Relationship/s

[Hopalong]

Face is already half off, Lighter! LOL.
Hence the need to double up on walks-taking.

Thanks for this very excellent advice.
I will do my very best to tap into that reality-based behavior.

No fantasizing. Brain in gear. Detachment. Observation.
Information gathering. Accepting what is. No fantafoodle.

IcandoitIcandoit....
(and I suddenly have a date with Bidnessman. Surprising.)

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

OOOOoooo a date might just help shake the collywobbles, Hops.

Hugs, m'dear. Wine is not my thing; I was thinking of something a tad stronger for me. Business stuff is throwing me for a loop again. I need to not think about it while Freddy is growling at the squeeky little pest, Stinker. I need to get him his yarn ball.

[Hopalong]

Dang. Ready to hear it when you are.

So speaking of relationships, sounds like
Stinkerbell and Freddy need counseling.

Wonder what cat-couple-counseling would
look like? A lot of hissing, fur standin up,
not much cuddling?

Or maybe they'll surprise you with Purrs 'R Us.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Lots of growling & hissing & swatting... as Freddy teaches the little one to respect his elders. Purrr old guy, he looks at me so exasperated sometimes - right before cries or knocks on the door to be let out.

Stinker is starting to calm down... a little. Now if I could only convince him not to lick my face and wake me at 2:30 am........ Freddy's outside tent isn't big enough for the two of us. LOLOLOL.

Meh on business stuff right now. It's not pleasant; it's after hours; and I still am in a holding pattern while I decide how much I have to do.

[Twoapenny]

Thank you, Tupp. You are so very very sane and I hope you know how stabilizing you are. I'm wallowing around with a broken rudder and you're pointing out that I also have perfectly serviceable oars. !!!!

I was pondering what you said about "Hope is the enemy" and you're right. That's not true.

I think what I was trying to tell myself back then was more akin to "Fantasy is my enemy." I KNOW that's true, in love relationships. Because I have a Post-PhD in fantasizing (a poet/writer imagination, all very nice, but in romance it can go on steroids and be very unhealthy).

I had spent literally several years FANTASIZING about a beautiful future with the man. And belatedly, about the time Reality Friend turned up in my mind, I recognized that the writerly imagination was actually a danger in real life connections with men. Fantasy. Instead of taking in what was real and showing patience for it all to reveal itself.

M was ready to commit to everything after two months, with incredible amounts of love-hyperbole in writing that were seductive and dizzying. Plus his endless pressure. I dragged my feet throughout but wanted the fantasy, too. Eventually, my fantasies smacked into the reality of how it felt too often.

I still believe that for me as an individual, Fantasy is an enemy (in relationships). Not hope. Thanks for helping me notice that.

Sheesh. Wish I'd reminded myself of what I had once learned. But I guess some lessons, for me anyway, one has to learn more than once.

hugs
Hops

Hopsie, I've had a fantasy life running in my head ever since I was a little girl, about everything.  I think fantasy is something we can control and such a nice alternative to reality, which is often messy and confusing.  I have done the 'this is it, he's the one, oh my god I love him thing' with so many guys now, even without meeting them - just seeing a picture on a dating site can be enough.  And when Covid kicked off, I found myself contacting not one, not two, but three ex boyfriends, the story in my head being 'we got together again during the lockdown and even though we couldn't see each other we realised we still loved each other'.  They all ignored me, obviously, they always do after an initial polite reply but I think it can be a knee jerk thing when stressed or anxious (for me, at any rate).  So I do understand the fantasy thing.

I do feel I've got to the point where I can be more realistic and practical, though.  The mum I went walking with - she's nice but nothing more than that has come into my head yet.  I enjoyed the morning with her, would like to do it again but if not, it won't feel like a big rejection.  In the past it would have done and I'd have wondered what I did wrong and if I'd offended her and all sorts of things.  You know how it is.

With regards to Ms eagerness to commit so quickly - I was perplexed by the abrupt ending of a relationship, many moons ago, by a man who'd fallen head over heels for me as soon as we met (according to him) and who'd been very attentive and had driven many miles each week to spend time with me.  Comments were made about moving in together, never met someone who gets me like you do, can't believe I've been lucky enough to meet you, etc etc.  Three months of whirlwind relationship and he vanished, leaving only a very lengthy text message in which he listed all of my faults and annoying habits.  A male friend simply said to me that any guy who enters your life very quickly and dramatically is likely to leave in the same way and it's stuck with me ever since.  I keep it in my head now, and I've noticed with me it's the same with friends as well - the ones who tend to leave me in the lurch when things get tough are the same ones that initially do the reaching out and wanting to get together in the friendships.  It's weird, I don't know why people do it, but anyway, I keep it in mind now (by way of tempering my fantasies!).  All of that is really just saying "I hear ya" and you know, I don't think you need to analyse yourself in all of this.  I think perhaps you and M are just not a good long term match and it's not because either one of you did something wrong or has some sort of flaw, you just maybe don't have enough things in common (or enough of the most important things) to make it work long term.  I'm not sure if that makes sense, I'm tired and my brain feels wobbly lol xx

[sKePTiKal]

Non-sequitor comment.

Other people fantasize too. Maybe even more than I do. Some people don't know the difference between a fantasy and believing they can make it come true -- as if the other person involved doesn't have any thoughts, feelings or life outside of person A's fantasy. LOLOL.

It's not really funny; I see this a lot more than I used to. But I've learned that my fantasies are just that; when they come up I let them play out... and then take from it, what I "hear" in it that might be a clue to what I really desire. And then I push the off button and go back to dealing with reality again. Filing away what the fantasy might be telling me about my wants (and sometimes needs) for future reference.

In my case, I think my experience is weighted a lot more heavily toward the less pleasant things or work toward a result. So when I'm experiencing happy feelings, it's easy to let the fantasy machine wind up a new reel of images & sensations... letting the imagination build a whole world and life that only exists there. Eventually my inner critic chimes in - "AHEM!" and the dream bubble bursts and I get regrounded in my real life again. Or I'll start being self-conscious and feeling silly.

But I can't stress enough that there are clues to parts of ourselves embedded in those fantasies that can be REAL useful.

[Hopalong]

Y'all are so normal.
And you understand entirely.

I don't mean to do some absolute thing about what fantasy means...it's just something I realized that, for me individually, was like a team of Clydesdales taking off with the beer wagon, never to be seen on this planet again.

OUT of control, in other words. So though daydreaming and fantasizing is fun, in my case it really can be delusional or dangerous to my well being.

Oddly, M just called me, all perky, just wanting to "catch up" -- and then talked about himself when I had nothing much to say. He hasn't called me in many months (our only connection was infrequent email), so maybe he's acting out his new "It's not over" declaration.

I just stayed neutral and let him ramble on and confirmed I'd be there Tgiving, and thanks very much for the cleaner referral. Dull stuff. On purpose.

I have zero idea what he's really thinking personally but actually think y'all pretty much understand both him and me. (As in, he must be driving toward what he wants again...and from your perception, Amber, it's just what M does.)

I'm calm today though I turned down a couple friendvites because I don't know how to not talk about something that's top of mind and painful if I'm with someone I'm close to, and that just gets me upset all over again. I need to let it rest a bit. I have clarity now and Lighter's charge to stay objective is very important.

So to keep the distress in calm mode (much of which was actually already relieved by my meltdown and crying the other day) I'm watching dumb diverting flicks, eating, and hoping to tidy the house tomorrow. It may be lazy but feels like what I needed.

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Not lazy, Hops - self care   And as for tidying house - when I suffered very badly from depression and found even getting out of bed difficult, a therapist suggested I try to do something for ten minutes.  Not think about the whole job or the rest of the day, just set the timer for ten minutes and do what can be done in that time.  Whether that works with or against ADD I don't know but I thought I would mention just in case (obviously feel free to ignore ).

And I'm sorry to say I suspect M feels more comfortable when you are feeling vulnerable and/or not in control of the way that you feel.  I think you are right to focus on you, not him or what he is thinking/feeling just now.  Thanksgiving - yes.  Cleaner recommendation - yes.  But other than that - duvet - Pooch - TV remote.  I think that's what the doctor would order just now xx

[lighter]

Yes yes yes, what Amber said, Hops.

Remember not to make bargains with yourself about taking, and feeling entitled to downtime.  Get every drop of self care from it.  Guilt sucketh the care and joy you might otherwise receive, more fully.... with greater benefit....

You know what I'm trying to say; )

Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

Guilt indeed sucketh all positivity out of life. Yet, I am aware of the reflex (especially for women) that when we end a relationship because it's not JUST not working for us - but is actually harming us - there's an outpouring of apologies, peace offerings of the "friend zone", and even casting ourselves into a negative light as "less than" and "not up to the task"... all to excuse and not wound the male ego. And that might be some programmed maternal instinct that gets all twisted up into something unrecognizable in romantic relationships.

Maybe it helps to take the male/female roles and "shoulds" out of the picture when thinking about things. If a girlfriend had treated you that way -- would you still feel obligated to offer them "something" as a "consolation prize"?

Sorry, if you're just done thinking about this for now, Hops. My fascination with the study of relationships might be counterproductive for you just now. (Those thoughts/observations keep evolving, so they'll be here if you want to return to it. I too, can beat dead horses.) I just had one of those intuitive flashes that you just don't have the energy right now to "think"; it's still too personal and triggering; and Tupp is right - you just need whatever works for you as comfort and self-care.

Make yourself a yummy, nutritious soup or stew today Hops. Weather is turning chillier and the sky is gloomy. Time for silly comedy movies, or maybe some epic adventure flick. Maybe Indiana Jones type? Or maybe watch something that was your favorite tv series way back when?? Roy Rogers for instance... just let yourself rest and your emotions rebalance... tomorrow is another day.

[Hopalong]

Amber, how could you. Roy Rogers instead of Hopalong Cassidy?
Now I'm really upset. LOL.

Seriously, please don't do the I'm thinking something but not going to tell you thing. Every single time you make observations about mine or share things you've learned about your relationships I benefit from it, I truly do. Don't hold back!

I thought what you wrote about what women often do at the end of or during the decline of relationships was powerful. Read-again-and-ponder, powerful. Thank you. Something I wondered about. When you previously wrote that you might feel inclined to confrontation in a similar situation, did you mean verbally confront someone with exactly what you think they are doing, or with what you are feeling?

And Tupp, spot on again with this. Of course I can't prove it, and very likely it's entirely unconscious rather than Machiavellian on his part:

I suspect M feels more comfortable when you are feeling vulnerable and/or not in control

. I think it's be pretty natural for someone who only feels safe when he is in control, to start interacting more happily when the other is not.

Lighter, I'm going to need to concentrate to keep up the internal power and distance but I'm willing to try. It's difficult. Would be so nice if I could just safely pour out all the stuff. But I'll be calm and I hope in control of myself by Thurs.

Meanwhile, alla youse--thanks for the self-care reminders. Even tidying up can be part of that, because it does make me feel much much better. Not to mention it lifts self esteem because the old shame-tape can't get quite as loud. The normal thing I feel when I let it all get out of hand is global self-shaming. I know, I know!

Huge hugs,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Nope; not holding anything back Hops. But I do appreciate you might just need some time not pondering this topic; doing something else that might be a lot more fun. Or comforting. Or confidence-boosting. Or whatever!

Lemmee go see what I said about confrontation... ah, there it is.

My irish/scot/viking gets up in a BIG way these days, when I've already made myself as clear as clear can be... and then someone decides to tromp heavily right through what was meant to be taken as a boundary. The "look" comes over my face - my next words aren't going to be nice or diplomatic; typically this is the last warning for someone to back off... and if they persist, I will continue escalating anger and "command voice" until they back off, leave or I make them. ESPECIALLY when I've already expressed feeling vulnerable & triggered by something. I can back down again if the "look" elicits a quick - "my bad" or similar acknowledgement of their own behavior. But once I've gone to expressing myself, it's harder to shut down.

Oddly enough, it's not the Alpha-male types who push me to that place. It's usually the ones proclaiming their acceptance of feminism - as if that's their free ticket to just crash right in where they were told they didn't belong and didn't have a right to be. Maturity doesn't always coincide with age, I find.

[Hopalong]

Whooo! You ARE an Amazon, Amber. (But I knew that.)
Many kudos for your clarity and confidence, which I will shortly be trying to channel.

Thanks. I understand what you're describing.

Meanwhile, one of my pleasant self-care distractions is trying to figure out how to design this to fit on a nice purple cushion:

...when we end a relationship because it's not JUST not working for us - but is actually harming us - there's an outpouring of apologies, peace offerings of the "friend zone", and even casting ourselves into a negative light as "less than" and "not up to the task"... all to excuse and not wound the male ego. And that might be some programmed maternal instinct that gets all twisted up into something unrecognizable in romantic relationships.

I'm really pretty dazzled by this observation of yours; happily chewing on it.

I feel much better today. Still phlegmatic but don't care. Been watching "Alex Rider" on Amazon Prime which is a sort of James-Bondish series featuring an intelligent, precocious teenager, not a caricature. I'm finding the acting, writing and his character much more interesting than the old school Bond stuff and it's very diverting. The other teen characters as well.

Must hie me into a life that includes some teenagers. They're quite wonderful.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Well, young people and sharing with them, hearing their struggles IS quite educational. That was the secret to teaching - students always taught me as much as I claimed to teach them. Thing is the age group of "kids" I'm around the most now are late 30s, early 40s... with a few 50s thrown in. LOLOLOLOL. But it's been really creative and productive and positive for us to share back & forth on "life stuff".

That bit of paragraph you quoted, is the distillation of YEARS of conversation with Hol about just that very thing. Over & over & over. Maybe I ought to see if I still have any calligraphy chops... and frame it for her. A pillow makes sense too. Only Hol and I would be tempted to beat ourselves in the head with the pillow everytime we caught ourselves "doing it again". Or maybe throw it at each other. LOLOL. At which point, we'd both break down in a bad case of the giggles.

Not saying I didn't have my own run-ins with it; I did - but for the most part when I ended a relationship or it was ended FOR me, my trajectory was a solo run into a new iteration of my life. Flee, in other words. I see that struggle to maintain some kind of connection as a "fight" response. (Explaining that point of view, is complicated; has to do with power struggles.)

[Hopalong]

I see that struggle to maintain some kind of connection as a "fight" response. (Explaining that point of view, is complicated; has to do with power struggles.

And when you're in the mode and mood, I would love to hear the explanation. Something went "ping" when I read it but I don't know why.

Thanks for sharing your thinking, Amber. It's really valuable.

hugs
Hops