality stuff, it's my turn to look at what I'm contributing to our dynamic too. And I feel willing to, because I've been feeling heard by both of them.

In general, I think the update is that we are doing a lot better. I'm glad we slowed down a bit. The commitment is there, but not the urgency.

Though I have to admit I emailed with a lovely young classical musician who'd be quite interested in renting my house. Occurs to me that one way to pass this winter in continuing social distancing, but to prevent isolation, might be to spend it at M's house, and rent mine out for a year beginning this fall. Just to see how living together might go. I haven't said anything to M about it though.

Boy would that give me a chance to face my fears....

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

I'm glad that the enforced halt has been helpful, Hopsie, and that you feel you can/will talk about that unpleasant time at some point.  I think it's great that you and M have done and are doing so much work on your relationship and yourselves.  And yes I can understand the underlying fear about relationships in general.  I'm not sure I can ever trust someone with my whole heart.  It may just be that the damage will always mean a little bit isn't quite there.  But as you've felt safe before then I would be hopeful that you will again

My heart quickened as I read about the young musician; I thought this was a love interest!  Lol.  I think the idea of trying it out with M by sharing for a year is a good one.  My only wee practical concern (with my own mother hen head on, and acknowledging that your rental rules and regulations may be very different to ours, and knowing that you are wise enough to check all of these things out for yourself anyway) is whether you can get your house back early if staying with M does turn out to be the clang of doom for your relationship, or just if there is another bolthole if you feel you need some space and just need a day or two on your own every now and again?  Can M leave his house empty and move in with you (and then go home if it's all a bit much?).  You will figure it all out, I know, I just always go to disaster scenario and have images of you living in a campervan over the winter   Lol xx