Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Mindfulness and codependence thread
sKePTiKal:
I am more than OK, Hops. Both Hol & I are no strangers to our own anger. It wasn't directed at me at all. But it was all he was experiencing in the moment. Just like Hol, when she goes there. And the rare times I go off.
I understand where y'all are leaping to - and what's behind that. I survived that kind of thing in the past too. But it's the wrong meaning in this context. I would be the first of the bunch of us, to freak out if it was the other. And my radar for that kind of thing is NEVER wrong. Even in a crowd of strangers. Even if the dangerous person is a woman. And they DO exist.
But enough of this derailment! No worries.
Meh:
Darker emotions, they fascinate, we all have them right. We think maybe if we don't feed them they won't grow, if we ignore them or suppress them maybe they will go away, still they tell us something, it's just too bad they are so fear inducing and destructive. True feelings are destructive, isn't this weird, that so many relationships are topical and even careful and based on etiquette. Not that there is anything wrong with having manners, culture and expectations and people doing their part makes sense until it simply doesn't make sense for someone.
I've got no point. I just wanted to chime in somewhere even though I'm diving in like a sparrow to a random spot and then taking off again. This board is always in the back of my mind a little bit, then again at some point I think I got fed up and left for a while though I don't recall why.
I think I've always been threatened by men a bit regardless if they are angry but even more so if they are angry. On the other hand it's important for people to just be allowed to be angry right? As long as it's not the kind of anger that goes overboard. I guess it's all a matter of how it's directed and how it's worked out. Then again being angry is sort of an aggressive choice in how to deal with something, but is it a choice, doesn't it just live on it's own in it's emotional hinterland either outed or suppressed.
sKePTiKal:
Ah... G. You do seem like one of my "little birds". I have goldfinches - saw a red one last week too; bluebirds - more correctly - indigo buntings. I enjoy them so much when they come to visit.
I guess in my way of thinking, all the emotions are like the suits & cards in a deck. They are ALL important and useful, at different times. And therefore, again to my way of thinking, there are no "bad" emotions. Expressing them in ways that are healthy is the key, I guess. I am the poster girl for NOT expressing my emotions. And I can vouch for how dysfunctional and unhealthy THAT is.
Might be worth exploring while we're still waiting out the virus... are the concepts & archetypes of the divine masculine and feminine. It's relevant to people's "inner worlds" more so than the expressions in the outer world, I think. We all have elements of both.
Twoapenny:
Lighter, I've sat with your post for a few days as it was so layered and so much of it really resonated and struck a chord with me. I'm often struck by how similar our paths and experiences are.
Do you think that inability to rest and be okay with resting comes from running away from trauma, of some kind? Not being good enough or going through something painful? Keep busy, keep proving you can do x, y and z, keep striving to be better and eventually you'll feel better? Do you think that's where it stems from for you, or is it something else? It's what kept coming up for me as I read and thought about what you'd written (I think you have written a self help book by now, by the way, you could print off a lot of your posts and bind them together and it would be a really good self help bible. Lol).
It's a silly comparison to make, but I was watching Nigella on the TV (cookery lady, do you get her over there?). And she often talks about cooking tips and recipes that were passed down from her mother, grandmother and aunts, and about her own memories of helping her mum cook. It got me thinking about my mum, and that I can't remember her ever teaching or showing me anything, or explaining anything to me. Never taking any sort of initiative or interest. Only criticising. The attention only came when I did it wrong. And I think that's the nub of my not being able to rest. It is tied up with self worth, you're very perceptive to pick up on that. I don't want it to be and I try not to let it be that but anything less than absolutely perfect and beyond reproach is never good enough. Which I know is silly; even when I did do things well she still found something to pick at. And it's soooooo long ago now, but those nubs settle in so deeply. So what you said about being able to rest and just being able to do it - not needing to justify it or make up for it later on. That's a skill I want to try to cultivate. I am resting physically but it's not happening in my mind yet. But as you say you took the physical rest first and the mental rest followed. So I will keep resting. I've noticed how tired I've been since son had his college picnic. I felt very stressed by having to get up there and it's interacting with people that I find stressful - what they might do and what they might say. It was a hot day as well and I was conscious of having to just hang around for a couple of hours in all that heat. Plus got chatted up by a man in his 70s and it bothered me - that need by some to put their own needs first without any thought for the needs of the other person (I was sitting eating my sandwich - in no way giving off signals of any kind that I wanted a man to ask me if I was married or not and start talking about taking me out for a drink). It bothers me that I give energy to dealing with that politely instead of just telling someone to f off. I don't want to be hostile to people. But sometimes I wonder if it's what you need to do. I've gone off on a tangent now. Lol, I just mention it because it was to do with feeling tired and needing to rest, I think xx
lighter:
--- Quote from: Twoapenny on June 27, 2020, 09:40:16 AM ---Lighter, I've sat with your post for a few days as it was so layered and so much of it really resonated and struck a chord with me. I'm often struck by how similar our paths and experiences are. Me too. ::noticing the shame threatening::. I know your childhood was harder than mine. I think I always have some wave of shame wash over me when I see similarities in paths... as far as the legal go, then remember how different childhoods were. A negative voice always rises up and tries to shame me, when really..... it's not helpful.
No one had a perfect childhood. I can have my stuff, and it doesn't mean I'm comparing at all. I never do. But that voice.... I'm noticing it, and seeing what's underneath it. What other people think, I guess. My anger... my protectiveness rises up, too. Like I COULD protect you, ever. Silly. I can't, but there's reactivity there..... bc you should have been protected, of course. And this comes down to acceptance.... still struggling with that, and noticing it.
T said to look for that... when things come up, feel wrong... to see if I'm fighting acceptance. I DO, still. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it. Internalize it. Make friends with it.
Do you think that inability to rest and be okay with resting comes from running away from trauma, of some kind? Not being good enough or going through something painful? Keep busy, keep proving you can do x, y and z, keep striving to be better and eventually you'll feel better? Do you think that's where it stems from for you, or is it something else? It's what kept coming up for me as I read and thought about what you'd written (I think you have written a self help book by now, by the way, you could print off a lot of your posts and bind them together and it would be a really good self help bible. Lol). I think there IS underneath all the seeking/avoiding... deep things we uncover and discover with patient awareness. With ongoing curiosity. With getting past what we do to avoid feeling and seeing.... very similar to crying like a small child... just letting it all goooo. We take deep breaths, hold our breath, we resist and fight it without being aware. The same with going deep, underneath the stuff we can see now, to see what's underneath it. And we all have stuff. We all have to figure out how to use the new tools and apply them, over and over, till things get easier.
What little child wants to KNOW their parents are bad parents, much less toxic and dangerous? That's something that's hidden away and locked up tight, so the child can survive. It has to be unlocked, but the unlocking doesn't have to be difficult if we relax into it and give permission and parent ourselves through it, IME.
For all those pieces to come together...
awareness,
remembering the tools,
remembering the mission and breathing throughout the process,
creating space for something wer'e trusting in, but unable to anticipate, bc it's new....
continuing to create space, which means we silence the negative voices, and go back to resting, avoiding judgment... i t's like riding waves.... easier on the downside. Harder on the upside,but it's the same wave, and maybe we create the hard and easy in our minds. Maybe, once we have the tools in hand, and the space... it just works without effort.
Maybe letting it happen, rather than doing it... is the secret. Simpler than anything we've ever done, but everything's been hard, or we interpret it as hard, bc...... running tapes in the background, seeking and avoidance behaviors to keep from seeing the tapes.
It's a silly comparison to make, but I was watching Nigella on the TV (cookery lady, do you get her over there?). And she often talks about cooking tips and recipes that were passed down from her mother, grandmother and aunts, and about her own memories of helping her mum cook. It got me thinking about my mum, and that I can't remember her ever teaching or showing me anything, or explaining anything to me. Never taking any sort of initiative or interest. Only criticising. The attention only came when I did it wrong. I don't find that silly in any way, Tupp. It makes me very sad, and I want to hug young Tupp so badly.
To SEE and experience that closeness, through Nigella's stories and shared experience... that makes so much sense to me. Of course your experience is conjured when you listen and watch sometihng altogether opposite your own experience. I think that's information you're ready to see and process. I wonder how much of it is about final acceptance... your mother was broken and flawed and doing her best, however wretched and toxic, her best based on the causes and conditions she was raised with. Whatever went wrong... it wasn't anything you could control. You didn't create those conditions. You suffered bc of them, and nothing about it was rigth or good. You were a beautiful, worthy infant who deserved a good enough mother you didn't receive. Nothing can change that. Accepting that.... is perhaps part of releasing the haunting, the avoidance the seeking behaviors behind it? It's real and it's inside your bone and skin and brain..... and you deserve to finish it... make peace with it.... accept and file it in historic files. Lord knows... what hope of doing that did you have during the last 15 years? With her constant attacks, that were very real. There's no swiping that under the rug, Tupp. No healing in the midst of threat and battle, IME.
I see the need for deep forgiveness, for us both, bc maybe we feel we SHOULD have overcome it... gotten past it.... healed through it, but honestly..... I don't think there's a soul on this earth, outside an experienced monk, who could have. People say things.... they have SHOULDS and they don't understand how that's just complicating the process, IME.
DOING more isn't the problem. It's releiving the pressure that's built, so the brain can rest, and shift and process and finish everything held up by trauma, and stacked for future processing. THIS is the time for processing, and the creating this backlog will have to change for the process to continue. This is tied to childhood, and not so easy to tease apart... so many things, on different levels, but SEEING that can't happen until we stop judging and shift reliably into observer mode... and continue resting... even when habit pulls us out of rest.... shift back, again and again and notice what comes up. What stops us. Why. And continue. It's trusting we'll be OK if we release all the habits that got us through, isn't it? Our brain pathways don't want to change... they believe their keeping us alive... there's resistance there as well. Another layer, but it's interesting now. Not threatening. Not daunting. Just interesting to see what's there... what comes up. WHere it takes us. Trusting we can handle it now.... trust helps us stay out of our limbic systems.... brains integrated, and on line.... capable and ready to do the processing.
cultivate. I am resting physically but it's not happening in my mind yet. There's all the judgment and guilt to notice and quiet down, IME. The bartering I used to do..... so unconscious... promising I'll do A and B and C IF I allow myself to rest for a while... not long.... and that's the thing. Resting beyond anywhere we've ever gone before... takes focus. And that can feel like work too. Focus on rest. On noticing what comes up, dealing with it and continuing.
But as you say you took the physical rest first and the mental rest followed. The mental focus on rest was like a merry go round.... resistance kept coming up, and my permission to feel it, notice it and continue past it kept coming up, over and over. So I will keep resting.
Rest and notice what comes up. The voices.
Judgements. Bargains. Then pat it on the head, let it know it's no longer necessary, you can rest safely now, and keep resting more deeply your mind, your guard, your expectations for what you must do. Let all the shoulds go.... and stay curious... aware.
I've noticed how tired I've been since son had his college picnic. I felt very stressed by having to get up there and it's interacting with people that I find stressful - what they might do and what they might say.
I felt very much like that. Then I just went to that bbq and enjoyed myself immensely. Beyond my ability to comprehend, in fact. I dont' know it if was trusting or time having passed or what, but it got better. Your situation included people you'[ve had conflict with, and things that perhaps could have upset your son. Maybe you needed to be as protective as you felt, OR... maybe it's OK to trust and shift into observer mode... get very curious and see what's really there. Honestly, the guy interrupting your quiet lunch... that's reason for protection and anxiety, IME. I used to be knocked sideways by it too... and I think there are types of people drawn to quiet people who aren't smiling and engaged in the world... which was always me in public. I live in my head. That attracts some people, and that's OK. We can say.... I'd like to chat, but I'm having lunch now. Have a nice day. Bye. Can't we? Without feeling responsible for the person's feelings? Right? I think we can, but we have to figure out WHY we feel responsible for others, when all. we have to feel responsible for is OURSELVES. Figuring out what's ours and what belongs to others, and internalizing it, is part of things getting easier, I'm sure. It was a hot day as well and I was conscious of having to just hang around for a couple of hours in all that heat. Plus got chatted up by a man in his 70s and it bothered me - that need by some to put their own needs first without any thought for the needs of the other person (I was sitting eating my sandwich - in no way giving off signals of any kind that I wanted a man to ask me if I was married or not and start talking about taking me out for a drink). It bothers me that I give energy to dealing with that politely instead of just telling someone to f off. There's sometihng in between, Tupp. Firm assertion.... I know there is. I don't want to be hostile to people. But sometimes I wonder if it's what you need to do. I've gone off on a tangent now. Lol, I just mention it because it was to do with feeling tired and needing to rest, I think xx
I think rest is a really good place to notice what's going on, Tupp. And... my tangents are waaaay longer than yours; ) Lighter
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