Relationship/s

[Hopalong]

VERY good question about a potential bolthole, Tupp. That's my hesitation, a fear of being trapped if it goes south. No, don't have one I can think of, and especially during the pandemic (second wave likely in fall) I don't feel I could impose on a friend. It also occurs to me that this idea (of moving there) could be an impulsive decision. I don't know. It might be a wise next step and would boost my savings account, but it also might be like the panicky premature house-hunting, an effort to get to the future and then relax. Hmmmmmm.....

M cannot move in with me. It's not an option. My second bedroom is also my study, which is private (again a tinge of trust, would he look through stuff?) and even though it also has a bed, because it's right behind my bedroom, his trumpet snoring would kill what's left of my sleep. My house would only suit a VERY close couple who sleep together; perfect for a YOUNG couple. And though I hope to be close one day, I'm never giving up my own room. Just been too long, and my sleep is too fragile. Sharing my sole bathroom would be challenge enough, but the lack of a dedicated bedroom for him that's at enough distance to mute the snoring is key. He once told me his late wife made him go sleep two floors down since the snoring was so intense.

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

VERY good question about a potential bolthole, Tupp. That's my hesitation, a fear of being trapped if it goes south. No, don't have one I can think of, and especially during the pandemic (second wave likely in fall) I don't feel I could impose on a friend. It also occurs to me that this idea (of moving there) could be an impulsive decision. I don't know. It might be a wise next step and would boost my savings account, but it also might be like the panicky premature house-hunting, an effort to get to the future and then relax. Hmmmmmm.....

M cannot move in with me. It's not an option. My second bedroom is also my study, which is private (again a tinge of trust, would he look through stuff?) and even though it also has a bed, because it's right behind my bedroom, his trumpet snoring would kill what's left of my sleep. My house would only suit a VERY close couple who sleep together; perfect for a YOUNG couple. And though I hope to be close one day, I'm never giving up my own room. Just been too long, and my sleep is too fragile. Sharing my sole bathroom would be challenge enough, but the lack of a dedicated bedroom for him that's at enough distance to mute the snoring is key. He once told me his late wife made him go sleep two floors down since the snoring was so intense.

hugs
Hops

Ah, yes, that makes a lot of sense, Hops, my house is so tiny that with another adult here (ie when a friend comes to stay) it is incredibly claustrophobic and there is no privacy or respite from snoring, coughing, farting, talking or anything else anyone is doing!  Yes that would be hard.

Well - don't rush into anything.  You have time to think and plan (and we may perhaps have more news about virus related things which may or may not have an effect).  It may be an impulsive decision but it also sounds like a good way to test the water a bit (a lot!).  Maybe talk it through with T?  Could you maybe stay with M a lot more without renting your place out so it's still 'visiting' rather than 'living together'?  His snoring does sound bad!  My friend snores a lot and although they are a close couple they both say the only reason they've stayed together is because they keep a second bedroom so that they don't always have to share   Lol xx

[sKePTiKal]

Well Hops... this is exactly what B & I have committed to, no more - no less, longterm. There are many things to fear in that, I agree.

I think you might start working out your side of things, in couples T, before actually MAKING a decision about it. But it would also be good to start hypothetically discussing how things would be expected to work, what possible pros & cons come up, imagining how it would feel living day to day - trying to communicate without pushing each other's buttons and learning a style of working out conflicts (which are inevitable) when they do crop up.

(((((Hops))))) you'll get inspired, pick a path, and go... and it will all be OK. (to quote Lighter's advice to me... LOL)

[Hopalong]

Tupp, truth is I have NEVER stayed overnight at M's. The one time I tried I bolted out of there with Pooch at midnight. He'd made zero preparation for me to be there and it was full of her religious books and I just could not sleep. He's moved the books out since but in the interim we had our Upstairs Disaster.

All that can change and will in time if the current trend toward more relaxed feelings around him and better communication continues, with our co-therapy. I am in zero rush and he's accepted a calmer pace too. Just the way it is for us at our age. No logical progression and we are still working out issues.

Talked it over (the moving-in idea) with my T yesterday and realized...yes, it was an impulsive idea. And renting my house out would block my easy return. I don't HAVE to make big drastic steps, and small incremental ones make a lot more sense right now. So regretfully, I'll inform the lovely musician he can check back in fall but as of now, it's uncertain I'll be ready to rent it out. Time will tell. And there are more lovely potential renters around here too. I tend to fixate on fantasies, no less for my house than for me!

What would make sense instead would be that this winter, I give staying over with M a few more tries and see if it goes better. I may broach the idea with him cautiously. I've even thought of asking him if he'd empty out the furniture in the bedroom and have it painted in the soothing soft blue I so love here. And maybe see if a bed I choose would fly as well. If he's super interested in sharing a home with me at some point, his responses might show me how much he really means it.

You're right, Amber, we're fumbling toward a path. And it's important to know as Lighter once pointed out, that I can turn back or turn in a different direction any time I should need to.

I think the renting idea was an impulse, not a plan. Glad I caught that before it went too far. Planning future lives around daydreams hasn't worked too well so far, but having plans and working toward them (as I did to get my own home) feels better.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Hops:

ONE bedroom of new paint and ONE new bed...... not the new home you fell in love with..... seems like a super reasonable request to help you feel more comfortable in M's space. 

SHARING space with M.

It's forward movement I anticipate M won't blink an eye at.

If I'm wrong.... the very nice T will help you figure it out,  I'm sure.

Is the blue you love one of those Restoration Hardware Store blues?  I just love them! 

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Thanks for the encouragement, Lighter.
No rush and we'll see, but I like your perspective.

Don't get me going! I LOVE color. My three favorites in my house currently (like the others too, but LOVE these three):
Sherwin Williams 6239  Upward (BR--most peaceful blue I've ever lived with)
SW 7649 Silver Plate (most other walls in public spaces)
Benjamin Moore Chopped Dill, #496 accent wall behind piano, happiest outcome)
The kitchen is a bizarre Caucasian-flesh-toned-Crayon before they figured out how racist it was. I had a sort of Arizona soft peachy sunset in mind. Hah! I enjoy it anyway.

When I was hunting up my paint sheet to share colors with you I found a document I'd written, What I'd Need to Move In with M, and it was pretty modest, but a list of changes I'd need to feel at home. And you're right, there's another spare bedroom too, which would be my study. But that wouldn't happen unless really Moving In.

That was fun.


Hops

[lighter]

Hops:

Whatever you discuss with M..... don't ask for it like you aren't deserving.

You are.

Just assume whatever you need IS what you'll receive and keep moving.

In other words, don't send the message you believe you're asking for something you don't deserve and aren't worthy of.  Your eyes, body language, and words should express confidence.

I LOVE ROBIN's EGG BLUE!  Maybe I'll make both bathrooms that lovely blue; )

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Lighter, thank you for this. I need to take on this. I am in fact going to talk about it with my T next week. You spotted something, pre-emptively, that really is an obstacle for me:

In other words, don't send the message you believe you're asking for something you don't deserve and aren't worthy of.  Your eyes, body language, and words should express confidence.

Much appreciated!

So far I just imagine asking him to empty the one bedroom, and paint. He is kind of a tightwad and would want us to paint it together. A few years back I would've happily done it myself, but right now my body and back are so triggery that I think all the bending would be zero pleasant. But I don't know that he'd be willing to have a painter in.

Speaking of which, I've been through some internal agonizing about getting some cleaning help again. One woman I like a lot has described in detail very responsible disinfection precautions she takes and I have found her trustworthy and thorough. Still, it's scary to have someone come into my home now, who also is in and out of other homes. I've booked her but am angry with myself for being so unfit that cleaning my own little house by myself is daunting (bending reaching lifting vacuuming) yet the grit the general decline is depressing.

I'm wondering if I should cancel and wait. The virus is increasing here, though nothing like a large city.

Sigh,
Hops

[Hopalong]

I just sent this to M, who responded both that "I'm working on it" and that "we all do it when we're enthusiastic about something or excited about the person we're talking to..." I responded that I've done it too but "everybody does it" might not be the deepest answer, and awareness never hurts. We'll see.

Dear Prudence,

My husband is an interrupter. He talks over me constantly, both when we are having a normal conversation and when we argue. I never feel like I can get my thoughts out. This has been going on for years, and I’m at my wits’ end. I feel like giving up. I feel disrespected. I’ve told him how it bothers me and how I feel unheard. I’ve even tried talking through his interruptions. Nothing works. I think he does it to silence me, but he argues that I have sometimes interrupted him in the past, so his isn’t any worse? I feel like I’d have to be perfect for him to even try. What should I do?

—Interrupting Husband

This situation sounds exhausting, interminable, and like a profound barrier to intimacy, trust, respect, and love—all the things that make a lifelong partnership desirable. Your husband is completely locked into his position and is attempting to use your request as a wedge to make demands of his own, rather than trying to meet you halfway. You do not need to spend another five or 10 or 20 years trying to argue with him about whether he’s disrespecting you. You can take him at his word when he says he’s not going to stop interrupting you, that he thinks you’re wrong to be upset by it, and that you don’t deserve to participate fully in everyday conversation because once on May 15, 2003, you cut him off when he was trying to give you directions to a friend’s birthday party. So many relationship problems can be worked out as both parties are willing—even if that willingness is small, or begrudging, or half-hearted—to call it a problem. But your husband is determined to maintain his position—that he doesn’t really interrupt you, or it’s not that bad, or you do it too—no matter how many times you’ve tried to ask and explain and plead and compromise. You can’t substitute for a lack of interest in changing on his part. You have my permission to give up, if that’s what you choose, and acknowledge that your marriage to this man is over in all but name. I think it will feel like a profound relief.

I also told M I didn't think he's responded like this husband, but wanted him to understand how it felt to that wife, and what the columnist said. I'm not thrilled with his "we all do it" response but told him I look forward to working on this with our joint T. And I am. It's the singlemost important obstacle we have, imo.

Not depressed about it, glad I sent it to him. We'll see how it goes...I think he deflected but also he shows up for therapy and behaves as though he's engaged.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

Thanks, CB, for the good examples of how to approach cleaning. An obstacle for me that's as big as the body issues is mental. My inertness. My flabby sedentaritude. I'm fighting that in fits and starts, but sense you've been consistently adult in your approach to taking care of home. That's a huge challenge for me I'm deliberatly working on in my own therapy.

As to painting, you're right! I don't quite know if I should wait for M to ask, what would you need to stay here? Or just bring it up myself. (As I don't expect him to ask, though he might well cooperate if I bring it up.)

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

....and I had an oatmeal pan on the stove with a melted spatula in it. She looked at me and said: oh. You don't give that kind of impression.

((((CB))))) Thank you for a Laugh Out Loud! Boy are THOSE precious these days.

Yup, from one clutterholic to another. You get it.

I will need an ottoman the size of my piano, but your post was verrrrry consoling.



love
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Seriously?

CB, I'm the "what if?" type too. Yes, I bought another 5 lb bag of flour, store brand, when it finally came back on the shelves... we've been baking, for something to do around here. And I have multiple stacks of things. Things I need to "see" - to remember to do later. Or things I need to do in the morning... or that need to go somewhere else. Half of my garage is the "what if?" pantry. LOLOL and it needs to be unpacked from moving 4 years ago and canned items that are long expired, composted. Just other priorities right now.

Combined with all the different things that the kids like to eat - I've lost almost all my kitchen counter space. (Another month... please contractors, please get it to the move in point!)

As for canvases. Ahem. The one that is now my first painting in 32 years... I bought before we moved to the beach. Hauled it there; hauled it back; finally unwrapped it... stared at blank canvas for two years; one of Holl's friends got me up and playing scribbles with charcoal... gesso'd it... stared at it... and it wasn't until every fiber in my body was totally pissed off and I was tongue-tied and scared to death to open my mouth... that the image jumped out onto the canvas. LOLOLOL.

[lighter]

Amber:

Your space reminds me of my space.  Counter space comes and goes.  Garage has groceries in it, waiting to be dealt with.  I like to have things out where I can see them too

I'm trying to leave counters clear, for working, not storing. Life is better when I swing it.

Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

Hops, something about what you said over on the yard thread pinged off of me. And where I'm at right now in relationship too.

Obviously, there is another tangled ball of emotional yarn to deal with, in any new relationship. Being carried along on the current of the feelings is often pleasant - and I've missed it, these last years. But the conditioned part of my experience & brain is trying to convince me that I "need" this man, this relationship... to be whole. I caught it going on in my head last night after watching Outlander's season finale - which had some very triggering storylines in it for me - and let it all unravel last night in sleep.

And I KNOW, with my practical, pragmatic brain, that conditioned "need" is absolute bullshit. Otherwise, how would I have managed on my own these last 5-7, maybe 8 years? Was I not "whole" then? YES, yes I was. And for all I was willing to invite Hol here - and participate in her work to get whole, as much as allowed and appropriate - that didn't take anything away from me. (Granted, I DID go through a time of being completely confused again. Talking to John - a less invested party who also knows Hol pretty well - has sorted that out now, again. We're able, most of the time, to have more objective dialogue.)

So, why with B would this reflex show up? To see myself as "less than" and needing what B can provide to be whole? (There's more than that specifically; but this is the general gist of the reflex.) And as far as I can tell - it's the conditioned expectation of finding that "completion" in relationship - both mirroring, complimentary strengths & needs and dare I say it? Subordination, if not quite submissiveness (who me? LOLOL; good luck with that). Yes, it's existed in all my other relationships to varying degrees. With Michael, it was more role-playing than reality... but damn, if it didn't get me into a mess every now & then. He needed so much ego-assurance at times, that it was all but impossible for me to refuse him that. Like letting win a chess game.

I don't want to do that again. Maybe there's more to learn about it - but jeez, I think I know enough now to not want to repeat those lessons! I can CHOOSE to do whatever I want. Including revelling in what I can do on my own - and as slow-paced as it has to be 20 years after I used to do this on a regular, daily basis. Taking a day off to just watch the yarn come untangled in the slow lazy current of water... letting B go to do what he needs to take care of; where he is in his process... and being just FINE, thank ya very much... having some me-time, too.

I think he & I are both realizing that this isn't going to be one of those siamese twin type of relationships; where we're joined at the hip all the time, because of our hearts. We don't WANT it to be. And so that sets up the comparison with "conditioned" fairy tale, white picket fence version, all the time.

All that came up for me, in words finally, when you were talking about your yard and not necessarily wanting/needing M to come "help". LOL. And with the help of a lot of coffee. LOL. Happy Sunday.

[Hopalong]

Yup, I can't see you on the cover of a bodice-ripper, Amber!
Or maybe I can, but it would be entire voluntary having-bodice-ripped, and not about swooning or helplessness or submission.

I think the key is to bear in mind one always has a choice to GIVE vulnerability. When vulnerability is TAKEN, though, that's submission. Taking turns with giving and receiving vulnerability is beautiful.

B doesn't sound like a ripper, but if he's got a kilt on....

Now I hafta go re-watch the last episode of Season 5.

Big hugs,
Hops

PS Actually I would LOVE it if M would help me, or take a hint now and then. But he seems allergic to spending a cent on my home. It may be an unconscious thing...maybe he wants me to ultimately move in with him, so why help me fix up my place? Or maybe he's still into stock market shock. I dunno. But there's no point in thinking about it, as I'm on my own.

Another thing about accepting too much help from him is that it becomes for him a delicious drama about his helpfulness. The price of his strutting through it is almost too high to pay at times. (That E.R. stroke story, and a few other times he's been the last presence I'd need in a crisis. The day after, when maintenance begins...he's very responsible and present and dutiful. Always proclaiming "I'll do anything you need!" It may be true but he just fills up the room with his take-charginess. That has value too, if one's helpless, but I fight it.)

The conundrum is, I'm going over for dinner tonight and greatly looking forward to being with him. Yet he was in my yard with me and my neighbor friend and bf last night and he interrupted so much (and I was too tired to contain it) that I yelled his name several times, startling him so I could finish my sentence. That whole pattern reeks of misery to me. I just hate having to FIGHT for the basic courtesy of not being cut off in the middle of a sentence, and raising my voice makes me unhappy.

He really does have a very loud voice in his own brain that drives him like a steam engine to dominate all conversation, especially in a social setting. Getting him to stop his racing monologue long enough to participate is exhausting at times. Other times, I relax with it and enjoy him. He is trying, and does listen a bit better when we're on our own now. But socially, I am literally embarrassed by his monologues.

All in all, apart from those two moments when I nearly blew, we had a great time with the neighbors. She is very similar to M in that she's charming, very insecure, and competitive. They both told stories that were diverting. I stuck my oar in a couple of times and mostly just became audience, and her bf didn't get a chance.

hugs
Hops