Meandering

[Hopalong]

What would be three to six real-life changes you'd like to make, G?

Of those, which seems somewhat possible? Even with some help?

Could you start with that?

Hugs
Hops

[Meh]

Not sure yet Hops. Going to read through the end. Maybe come up with some changes or at least think about it.

[Meh]

Pg 156-157.... Bring up the idea about mother's having envy for their daughters and projecting self-loathing. I'm wondering if either my N mother didn't do these things or if she did but I didn't realize. Considering my mother was more lacking in regard as opposed to being over involved. Part of the breaking the Orbit. It's still very difficult to pinpoint this even if I settle my mind on it. My mother fills many of the check boxes for NPD so I don't even doubt that anymore. I do sometimes wonder if I'm either making a bigger deal out of it than I should or if I'm minimizing it. There is something there obviously or else I wouldn't be here. I also feel a little embarassed to point so much towards my mother. It really seems that as adults it's a childish thing to do. But I'm just going through this book. My mother didn't really do "specific comments, criticisms, and judgements" at least I didn't hear verbal ones very often. I mean she has randomly come out of the blue and made comments "bitch, miserable". But she keeps them kinda locked down most of the time, they just are disparaging and they come out at random. 

Pg 160 ...."self acitivation and assertion".. I'm probably lacking here. Maybe it's for different reasons though maying it's not resulting from N-FOO emotional baggage.

"The ability to soothe painful feelings... comfort self, not wallow in misery, and FIND SOLUTIONS".    Again not sure if I'm really messing up on this one.

I feel defeated and uninspired. I feel like life extracts a lot, effort or hardwork with not enough reward. Work at something and get by.

Pg 164 "The internal mother"... this part is really not resonating with me, seems forced, mumbo jumbo, fake. Difficult. Immature, silly. The instructions are to write a list of so called "positive" attributes. I'm pretty sure I've done this before and look how effective it was. It's a weak exercise. Basically affirmations.

https://psychcentral.com/blog/why-positive-affirmations-dont-work/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/embodied-wellness/201704/affirm-or-not-affirm

I googled why affirmations don't work. I guess I'm not the only person who doesn't like them. It just seems like a very weak tool against a deep and convoluted issue. It's horrible because telling someone to do affirmations is no different than saying "Just be more positive". It's almost a platitude.

I will find chocolate in my cabinet. Will I find chocolate in my cabinet. There is chocolate in my cabinet.

The only things in there is what I have put in there.

Well I agree with reviewers that say the book is more about validation not really useful as a healing tool.

The struggle is real.

There is a social group in the city near me children of Ns. There are about 500 members. It's not as if there is a lack of seekers.

After all of this I don't know if I'm suffering an impact and FOO N IS affecting every aspect of my adult life.

[Meh]

Some therapists seems to be saying we are inhibiting our personal growth by going no contact. 

Why can't people continue to grow on their own apart from their crazy family that caused them so much confusion and anguish in the first place.

For F sake, I am kinda tired of the topic in general. Tired of hearing the N word over and over. Therapy Jargon etc. I just want to do something for myself, whatever I need i want to find it and do it and MOVE ON.

I'm afraid of spending too much time on the topic of FOO related stuff I'm also afraid of getting any older before I deal with it. If there is actually something still impacting me. I honestly don't know what to do.

I'm kind of disgusted by the AMOUNT OF TIME I have thought about this stuff. Feel like it's a waste. It's not fun, seems crazy on all levels. I and up just feeling more confused and feel like there is an ever increasing about of things that are wrong with me. Why is this a topic that only gets more and more complicated. I don't even feel like I have to understand every nuance of it. I'm NOT a researcher.

THE MORE I THINK ABOUT IT/LEARN ABOUT IT THE MORE I FEEL LIKE IT DEFINES ME. I don't want to be defined by my FOO.

Easier to describe a problem than to FIX a problem. Almost anybody can describe an issue, it's harder to explain it, it's hardest to actually fix it.

[lighter]

Boat:


Like Doc G says in his book.... we look for a Therapist who can attune to us.  Some are good, and some aren't... for us.   Some are just harmful individuals, and shouldn't be in practice at all, IME.

I guess I'm saying that you might find a Therapist who clicks with you.  I like my new psychotherapist with a Buddhist leaning.  She explained..... I can't think my way through my issues, which is what I was doing.  I recognize it in your posts... you're trying to wrap your mind around your questions, find answers, and make sense. 

My T would say this is the Top Down approach... using your brain to think your way out.  You're smart so you identify the questions, and possible answers, but then you're back IN that time, and place, experiencing it like you're there.  The brain can't tell the difference between BEING somewhere, and thinking about it.  When we dream, we're THERE.  When we think about something, we're there.  The brain reacts, and the amygdala shuts down access to our higher thinking... the limbic system kicks in.  That's our default, and I had to find a way around that.

My T  says these things have to be approached "bottom up"... we can't think our way out of it.
 We've tried and tried.  If we engage the parasympathetic nervous system, and keep the fight/flight response from kicking in, through breathing exercises, allow our brain to finish the work it wants to do.  I've been really happy with the results so far...  been seeing her about a month.

If it helps to hear my T walk me through what I've read about, and failed at, IME.  Our brain is very efficient at filing information where it needs to go.  Sometimes, when we're ready, we provide the opportunity, and the brain does what it needs to do.   It happens in a moment, and it's done for good.   The emotional charge is gone, and we're free to think about it without being triggered, which is our default setting very often.

It takes a little while to build new default settings... 30 - 60 days.  We aren't going to get there by repeating what we've always done, IME. 

We cultivate today, what we want for tomorrow.  I want less anxiety, and more feeling calm, and at home in my body.  I cultivate brain pathways that bring me more calm, and I'll do it till the new pathways are as strong as the old pathways.  I gotta tell ya, sometimes doing this brings anxiety, bc my comfort zone is now feeling anxious.... PAT... pleasure affect tolerance.... learning to feel OK with feeling OK.  Sometimes we aren't aware how comfortable the stress, and anxiety IS in our lives, IME. EMDR is helping, and I can't explain it, but I'm all for feeling better, Boat. 
 
I resonated with your posts.  All the research, reading, teasing out facts, and solutions, then finding they aren't helping the way we hoped.  The frustration.... judging ourselves,  reading more books... I spent a lot of time researching Trauma, and the latest treatments, why they worked, and I just kept missing the connection for myself.  Patients found ways to reframe their traumatic events, they found ways to feel empowered, but that wasn't working for me.  Why was it worling for them?  I think having someone walk us through, who knows how to overcome resistence, and blocks, has been revelation for me, and there have been many Ts that couldn't do that. 

You're smart,  you're ready to feel better, and resolve things for yourself.  I hope you find a way to be super kind, and nurture yourself through this.  No judgements at all.  Just notice what's there, for yourself, and let it inform you.  Let it roll through, and show you what's beneath it.   

I like the Kardia app, bc it helps me stay focused on my breathing.  It's not easy for me.  That blue dot keeps me focused, and I like the sound, and chimes. 

Your mom is broken, and she can't do better.  If she could, she would.  She can't.  You deserved better, Boat.  You can give yourself the care you deserve. 

Lighter

[Hopalong]

G,
You've put a lot of thought and also more free expression in your recent posts. I think a wonderful aid to your therapy, if you decide to go for it, would be to print out all you can and provide it to your new T (ideally after you book the appointment and before your first visit...so they can get some understanding of things you wrestle with and also energy and personality).

Just an idea.
Bravo, you.

Hugs
Hops

[Meh]

Heyo Lighter, the therapist you found sounds great. Now I have to read about PAT haha. (smile)  the Top does have it's limits, it's only one tool I guess.

Thanks Hops.

A therapist might be helpful maybe at some point I will.

[Meh]

Pretty much at the end of the book except a few sections skipped over. For all the complaining maybe it's really just frustration. I think the book reminded me that I am not truly individuated. The book WAS worth reading if just for this fact.

Also when I read sometimes it does activate my imagination in some way. Maybe it's silly new age imagination nonsense, what role does my imagination play, either self deception or some important message. I think yesterday I did get an important message/reminder from myself I guess.

[Meh]

I can write a lot, think a lot but if I even consider going to a therapist (I looked up a list in my area today) I kind of draw a blank of what I would even say to them. The thought of going to a therapist is also a little embarrassing. I sort of feel like I am living with myself but I don't have one specific issue that is causing me unbearable stress or pain that I would talk to a therapist about. It would be a very long session if the therapist asked me why I was there and I said "I don't know".

I know it sounds absurd. I guess I could talk about my mother. I think I am coming to terms with her I hope, slowly. Oddly she hasn't contacted me for a while probably because she has family visiting her. Or maybe the universe is conspiring in my favor for the moment.

I will be open minded to it if I find a therapist here that I want to see I guess.

So I have a hard time knowing what I can fully say this (whatever issue) is 100 from FOO problems. I don't know how much of me is just my personality or something else. Am I just like naturally more dull with age. Like do I just have a loner tired personality or something. LOL is tired a personality type- I don't think so.

[Hopalong]

I can write a lot, think a lot but if I even consider going to a therapist (I looked up a list in my area today) I kind of draw a blank of what I would even say to them. The thought of going to a therapist is also a little embarrassing. I sort of feel like I am living with myself but I don't have one specific issue that is causing me unbearable stress or pain that I would talk to a therapist about. It would be a very long session if the therapist asked me why I was there and I said "I don't know".

I don't think this is weird at all, G, and I KNOW that good Ts are not thrown by the awkwardness of early sessions. For many intelligent, cerebral people who tend to live in their heads and find it hard to express emotion verbally, it's a very common way of thinking about therapy.

Truthfully, that's exactly why I think printed-out selections of your posts would help things start. If a T reads these (even during your session), they will find it a lot easier to ask a couple "starter" questions. They are there to help you. So helping navigate the "stuckness" of not knowing how to begin is part of a good T's response.

You may be critical of your own personality but good Ts know to respond to an individual's personality without judgment, just openness and curiosity. I don't know what you'd find near you, but I've been very helped by a newish wrinkle on talk therapy called AEDP. Here are some videos:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=AEDP

And the book is "It's Not Always Depression."
https://smile.amazon.com/Its-Not-Always-Depression-Authentic-ebook/dp/B0725F8MQY/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=it%27s+not+always+depression&qid=1563887247&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Hope it helps...
hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

This is just an off the wall suggestion:

You could simply show up at the first appointment and say that you feel there is something wrong that you'd like to figure out and find solutions for, but you're not entirely sure WHAT'S bothering you. Part of the journey with a good T, is actually finding out what the problem (for you) is. It might not be the things your brain is telling you is the problem; that's just all it can see right now.

That's OK; when we look at landscapes, or a whole time frame of personal history, our attention focuses on one or two things every time we look at it. We can't see the whole thing in detail at one time. Not with senses and brain; sometimes one can FEEL the whole picture or story though.

[Hopalong]

Well put, and much less convoluted than my suggestions.

Bravo, Amber.

xxxooo
Hops

[Twoapenny]

G, it was really interesting to read what you're thinking as you read this book.  It was the first one I ever read about Narcissism (and is what ultimately brought me to this board, in a roundabout sort of way).  I'd read a book about toxic parenting before that, and had been having counselling for a while before that.  Years ago, a friend (who also has a mad family and has been in therapy many times in her life) was talking to me about counselling and self help and she said the problem with it is, you get to a point where you understand your family are mad/unhealthy/dysfunctional -  but then what?  They're still your family.  You still have all your childhood experiences, all the messages you picked up on (directly or indirectly), all the memories (or maybe not if you have forgotten a lot of stuff or blocked it out) and you're still the same person, but now you're aware it's all your mum's fault or it's all because your dad was a drunk or because your nan had an affair and was shamed by the village or whatever else happened.  But it doesn't change who you are or what your life is.  And I thought she made a really good point.  It's like you understand and know a lot, but you still can't do much about it because you can't fix the other people, so you're still stuck with that.  It's a bit like knowing what you need to do to fix a car but not being able to get the part.

I've read a lot of self help books over the years and many have given me useful information but none have had any sort of blueprint or formula that I've been able to follow to change my life.  I try to avoid toxic or difficult people now, but I still find it very hard to form close relationships and I still find childhood 'stuff' comes up again and again, despite many years of working through it and trying to deal with it.  I kind of think now all we can do is what we can do today.  I can try to eat well, try to rest, read a bit of a book, sort my boy out - but other than that I don't feel like I can do much else.  I don't find affirmations helpful - I do try to think constructively rather than ruminate and focus on negatives all the time but I don't think that's the same thing as affirmations.  I think maybe we need to just pick out anything that helps a bit and leave the rest of it behind.  Questioning it is always good, in my opinion xx

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi Garbanzo,

My patients would tell you  “If you have insight into your past (e.g. narcissistic family, trauma, loss etc) and you are still alone, you are not much better off.  Yes, you know who to avoid and how to “deal with the issues,” but you have nothing different/positive to replace this terrible and all-consuming history.”  In this sense, I view insight as a positive side effect of effective therapy (therapy in which the patient/therapist relationship creates a new, positive, and confirming history.)  In my 40 plus years of doing this work, I learned that insight, by itself, was not adequate, and brain techniques/strategies/skills, while potentially helpful were not, by themselves, powerful enough to affect the life changes my patients sought.  I don’t know if you read my patient Sara Field’s book, The Mathematician and the Teddy Bear (see the link below), but her “epic journey” through therapy provides a wonderful example of what I am talking about.

https://smile.amazon.com/Mathematician-Teddy-Bear-struggle-someone/dp/1514215772/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=The+Mathematician+and+the+Teddy+Bear&qid=1563908647&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Richard

[Meh]

Thank you for the ideas Lighter, Hops, Skep, Two, Dr. Grossman.