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I just found out - should I tell his daughter?

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seeker:
Greetings Ella,

I am relatively new to the board and don't chime in very often, but here goes...It's a testament to your sensitivity that you are concerned with this young lady's relationship to her father and her emotional health.  It might also be a sign that you may be taking on too much responsibility for their relationship.  Don't get me wrong, I still struggle with the To tell or not to tell?  question.  And you want to prevent harm if you can.  And there's no right or wrong answer, just a matter of judgment.  

I asked my therapist a similar but slightly different question: "How do I help?"  People I care about are living with a raging N.  Her answer was: "If they ask you and it's a request that you feel is appropriate for you."

It might feel like withholding vital information, but it's a bit like parenting when you have to decide when you tell your kids what's what and if you let them discover it on their own.  I'm not going to tell them I inhaled during college, but if they ask me, I'll try to have an appropriate answer ready.  OK, a lame example...

Providing information may have consequences...is the young lady in question mature enough to handle it?  How would the N respond if he knew you told her?  Also, telling the N that he is an N is another touchy subject.  I recommend Stop Walking on Eggshells for how to approach someone with an "egosonic" disorder.  That is, everyone else knows and part of the disorder is to deny, deny, deny.  A catch-22.  (My dad doesn't take the medicine for the problem he doesn't have...ugh!) For that matter, I recommend this book for how to approach others coping with it.  There may be other ways to communicate your concern without labelling the N.  Echo had great suggestions.

Another catch-22 (wow, i'm really droning on here!) is that many people esp. Ns won't get help until they hit bottom.  Rescuing vs. tough love is really a rotten decision to have to think over.  

Just some suggestions.  Hope they help and good luck!  S.

PS to Echo: I missed the radio show.  I was gratified to read your distinction between self-absorption and exploitative N.  I can be pretty "absent" and daydreamy and was starting to wonder if I was N even though my therapist assured me I wasn't.  It is my way of coping with overwhelming demands.  Funny how we take all this stuff on ourselves! :wink:

Anonymous:
Boston.  Dr. Grossman in person.  Resource rich you are!  

And speaking of resources, thanks for the link alert.  

You wrote:
--- Quote ---I am encouraged that you have been able to discuss the subject with your husband. I too feel stronger knowing what I'm dealing with, or that at least it has a name.
--- End quote ---


I have found that not only am I actually able to speak with J (husband with N traits) but that had I just ditched the relationship with him I'd have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.  Meaning (so far) I get something out of staying.  "What am I getting out of this?" may be the only focus of a narcissistic type & concomitantly it seems not enough of a focus for the Echo type.  

In addition to spending time with someone who has an excellent sense of humor & appreciation of the nuances of things (J.), I got a big surprise through a better understanding this Narcissist/Echo paradigm & moreover by doing so within the context of staying in the relationship.  Initially, I felt that if I understood him more, focused on him yet again that I would loose my frail grip on what little veil of skin that was left on my bones.  The real irony I didn’t expect was that I would then also change my perspective of the relative balance of power in the relationship.  As echo types, the very thing that N's suggest is our weakness is a source of strength.  Anyway, more about that later if anyone is interested...

I am not suggesting to go father into a relationship in order to learn & I have learned that I am finally in a relationship that is good enough that I can afford to stay & work my way out via the way I got in: Instead of just fleeing as I have in past from worse relationships where I looked at it all in hindsight - a lot of arses all in a row. Now that is a visual.   :shock:

Humor is great.  Second perhaps only to music in its universal, bridge building, soul tickling powers.  No wonder his parents are glad you are around.  

Speaking the parents :
"he is a totally different person" Whoa! Really? What credit are they giving him for the changes he may or not have made?  Oh the pressure on you!


--- Quote ---not to mention alarming!
--- End quote ---
 Too late, you just did!  :D
"for which we are all grateful." In what way?  In a way that addresses your needs?  It sounds like it can be true of course in many respects & is it balanced?

Early in our relationship J used what I now refer to as Pedestal Pandering.  He liked me & so "knew me" in a sense yet he did so without asking many questions about most of my life or my interests etc.  He saw strengths ONLY & could not see weaknesses.  Moreover, he complemented me, noticed ONLY those strengths that were relevant to serving him.  What I didn't get until I lived through it (and almost didn't live through it as it was an exhausting depleting lesson) is that I was not allowed weaknesses or limits in the context of this relationship & he (and I to some extent) saw my healthy needs as weaknesses.  


--- Quote ---What I still don't know is whether this is what I want/need in my life. (But he took the No on the apartment pretty well.)
--- End quote ---


Is that a bit of relief I hear?  As if you have a reprieve granted by his tolerance?

I too am struggling with identifying what I want/need.  I know I want a job I like so I am going to go focus on that now. I need a life, more options, outside of this relationship.  Can't compare apples & oranges when I spend all my time under a single tree....... :shock:  :D  :!:

Acappella:
Hi Seeker, you wrote
--- Quote ---Ns won't get help until they hit bottom. Rescuing vs. tough love is really a rotten decision to have to think over.
--- End quote ---


Your are right on target as far as the radio guests were concerned (except for Valknin who is clearly in love with the problem not the solutions, what would he be after all without the problem?  Sad.).  

The radio show is still free on line this week. There is poetry and mythology and excellent suggestions.  

Regarding your point, Seeker, Dr. Jeffery Young said that N's seek treatment only when "deflated" in some way.  Divorce, job loss,
--- Quote ---an ultimatum
--- End quote ---
that threatens their N supply.  That is the tough part I suppose.  There is a lot of variability in what is "rock-bottom" and how NS is defined.  

The "love" part, as I understood it, was what Dr. Jeffery Young spoke about as N's getting in touch with their vulnerabilities.  

Last year, after doing lots of things that didn't work, I began employing  some of the techniques noted on the radio program.  I was not doing so very consciously though.   Getting confirmation about possible solutions and hearing it organized and articulated on the radio show (and here)is very helpful as was rediscovering the problem in an organized way, it had a name etc.

When my husband lost his job last year I employed a mix of focusing on his vulnerabilities & setting limits (like mentioned in a very general way in the radio show).  (By the way, it took a male therapist’s "permission", a father figure sort of experience, for J. to hear and begin to consider vulnerabilities were an ok thing to acknowledge having).  

Ella wrote
--- Quote ---at his lowest point ever as far as self esteem goes, as he's been looking for work for over a year
--- End quote ---


Work is such an ego hub!  (Perhaps that is why I am still searching for a career/job? Hummm. :idea: ) J. (husband with N traits) lost his job last year & weird but true it was very good for both of us.  Hard in many ways too of course & yet so far, given the circumstances, the losses were worth the gains - in many ways the most direct route to them.

In retrospect what worked for me, for us was to:

1) Acknowledge & even morning a way, the loss of his imagined self - the image that went with the job but that he could have turned his energy toward redeeming through a different job.  Work is all in J's family.
2) Support his search for even a shred of his true or truer self. Micromovements are key here. Patience, appreciating what may appear to be small clues and gains.
3) Not become a martyr (at least not more of one) and keep clear about my wants & needs. Say no to meanness and yes to vulnerability.

(Not necessarily in that order 1-3 & in fact necessarily often in the reverse order 3-1 especially in my head.)

It is like Ella noted:  
--- Quote ---a "legitimate" source of NS has had an effect on him.
--- End quote ---


What I have found most tricky is (all of the above actually  :shock: but )#2 especially. J.'s not having had a true sense of self makes it hard to give legitimate support to "him" as he doesn't & so I don't know who/what to support.  He has a lot of work to do on his inner self I on the other hand have work to do on my outter self, meaning I don't interact with the world.  This forum is a start..training wheels for the ride of my life.  Yeeesh.  Gotta get a job.  

P.S.  
Seeker wrote:
--- Quote ---Funny how we take all this stuff on ourselves!
--- End quote ---
Yeah, we are the first to ask if we are narcissistic and to apologize for our voices:  
--- Quote --- (wow, i'm really droning on here!)
--- End quote ---
  :D

As a somewhat shame drenched long poster myself I am trying not to feel bad about the length of my posts. After all there is a scroll bar.  I notice so many apologies here for the length of posts...sorry this is so long etc. etc. Well at least I, for one, don't desire you to apologize for droning.  :D  I enjoy reading as much as I can when I can.  If some one has a problem with posts they can and have said so.  I trust you all will do so regarding my posts too.  Anyway, I have to focus on choosing and pursuing a career and job soon so life will edit the lenth of my posts soon enough!

Ella:
Hi Seeker,
Thanks for responding. There's nothing lame about your example - when his daughter asks why or what or how, I might then be able to respond appropriately without being disloyal. What I want to do is support his effort to build a relationship with her, but not interfere. And she (bless her!) has expressed that she realizes she needs to be sensitive to my feelings for him so as not to put me in the middle.  I also don't want to label him since that's my diagnosis, not a professional's.  (And if I say N and she gets on Vaknin's site she might think there's no hope at all!) Thanks also for the book suggestions - I have a stack I'm ordering from Amazon and I will put Eggshells on the list because that is exactly what it has felt like. It's interesting that I used to be quite capable of holding my own in any argument or discussion, damn the torpedoes! - in my 20's someone once told me to "put a cover on my racket", as in, way too direct with what you have to say.

So maybe this is some kind of karma, something that I've needed to teach me all about being more sensitive.   :? And maybe why I like it? As the pendulum swings.

Wait, I'm sure that I still can be that way, but for reasons I'm not too clear on I don't want to be that way. Oops, getting into new territory here - I like the feeling of having someone to admire and look up to and feel safe with.  :D  (following is stream of consciousness - I won't apologize!) There's a precise moment, in the first year, watching the movie Apollo 13 and he's (Tom Hanks?) stuck up there and looking out of the porthole at tiny earth and she's down there in Florida looking up at tiny moon and I felt like for the first time I knew what that bond was - "you mean everything to me". I felt so safe. I'm not saying he or I felt "you mean everything," but I realized for the first time that it could be that way between people, in a calm, accepting way and not a manufactured frenzy. When I said "I love you" what I was feeling was "you have some habits that I can't stand and you do things that make me crazy, but you are someone who is actively struggling TO BE, to understand and express what the difference is between what you are bombarded with in this world and what you value." So that's what I said: "I love you because this is a core feeling that I have.  I see that you are willing to struggle with the world, and I value that. And, I'm not  too happy about being in love with you because you do some things that I don't like."

I've been waiting a couple of years for that "safe" feeling to come back. Lately I haven't felt safe at all, there are too many unpredictable swings, the most innocent little eggs explode. But when I think about it, what happened - He started feeling like how could anyone feel safe because of outside eggs like the economy falling apart and Sept. 11? I lost four friends and colleagues, and most of my  business - I'm self employed as a financial writer, that market is dead. I was so tossed by the loss of these people I had a friend do a three part  illustration of "Bin Laden Bin Flushed" and had it printed on toilet paper. The following year my brother and my mother both passed away. These outside eggs are part of the reason why my "N" is so nutzo lately - yes, I'm still in love (am I making excuses or being rational?) - because the world has gone whacked and what he really wants is to take care of me and everyone else in the world. It's why I fell in love: If you have grandiose ideals, it's okay with me,  as long as they are noble! (So I'm an N too!  :shock: )

Echo, I'm going to do (yet) another reply (no apologies!) to some of the subleties you raised. Thank you for being here!

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