Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves

[Hopalong]

Wow, I think that last paragraph was HUGE, Tupp. Realizing that calm, which you aspire to, is actually uncomfortable.

That's such an opportunity. To see what eternal adrenaline has been about. Not just that it happens, but what is it substituting for?

I don't know a lot about how trauma works. But I wonder if feeling perennial anger, frustration and negativity keep the stillness away. Because in stillness, the trauma might resurface. I don't know if that's accurate, I'm just guessing. (And you have ACTUAL stress, big stress, it's not like you're manufacturing it. Waking up with it every day, though, says .... too much.)

It would be so wonderful to have a safe space with a skilled, kind T you trust, where you could release and talk through a lot of it, once a week. Maybe then you could wake up in peace, no matter what the day brings.

big hugs,
Hops

[lighter]

I understand... and I'm not sure why it IS what it is, but it just is discomfort with the quiet bits.

Whether it's dread of getting thrown back into chaos, which is worse if I DO manage to relax, finally, and believe things will be OK... or if it's that PAT thing the T spoke about.... Pleasure Affect Tolerance?

I guess you take notice, stay curious, and go back to basics.... breathing, yoga, beach, social contact. 

At some point the quiet won't feel so strange.  It becomes familiar, right?

Keep breathing your way through it, and train your brain...... it's OK.  No reason to get anxious, or avoid, or find distractions.  It's OK. 

::nodding::.

What becomes habit, becomes pleasure.

20 - 60 days to form new patterns.  This too shall pass.

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

Wow, I think that last paragraph was HUGE, Tupp. Realizing that calm, which you aspire to, is actually uncomfortable.

That's such an opportunity. To see what eternal adrenaline has been about. Not just that it happens, but what is it substituting for?

I don't know a lot about how trauma works. But I wonder if feeling perennial anger, frustration and negativity keep the stillness away. Because in stillness, the trauma might resurface. I don't know if that's accurate, I'm just guessing. (And you have ACTUAL stress, big stress, it's not like you're manufacturing it. Waking up with it every day, though, says .... too much.)

It would be so wonderful to have a safe space with a skilled, kind T you trust, where you could release and talk through a lot of it, once a week. Maybe then you could wake up in peace, no matter what the day brings.

big hugs,
Hops

Yes I think that's it Hops, part of it with me (I think) is if I'm at a point now where I can't blame (or don't want to keep blaming) my situation on other people, for whatever reason, it then becomes down to me to do something useful or meaningful with my life.  And I think I find that quite scary - lack of confidence or something, I guess.  Am I good enough to do something useful?  The lack of people in my life is down to the problems I have with maintaining relationships - I just find it really hard work and if I'm honest I can't be bothered to make a lot of effort a lot of the time.  Co-dependence suited me, it meant I could busy myself with other people's stuff and avoid dealing with my own, then moan when they didn't need or want me anymore.  It's more of a risk to have a relationship with someone that's just based on them liking you enough to spend time with you, rather than doing it because you run round after them all the time.  So I think I'm just at a point where I've got rid of a lot of the old stuff but I haven't filled the spaces with new, good stuff yet.  And I want to do that slowly so that I don't just find myself back in the same situations again another couple of years down the road (which has happened before!).  And the space inbetween is difficult to manage.  But today was a good day!  So I think it will be alright xx

[Twoapenny]

I understand... and I'm not sure why it IS what it is, but it just is discomfort with the quiet bits.

Whether it's dread of getting thrown back into chaos, which is worse if I DO manage to relax, finally, and believe things will be OK... or if it's that PAT thing the T spoke about.... Pleasure Affect Tolerance?

I guess you take notice, stay curious, and go back to basics.... breathing, yoga, beach, social contact. 

At some point the quiet won't feel so strange.  It becomes familiar, right?

Keep breathing your way through it, and train your brain...... it's OK.  No reason to get anxious, or avoid, or find distractions.  It's OK. 

::nodding::.

What becomes habit, becomes pleasure.

20 - 60 days to form new patterns.  This too shall pass.

Lighter

 
I think that's it, Lighter, keep walking new paths until they become familiar paths.  I'm going to keep focusing on my health and keeping life orderly and calm as much as possible and just keep trying to make good choices.  I've told sis I don't want to hear about mum again, whatever she may or may not be doing, and I think I'll keep contact with her now to Christmas and birthdays.  Same with friends from the past as well.  It's time to move on and just not keep dealing with this stuff all the time!  It's too tiring.  There are more enjoyable ways to feel tired Lol xx

[lighter]

I think healthier people make these types of healthier decisions
all
the
time.

I don't think they have the same fear,  guilt and shame pressuring them to continue relationships, and situations that are unhealthy. Maybe they do. I just know that we have control over decisions we make daily, and switching to the best possible choice will have implications we can't imagine, but will be proud of. 

One day at a time.  One decision at a time.  It ads up.  Think about the bad things we've become accustomed to.

We can get used to feeling better, and having less strife in our lives, can't we?

I'm sure we can.

Its getting beyond the discomfort.   That familiar old discomfort that usually pushes us into decisions that won't get us more of what we want, but dispells discomfort in the moment. 

This moment has to be endured, and overcome to get beyond old patterns. 

We can do that.  I notice I'm calmer, generally, as I continue practicing breathing, and cultivating positive moments.  It's easier to get back on track. 

Lighter
 

[Twoapenny]

I think healthier people make these types of healthier decisions
all
the
time.

I don't think they have the same fear,  guilt and shame pressuring them to continue relationships, and situations that are unhealthy. Maybe they do. I just know that we have control over decisions we make daily, and switching to the best possible choice will have implications we can't imagine, but will be proud of. 

One day at a time.  One decision at a time.  It ads up.  Think about the bad things we've become accustomed to.

We can get used to feeling better, and having less strife in our lives, can't we?

I'm sure we can.

Its getting beyond the discomfort.   That familiar old discomfort that usually pushes us into decisions that won't get us more of what we want, but dispells discomfort in the moment. 

This moment has to be endured, and overcome to get beyond old patterns. 

We can do that.  I notice I'm calmer, generally, as I continue practicing breathing, and cultivating positive moments.  It's easier to get back on track. 

Lighter

Nodding, Lighter, all the way through, yes, I think some people just make decisions that are in their best interests as a matter of course.  They don't have the same baggage to deal with and aren't mired down by generations of unresolved angst.  I do feel I'm getting better at at least pausing before I decide what to do next instead of just reacting and responding.  That's starting to become apparent now.

The relaxing before bed didn't seem to work last night; I did my yoga and we'd had a nice day doing sport in the afternoon and chatting to people so nothing unpleasant to work through.  Woke up at 1am feeling like I wanted to punch someone and then had a very odd dream; the cat leapt into shark infested waters and I leapt in to get her out (very peculiar, our cat is so lazy she doesn't leap anywhere and why would there be sharks in the river?? lol, how odd).  And then somehow I was back on dry land trying to balance my diary to make an arrangement to meet a group of people and I had to keep re-arranging my appointments to try to fit it all in, and then ended up paying for everyone's coffee.  It was very strange and I woke feeling quite unsettled.  But I will stick with it!  Hopefully it's just stuff working its way out and eventually, surely, I will get to a point where I'm not overloaded with goodness knows what and I can wake up feeling like I've had a good sleep. 

[lighter]

I try to remember pushing on walls when BIG feelings to BE ACTIVE come up for me.  Instead of doing doing doing, I want to push push push, then see how I feel.  DO I feel calmer?  Do I feel things can be resolved without running around doing what I've always done, that gets me nothing I truly want?

I'm pretty sure toxins will keep coming up as we process the junk, Tupp.  I think you're right to take it in stride, and keep working at it.  Things will get better, then worse, then better, then worse... I guess.

::sigh::.

I keep breathing, and that's no so hard to remember.   I feel like I'm adding fat to pathways I want to strengthen and build.  Starving the pathways I want to get rid of.   Every little bit moves me along.  And it's OK, even when it's not OK.  My nervous system seems to be calmer, and more resilient.  That's great right?

It doesn't feel like I'm dead inside either, lol. It feels like I have more time to process before fight or flight runs me over.  That's what it feels like.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Tupp, you have SO much mature and rational insight into who you are, your own makeup, and how you work...that once again, you blew me away.

There is NO WAY that this much self-insight is not going to pay off for you, ultimately.

Just
no
way.

I have such faith in you, and so much respect for how honestly and deeply you think!

Hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Hops and Lighter, thank you   Lighter, for some reason I find that clapping my hands together seems to break a little pattern for me?  I don't know why but it seems to help stop things spinning.  Hops, I never feel like I have rational insight, lol, I always feel like I'm just muddling through   But it's nice to read that so thank you

I have noticed some things today (Lighter, I am being observant) and I have made some efforts to be clearer with other people (Hops, that's down to you ).

First day back to college.  Taking son later is a help.  We got everything he needed ready last night to avoid rushing this morning and I made his packed lunch as getting him to do that is stressful and I don't want stress in the mornings now, so that went okay.  The drive in is always a bit stressful, just because the roads are busy.  We got there and son had forgotten his drink, despite my reminding him twice and me saying "Have you got your drink?"  as we left the house and him saying "yes".  This is the kind of stuff that is problematic for me.  Because of his problems, I can't just say, "tough, you'll have to manage without".  There's only one thing he will drink and it has to be in a particular water bottle (with a straw) or he can't manage it.  He can't go to the food hall on his own to buy something else and they don't have the staff to take him so he'd have to go without.  If he gets dehydrated it increases the risk of a seizure.  So it's one of those things where I just had to go home and fetch it for him and take it back to college.

What I noticed was the physical reaction to the stress, and it was very quick.  My left shoulder popped.  Then pain started up my neck and across the side of my head.  My jaw started to feel very painful, as if someone had punched me.  My gum line (under my teeth) started to throb on that side of my face and then the headache started.  I started to feel sick, then anxious, then came the chest pains.  It all happened in a matter of seconds and within a few minutes I felt like I could just go home and go back to bed for the day.  I had stuff I needed to do but couldn't face the thought of all the people in town, so drove to the next town along which is smaller and quieter so I did what I needed to do there instead.

I think I need to keep trying to do the yoga to keep my neck and jaw relaxed and hope that helps.  I'm not sure if the acupuncturist can do something to try to stop that instant reaction from coming.  It was so fast and so sudden.  I did try deep breathing and to focus on other things but it didn't seem to do anything much (maybe it stopped it from getting worse, it's always hard to know with that sort of stuff).  But it did show me that my reaction to stress is a very physical one and it comes from external stress, rather than internal.

So that was the first thing.  I did my stuff I needed to do and then messaged a friend who lives nearby; this is one of the ones I've been upset about not hearing from much when I was going through my bad spell over the summer.  We have talked and cleared the air a bit and Hops, I think you are right about having to not have an expectation and accepting people as they are for who they are.  She is a good friend in other ways; I think part of the problem is my lack of boundaries and the fact that I often let her talk endlessly about various problems that other people she knows are going through.  I need to work on that and I did interrupt a couple of times today and changed the subject so that worked well.  I also realised that one of the reasons I don't like seeing people when I feel down is that I worry I will snap or be unkind as I feel very intolerant.  I think perhaps I ought to just be honest and say I'd like to meet up but I'm not feeling great so will apologise if I'm snappy or impatient.  That might be better; they can say they'd rather wait until I'm in a better mood then if they want to and I won't feel like I've got to try to pretend I'm in a better place than I really am.  So yes, that went well, I feel better for it and I feel more positive about being here than I have for quite a long time really.  I'm just going to keep working on myself; I think the thing for me to remember is to prioritise the people who are around when I'm in a bad place and not let other people monopolise my time or energy (boundaries again).  I think if I focus on that it will help and I'll cope better next time things fall apart a bit and I fall into a bit of a pit xx

[Hopalong]

perhaps I ought to just be honest and say I'd like to meet up but I'm not feeling great so will apologise if I'm snappy or impatient.

That sounds PERFECT, Tupp! Honest, vulnerable, human. Not even complicated.
I always appreciate it so much when someone's simply open about how they're doing. It helps me remember I am also always allowed to be real. I don't have to orchestrate someone else's response to me -- I can just be real.

It can be just as simple as your good example. You let the other person make their own choice, and just take responsibility for yours.

I really love your example because it invites the possibility of just being real for you both, acknowledges that both of you are human (you because of how you're feeling, and also her, because you're respecting it'll be her choice depending on how she is feeling herself). I get it. I feel so appreciated when someone trusts me with their simple truth instead of an act.

It's not magic, and doesn't change people necessarily. But it makes relationships so much simpler. If just being real is something that a particular person can't or doesn't respond to well, that's helpful information. But if, even in small ways, they do respond well (or with realness of their own, even briefly)...that's a good sign.

Bravo, you!

Hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

perhaps I ought to just be honest and say I'd like to meet up but I'm not feeling great so will apologise if I'm snappy or impatient.

That sounds PERFECT, Tupp! Honest, vulnerable, human. Not even complicated.
I always appreciate it so much when someone's simply open about how they're doing. It helps me remember I am also always allowed to be real. I don't have to orchestrate someone else's response to me -- I can just be real.

It can be just as simple as your good example. You let the other person make their own choice, and just take responsibility for yours.

I really love your example because it invites the possibility of just being real for you both, acknowledges that both of you are human (you because of how you're feeling, and also her, because you're respecting it'll be her choice depending on how she is feeling herself). I get it. I feel so appreciated when someone trusts me with their simple truth instead of an act.

It's not magic, and doesn't change people necessarily. But it makes relationships so much simpler. If just being real is something that a particular person can't or doesn't respond to well, that's helpful information. But if, even in small ways, they do respond well (or with realness of their own, even briefly)...that's a good sign.

Bravo, you!

Hugs
Hops

Thanks, Hops.  I think part of me still feels like I need permission to speak about myself?  It's quite weird, but when I was talking to the friend I saw earlier in the week, she was talking about another friend who'd been 'triggered' by something someone had said something about her ex and how it had taken her a week to get over it - and she understood that.  And it was a revelation to me, because the main reason I've not felt comfortable seeing her is because she tells me all about the abusive man dramas she's surrounded by and that triggers me - and takes me a week to get over it.  And I don't say anything, I just sit home on my own feeling lousy and ruminating on it all.  So I've got to start being clearer with people, even if I do keep repeating myself and I feel like a broken record.

I've realised as well that being around people really has potential to make me exhausted and I'm going to have to find a way to manage that.  College has been exhausting, even with the reduced timetable, and son is already struggling.  I think realistically we really need to be in a situation where he's mostly at home and we have just one or two people involved in helping him out, so that we can all be doing the same thing.  College is just to chaotic for either of us to manage.

The group yesterday was great and I'm helping one of the mums with her social services assessment.  I'm really enjoying going and I'm enjoying helping her out.  But the group was very busy, everyone was talking at the same time and there were two 'speakers' in doing different things and again, all talking at the same time.  Alongside that another mum was talking about all the problems she's having with her son and one of the dads has just had his son taken into care, so he wanted to talk as well.  So I'm wondering if what I need to do is perhaps look into doing voluntary work with an organisation, rather than through an informal group like that.  I love helping out parents who're in the same situations I've been in in the past.  The mum I've been helping is a single parent, her son has complex needs and she's just muddled through on her own, like me.  She was so appreciative of the help and I can remember going home from situations where someone helped me with a form or explained something to me and the feeling of relief was always so immense that I really want to do more of that, to help other people.  But I think perhaps it needs to be through a formal organisation so that it's a booked appointment and one person at a time, rather than half the county all at once, which was too much.  So that's where things are at the minute.  I think I need to find a way to balance out what I want to do without getting to overwhelmed or too over involved in too many other things at once.

[Hopalong]

I can see why, (((Tupp))).

I think for anyone with even a toe on the spectrum or who is naturally introverted or has something like ADD, an event like that could feel overstimulating and exhausting. Is there any chance you could explain that to the organizers very simply, and ask if a booth or curtained space might be set up -- or simply explain that you'd like a quiet corner where you can help just one person at a time?

It wouldn't be a complicated arrangement, or shouldn't have to be....and maybe it'd be nice to retain your connection with nice folks you've met instead of having to give up on the group?

Just a thought, may or may not make sense for you.

Big hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

I can see why, (((Tupp))).

I think for anyone with even a toe on the spectrum or who is naturally introverted or has something like ADD, an event like that could feel overstimulating and exhausting. Is there any chance you could explain that to the organizers very simply, and ask if a booth or curtained space might be set up -- or simply explain that you'd like a quiet corner where you can help just one person at a time?

It wouldn't be a complicated arrangement, or shouldn't have to be....and maybe it'd be nice to retain your connection with nice folks you've met instead of having to give up on the group?

Just a thought, may or may not make sense for you.

Big hugs
Hops

That's a good idea, Hops.  I think, as the lady who set the group up hasn't done this before, it's all still sort of unfolding as we go along.  Privacy is an issue as well; obviously people need to talk but some things need to be discussed in private and there isn't really a private space there.  I think there were just too many different things happening that day and it was a bit much.  I will talk to her about it; the idea is to provide informal support but I think even within that there needs to be some sort of system in place so that there aren't too many things going on at the same time.

What I have really noticed this week is how much external situations stress me out, and much more than would ordinarily be expected.  So I think I need to work about being really rigorous at setting boundaries, saying no and focusing on healthy habits.  I think I should go and see the GP again and discuss whether I ought to be assessed for autism myself and possibly PTSD.  There are definitely symptoms of both but I would guess that one might be the cause of everything I'm experiencing.  I don't feel that a diagnosis does much to help (it hasn't in my son's situation) but I wonder if it might mean I stop analysing what's going on with me quite so much if I know it definitely is or isn't something in particular.  I'll think about it some more.  Things generally don't feel too bad at the moment though, which is good.

[Hopalong]

That's a great idea, Tupp.
Knowledge is power. And sometimes having an actual explanation for something unique about your system or how you function is really helpful.

When I was diagnosed with ADD, huge weights of shame just poured off me. I hadn't realized how much self-criticism and pain had come from a simple neurological difference--why I struggled with some things other people didn't appear to. I was in deep frustration for years, trying to turn myself into something I wasn't, rather than learning how to adapt to and accomodate my own particular brain.

It's a very good brain and I'm lucky to have it. But it ain't quite like everybody else's. That's okay with me now, and I understand myself so much better and with much less shame.

Small idea: If that group meets in one big large space, a simple way to manage this would be to ask for one table and two chairs. Set the table up a good distance from a wall and set the chairs at a comfortable "privacy distance" behind it and off center, facing each other, not the table. Put a BIG NOTE on the table, folded to stand up:
Please wait until a chair is free--happy to help you next! [smiley face]

Big hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Echoing Hops here.  Maybe set up a waiting area some distance away from your private area, Tupp.

Hear hear to asking for what you want and need, Tupp.  Learning to casually say NO, sans feeling bad about it....some day soon.

::nodding::

Soon.