Health Updates

[lighter]

I agree with Amber,  Hops. I think there's a collective consciousness of fear...  around COVID, the economy, the upcoming election, racism,  violence, abusive relationships, in general.... SO much going on right now, and then you have chest pain,  on top of your body not being able to heal during deep sleep and your friend remaining in a pretty awful situation.

How does lack of sleep usually affect you,  Hops?

I find it's so important.  That's when the body repairs itself.

I'm not going to give advice on calming and comforting the mind and body with breathing, etc. I've said it all, many times, and it's here on the board.  Hops knows how to do that, bc she explained some of it to me many years ago.

I don't wonder what would have happened if you put your hand on your chest pain and paid very close attention to it while breathing...... it was too scary for that, IMO.

I hope it IS just anxiety, Hops, and not heart problems.   How does your T explain the mind-body connection- symptoms, and how does she want you to deal with it?

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Thank you so much, both of you....

Amber, I really appreciate the understanding. I think you were addressing the mix of physical fear and emotional fear (about things T and I are getting into). They might need different responses; I'm going to have to tease things out as best I can.

I did go into what mode I could...awake at 230am I started bread so I could take it to my neighbor friend who drove me. That made me feel good today. Even took a tiny walk with Pooch on the way. I also managed a decent sleep.

Lighter, you know it. All the breathing stuff (though I'm amazed I may have explained it once--you've actually practiced it) is on file, and I may find my way to it in some way or another. Maybe a primitive form of relaxation response practice. But for now, just doing stuff like I did last night:

--double strength chamomile
--heating pad on chest (still aches some from what happened, as does diaphragm from SOB)
--melatonin
--as needed, a crumb of zolpidem

I wrote PCP today about...IS THERE a med for sleep/anxiety that doesn't a) depress CNS/respiration or b) meddle with memory and otherwise contribute to dementia (known risk of virtually all sleeping Rx). Will make appt to see him in a week. Also wrote cardiologist so will be seeing him too at some point.

Later today something popped up I'd forgotten I could try that could be a godsend if it works for me, without the scary side effects:  CBD oil. I found something here that is helping but Light, if you have knowledge more granular than this, I'd be delighted to read it: https://www.help.org/best-cbd-oil/#4. I think I'd choose a full-spectrum organic one, US grown and processed. Far as I've gotten. It's recommended variously for both anxiety and insomnia, so if it actually worked, it would be a golden two-fer!

I'm so grateful for y'all. I can't even find adequate words.

love and thanks,
Hops

[lighter]

 Hops:
Tupp uses CBD oil.  I don't know anything about it except it brought my mother back to center during her battle with cancer.  It was a Godsend.

I hope it works for you.  Maybe Tupp has some pointers about what kind and how much.

 I didn't know about the dementia risks associated with sleeping meds.  I hope the CBD does the trick.

I do know allergy meds seem to be something Canadian medicine associates with cancer.  Have you heard anything about that connection?

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

Hops, how funny, I was going to get on here today to suggest trying cannabis for the anxiety and you have beat me to it.

I'm not an expert - caveat number 1 - but I have found it enormously helpful with my anxiety.  The very first time I took it I did feel a little foggy headed and sleepy (and did have a bit of a nap) but other than that I've had no side effects from taking it at all.  For me, it kind of feels like it soothes my central nervous system and just settles everything down.  For my general understanding I've read the info put out by Jeff Ditchfield who runs Bud Buddies (and I think he's based in Jamaica now) but as many states in the US sell cannabis legally now there is probably a wealth of info to be had.

Anyhoo - the downside with it is that the strength and dose required is established through trial and error.  It isn't like a regular prescription where the doctor will tell you to take three tablets, twice a day.  Everyone's system is different so the amount you need may be completely different to the amount I take.  It's expensive so having to try different strengths and brands until you work out what's right for you can be pricey but for me it is still worth doing so and, once I found the one I was happiest with I stuck to it and just order another bottle each month now (son takes it as well and so does the cat ).

It was suggested to me to start with a low strength and keep adjusting the number of drops taken until you get to a point where things are feeling calmer.  The stronger the strength, the fewer drops you'll need, but it's also more expensive to buy.  You put three drops under your tongue (this is assuming you buy the oil in a dropper bottle) and wait for a few minutes for that to settle through your system a bit (I always end up swallowing as well because I'm just one of those people that can't not).  The first time I used it I had the three drops and then nothing else that day, to get a good idea of the effect it would have.  From that I bought a bottle of the same strength that I'd tried the day before and started adjusting the dose so, take three drops, wait five mins, if there's still a little anxiety, take three more, wait another five mins and so on.  For some people a small, relatively weak dose does the trick, others need a lot more.  I'd suggest writing down your symptoms before you take any at all and then recording how much you take and when/if the symptoms start to reduce.  Then stay on that dose for a few days (maybe three?) to give it all a chance to settle in and then see if you need to up the dose or if that is enough.  You might even find you need to take less after a few days.  It was explained to me as imagining a dried up pond - you'd have to pour water into it just to fill the cracks in again before it started to fill up and your endocannabanoid system (that's the thing inside you that responds so well to the CBD) is similar; you need to top it up a bit before it starts to level out.  So once you've plugged the cracks you might find you need less just to keep things topped up.

There's also just personal taste as some oils are flavoured.  Personally I like the plant taste and dislike artificial flavours so I stick with unflavoured varieties.  I currently use one by CBDistillery at 1,000mg strength.  I take it through the day - first thing in the morning, another dose a few minutes after than and then I just top up as needed.  Best kept in the fridge.  I've also used the Charlotte's Web brand and they were very good, although more expensive and harder to get hold of here.  From what I've read and been told full spectrum is the best type to take - kind of like making sure your diet has the full range of nutrients in it.

If you can find a local stockist who knows their stuff they can be very helpful and, once you can get out and about again, they're nice shops to pop into.  Lots of products like teas, bath products, skin balms and so on.  The other thing that might be good for you are CBD lollies - they're just like the lollipops you'd have had as a child but with a little CBD in them.  They're great to have on you if carrying your oil in your bag isn't easy (not that you'd be going anywhere at the moment to need to take it) but there is something about that sucking action that's soothing (kind of like a child with a pacifier).  I like them and they're usually quite cheap (although again, plant flavoured so that might put you off).  A lot of places will send you a free sample of oil so you can get an idea re taste and strength without having to buy a whole bottle to start off with so it would be good to see if you can find a place fairly local to you that sells online and can send you a small amount to try.  It is also available as a paste or in suppository form but I was advised the oil is the easiest to start with to work out how much to take and how often and then you can try something else if it's more convenient.  I've just found the oil easy to use as I'm home most of the day anyway so I've stuck with that.

The book I've found most useful for just general understanding is Jeff Ditchfield's Medical Guide to Cannabis but as I say, you guys are way ahead of the UK with the cannabis stuff so there's probably a whole load available.  In the UK Jeff Ditchfield is very well known so his name tends to pop up whenever anyone talks about this.  I haven't read any wider than him; I was so blown away by how much it helped me that I just stuck with it.  It's not cured everything completely (as you know from my meltdowns on here) but I have lost that endless ragged feeling that I had and I rarely get chest pains now (I was similar to you with being rushed into hospital and tests showed my heart was fine, it was all anxiety related.  I hardly get pains now - do sometimes get palpitations which I think is menopause related).  I will also say that yoga does help me and you can do that from home - Yoga with Adrienne stuff is great and she has a really cute dog as well   Lots of videos on YouTube.

Hope that helps, Hopsie!  I would say it's definitely worth trying and that article you posted a link to looked promising, although I would suggest trying to find someone reasonably local to you at least to start off with.  I just feel more comfortable with someone who has a shop nearby than I do with a faceless internet company but that's just me.  The only other thing I would suggest is that when you try it initially to try it at night time, in case it does make you feel a little groggy and sleepy at first so that you can just go to bed straight away.  Let us know how you get on! xx

PS I also find the Epsom salts baths helpful if you're not already doing that and I find in my little bathroom a hot bath with Epsom salts and some lavender oil either in the bath water or in a little oil burner makes a really nice kind of lavender scented steam room - that can be helpful in the evenings for me.

PPS - Just noticed when I scanned that article again that it says that Beam Oils have a selection tool to help you pick the right product for you - I've no idea what their tool might be but that might be worth finding out more about.

[sKePTiKal]

Hops - I agree CBD oil might be something to try. But I'm going to take the experimentation process even stricter than Tupp described. The reason is that in the past - I've experienced INCREASED anxiety/panic symptoms from this substance. But I've also been learning about micro-dosing (and it's not just with CBD). Think homeopathic theory...
and perhaps placebo effect. Something else to research and learn about. 

But use the lightest strength, lowest dose you can and wait 15 minutes for it to circulate in your bloodstream and diffuse in your brain first. This lets you decide if you're noticing ANYTHING at all before adding more and perhaps getting to the "too much" level too fast; that would be counterproductive. At least in some people.

I've recommended this for things I've had B try as well. It gives you more control over what you're feeling in your body & mind... and sometimes it just takes awhile to notice something different if it's subtle. But adding more just because there isn't a fast change... is like I said, what can get you past your comfort zone.

[Hopalong]

THANK YOU, everybody!
You all are just an amazing help.

(Don't know about allergy meds and cancer, Lighter. I don't take them but I wouldn't be surprised. I'm a total cafeteritarian about medicine, love standard Western for most serious things, but would be happy to try alternatives. Caveats: I wish they were better regulated, because so many are tainted and massively off-dose once tested. However, there are ways to find standardized extracts and single-ingredient formulas. I look for Certified Organic, and GMS (good manufacturing practice) seals. Not concerned about non-GMO so far.)

What I've come up with I'm going to try for a week:
Ashwagandha from Organic India. The recommended dosage is too high (two capsules = 800 mg) and the studies I found used 200 mg. I took one capsule this morning, no bad effects...but will probably resume with a half-cap until I'm sure. I'll do it morning and night for a while.

CBD oil made by Sunsoil, in Vermont. Talked to a local natural foods shop with a fine reputation and got very good advice. Will start with half a dropper, and plan to take it only at bedtime, about 200 mg. Tupp you're taking a pretty high dose but if it isn't harming you, that's cool!

I am very like you, Amber, in that I proceed with extreme caution. So I will be starting at a low dose and observe...etc. I hope it works.

I'm just going to use all barrels at bedtime for a while.

--strong chamomile
--Magnesium citrate (marketed as CALM), kind of internal epsom salts
--melatonin 3mg
--ashwagandha (200 mg for now)
--CBD oil (1/3 of standard dropper to start)

Last night I did the first three (plus about 3mg Ambien, which I'm getting OFF of)
and slept quite well. Took the second Ambien crumb after getting up to pee.

Thanks for your patience with all this, it has been so comforting to write it all out.

love
Hops

[Twoapenny]

That's great that you've got some things to try, Hops.  The only slight note of caution I'd suggest is that, if the ashwagandha is new, try that for a week before adding the CBD oil.  I just find that if I use more than one new thing at the same time, if there is a problem, then I don't know which one caused it.  You also might find that just one of those helps (in which case you won't need the other anyway).

Also, have you been able to check whether the Ambien and Melatonin is alright to take with ashwagandha?  I couldn't find much that was useful about interactions but I might be looking in the wrong places as I'm not familiar with any of those.

The last thing is just about dosing (with the CBD).  Although the strength I'm on is high (1,000mg) I take a very small amount each day - on average 9 - 12 drops (individual drops, not droppers).  So it's an awful lot less than you'll be taking in half a dropper.  Assuming the 200mg you mention is the strength of the oil, not the amount of liquid then you'll probably be taking as much, if not more than I do.  I might have worked it out wrong; my maths isn't great so I might have got the wrong end of the stick but basically the stronger the oil, the fewer drops you need (and by that I mean individual drops, not droppers).  Personally as you're already taking other things to help you sleep I'd hold off on the CBD until you've been taking the ashwagandha for a week and then if you feel you still need more try very small amounts to start with (ie, individual drops), especially if it might, as Skep experienced, increase anxiety.  I agree with Skep, sometimes the changes can be very subtle and it takes a while for you to notice.  Just my opinion, I could be wrong but mixed with all the other things you're taking I'd go very slowly and carefully.  It's taken me a year of trial and error to get a strength and a brand that works well for me and I haven't taken anything else new in the meantime, I just added it to my usual vitamins and St Johns Wort (which I've been taking for years now).  I am crossing my fingers you get good sleep whichever way you go about it xx

[Hopalong]

Very good points, from you both!
I so appreciate it.
I think super-careful dosing is key,
you're right, and not starting two
new things on the same night is very
sensible.

Thanks so very much.

I'm such a knowitall about health stuff,
and I'm really slipping not to have thought
about dosage details.

Tupp, the CBD dosage I've ordered is 250 mg
per dropper full I think. So I agree, I'm going
to start with just a few drops. And I'll triple
check I'm doing it very gradually. After a few
days if not a week I'll add just the Ashwaganaha
(plus the magnesium and chamomile and melatonin).

So for today, looks like I'll take the "bedtime"
dose of Ashwagandha, and hope for the best.
I literally (agnostically) pray I don't wind up
with all-night insomnia, because that's happened
six times in the last month or so and it's
torturous. So hard to come back from, even
with naps, which make for a sort of rebound.

Fingers crossed! But feeling optimistic. Have been
less dopey than usual today so far, and it's hard
not to think it was the Ashwaghanda. Also did a
seriously nutritious breakfast shake. I think I've
been quite short on protein.

hugs and thanks,
Hops

PS Finally found a supplement-supplement interaction database. Nothing showing for melatonin + ashwagandha. I'll plug them all in so it can check the pile.
https://www.drugs.com/interactions-check.php?drug_list=1548-0,2706-0

[Twoapenny]

That database does look good, Hopsie, I could only find stuff written by 'wellness gurus' who may well be right but I prefer it when stuff's been checked properly (even if the result is inconclusive).

I will keep everything crossed that you get some sleep, Hops.  I wouldn't be able to function at all on no sleep.  Will be really great if you can find a nice mix of easy to do or take things that just keep you nicely relaxed and in a good sleep routine without any grotty side effects.  Let us know in the morning how you got on xx

[Hopalong]

Sleep went okay.
I decided to take only a half-cap (100 mg) of the ashwagandha, and stuck with the magnesium/chamomile/melatonin trio too.

This is probably too granular to be interesting, but I realized (anxiety awhirl) that this is probably my most important health job right now (apart from re-introducing daily walks, even wee ones, to rebuild strength).

Because the pain was in the left side of my chest, and that's the side I sleep on (for some reason just can't drift off on my right side -- and on my back only during naps), I am fearful of developing fear of sleep. Every twinge in the chest scares me. I feel cowardly (well, I am) and nervous and rattled. About going to SLEEP.

So that's why I feel I need the full arsenal to help me break through this.

Good news is that I woke at around 7am feeling somewhat more rested than usual (ashwagandha? all the stuff together?). I had awakened at 230 to pee but mirabile dictu, eventually drifted off again. That's huge because for months I've been kind of tormented by not being able to return to sleep which would wipe out my energy for the next day (a nap would never really compensate).

So all in all, here I yam typing next to my SAD light, the sun is pouring in the window and this is the first COOL morning in ages. So Pooch and I will wobble up the block around 9am, and all of that is good.

Thanks for caring; if y'all were my sisters (you are)--this would be the kind of check-in conversation we could be having.

And did I tell you the sweet neighbor friend who drove me to the hospital presented me with a Certificate of Sisterhood when she came to pick me up? Nearly brought me to tears. I had expressed how awful I felt about calling her during the night and she was not going to let me stay there....declared me her sister and said I'm stuck with her. I tried to tell her what that meant (yearned my whole life for a sister).

I have a LOT to be grateful for. Especially this board.

love and thanks,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

So pleased that your lovely neighbour has done that for you, Hops, and made me think of you saying to your friend that you were there for her and happy to sit - she's not a burden to you and you're not to that other lady.  It's a really nice practical support network that you have there.

And also glad that the sleep was better than usual and hoping that the reduced anxiety (via ashwagandha) and perhaps more regular, peaceful sleep, might reduce your (very understandable) concern over the chest pains.  Well done, Hopsie, so good that you've taken steps to find a way to deal with this xx

[Hopalong]

(((((((Tupp))))))

Thank you. I find it almost humiliating or embarrassing
to talk in such detail about my body-fears, etc., but it
really has been a relief.

Since y'all have received it so kindly.

Much gratitude,
Hops

[lighter]

Hops, your neighbor is one of those people who restores faith in humanity, IME.  She doesn't have to be so kind and comforting, but that's who she is for you....
 amazing,
and I am amazed. 

I'm grateful she's there for you.

Now you're feeling a wee better, maybe when you go on your walks with pooch, take a seat in the shade, feel the breeze and notice the colors and shapes around you.  What's in your peripheral vision.  The space all around you.... beneath you... what's supporting you. 

::remembering the first time Hops posted about going outdoors, looking at bark, feeling the grass::.

And breathe....
mindfully....
filling the vase from bottom to top....
pooch out your tummy to fill bottom of your lungs first.....
breathing and going back to breath when the mind wonders.

It's all OK.

I also love kissing the earth with our feet meditation.  Slow walking, mindfully...... feeling the foot hit the ground, each small area touching the earth gently.

Remember,  splashing cold water on your face can engage your parasympathetic nervous system PNS as well as deep gargling and humming.   

If you're breathing calmly.... the tiger isn't chasing you.... can't be chasing you. 

You're safe,  ((Hops.))

I so want you to get back control of your biochemistry.

It seems focusing on SOMETHING at bedtime, to the exclusion of all else, would be helpful. 

Do you wear blue blockers 2 hours before bedtime?  Especially if you're looking at screens.  Sometimes that helps calm our brains before bedtime too.

What an amazing amount of information you've received on natural sleep remedies.  I'm glad they seem to be helping.

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

(((((((Tupp))))))

Thank you. I find it almost humiliating or embarrassing
to talk in such detail about my body-fears, etc., but it
really has been a relief.

Since y'all have received it so kindly.

Much gratitude,
Hops

It can be hard talking about or accepting that bits of us aren't working as well as they used to, Hops, and to admit that makes us scared.  But it's also very normal so I'm glad you've been able to talk about it here and reach out for some remedies to add to the mix.  I had a lot of chest pain issues a few years back, including a couple of ambulance dashes to hospital.  It was all anxiety related but it's very scary and I was told that the pain is almost identical to a heart attack or similar cardiac type problem so it's a tough situation to deal with.  I think you should be proud that you have dealt with it and that you're taking those steps to look after yourself and I hope things settle down for you soon xx

[sKePTiKal]

Hops, you'd be surprised how many people have had a severe enough panic attack to confuse it with a heart attack. Fear of having a panic attack (my old old friend did this) got so bad... she gave herself another one.

Where did we get the idea that fears are something to be embarassed about? That's wacky, when you think about it.
Fear is built into us, to keep alive. Courage isn't the absence of fear; it's being afraid and doing what's necessary anyway. But just like becoming friends with anger, it's helpful to get on good terms with our fears too.