Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Mindfulness and codependence thread
lighter:
--- Quote from: Twoapenny on July 30, 2020, 03:33:38 AM ---That storm sounds like a brilliant analogy for life, Lighter, and one that we can't access when we're still dealing with all the 'stuff'. I've got x, y and z in place. I can do no more than that. Let's just enjoy this. Yes. Amazing that you've come so far along this journey now that you can choose whether or not to be scared. You've got that much control over your own responses now. Wow. Did you imagine you could get to that point? I know over the many years I've been working on myself I've often wondered if I can reach a true state of 'I'm just doing my thing now' and genuinely not be thinking about other things. What an inspirational story from you. And it sounds like a lot of fun as well! I love storms but I do remember being out in one once with my son and a thunder clap going off directly above us and dear Lord, my heart nearly stopped. It's just so loud. Mother Nature showing she's a bad ass :)
I really resonated with what you wrote about forming a secure attachment with yourself. Makes so much sense and is something that can cause problems if we don't manage it in our earlier years, I think. I've often felt that I'm acting at being a grown up, rather than actually being one. I think the secure attachment is a part of being a grown up.
T's crying. How do you feel about that? I feel similar to how you feel about it, Tupp.
The first time it happened I had the feeling the T had zero answers, and nothing helpful to say... though she very much wanted to help. She was very in tune with my story as I told it in present tense.... I talked about my late husband as though he was still with us. I never referred to him in past tense..... he was IN MY FACE, still next to me, chasing and threatening me inside my head... relentlessly. My nose was on the pebble, and my body was reacting..... my biochemistry had been hijacked for 2 years at that point. I think she realized it, but had no vocabulary.... training to understand or HELP ME understand it.
She saw what was, but didn't understand how I got there, or what I needed to get myself OUT. She didn't understand the concept of getting a nose off a pebble, IMO.
It would have helped me so much to have the ability to create emotional distance, and access my parasympathetic nervous system.... I had no idea what it was, much less what it did or how much control I had access to IF someone walked me through it. That T had nothing to give, and her feeling of being helpless and hopeless, for me, made me feel I was inflicting my pain onto her, and doing harm TO her. I was in no position to caretaker her, so there was no question I wouldn't go back. She didn't deserve to suffer with me, and I see now how a T CAN have empathy, but stay focused on calming the brain and body so the brain can do what it was made to do.... and does efficiently.... process information efficiently when stress is reduced. When trauma is addressed and reduced.... consistently..... without judgment or expectation.... just very frank, helpful steps and avenues and zero judgment. Well.... IME it's quite a trick to point out judgment of oneself WITHOUT judging. Everything is about reducing stress... giving permission to be kind and forgiving with oneself, always. Unconditionally. Making it a priority.... and reminding it's not a perfect process. It's messy and comes nd goes and we return, gently, consistently, and continue on without losing focus on the mission. I knew I couldn't help that T, so I didn't go back. I couldn't help myself, much of the time. There was no question I'd feel better while watching her suffer too.
There was a Psychiatrist who saw my ASPD stbx with me, as a couple, and each on our own. He'd headed up a male pscyh ward for.... criminally insane men... I think. Written many books. Was likely past the age of retirement...... and he spoke to me very frankly. Zero compassion. I read his notes.... I didn't much like him. I remember almost losing control of my bladder in his office when he said... "The goal of these sessions has shifted from reconciling a marriage to keeping you alive during a potential divorce..... the danger isn't riding the tiger... the danger is in getting off the tiger." I'm paraphrasing, of course.
No one, up to that point, had been willing to consider I was in mortal danger. HE understood, and he doubted my ability to divorce without being killed. I remember it felt like the floor dropped out from under me.... adrenaline hit me..... it hit my feet and hands painfully. All the while... this man just blinked at me.... looking for..... a reaction? My response? I was just quiet... wide eyed.... very used to NOT showing any response, no matter what was said or done to me at that point. But that T understood what he was seeing and hearing when he spoke to STBX ASPD. His dx was Psychopath with heavy N features.
When I went back to see him, after ASPD died, The T was very flippant..... he said something like....
"You should have aimed for his foot." I believe it was at that point I decided he was past the age of retirement. He never had anything helpful to say.... ever. He was always very hopeless..... he said.....
"there's nothing to be done.... you couldn't do anything different to get a different outcome... you're trapped... at the mercy of... etc." Paraphrasing here, but that was the message AND he presented as someone with all the answers and very large ego.... had written books, blah blah..... very sure of himself, and had zero empathy. That was equally unhelpful, but moved me into a deeper sense of dread and fear...... a whole'nuther level, in fact.
The T who referred me to him was a psychologist who was getting pretty frustrated in a "THAT's what sociopaths DO" sort of way. I'd say ASPD did THIS, and he'd respond in a droll manner... "That's what sociopaths DO." And he had zero help to offer as well. Just.... nothing outside "That's what Sociopaths DO." He realllly needed me to GET THAT. To stop talking about all the things being DONE TO ME and my children. To.... do what? I have no idea. He had no tools for calming myself. In fact, he often said things that were very upsetting... sort of like the Psychiatrist... very frank doomsday stuff about how I was at the mercy of. He SO got that. I remember him explaining to STBX ASPD how saying things to me like..... "He sure would be sorry if something bad happened to me in a divorce." The T said it would have been like a man cleaning his fingernails with a big sharp knife, while telling his wife it sure woudl be terrible if anytihng bad happened to her.... if she didn't comply with him." Just dreadful. Not good answers. NO answers at all, really.
I wonder if I'd had tools for calming myself... not pills, if I'd have fought my way out of that situation and avoided all the trauma and terror and tragedy. I won't know, but I clearly SEE how it would have helped, even if it didn't save us
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INSERT HERE:
I left out I'd spoken to ASPD STBX in anger ONE time during 3 year period in courts... He grabbed me on the stairs, in front of witnesses, and hurt me.... I snapped back at him.....
"I'm going to divorce you and marry another man who your children will call Daddy."
_____________________________________________________________
So, that one thing..... was a slip, said in anger.... with a man's hands on me in anger...... threatening... harming..... I said it and I meant it and he knew I did. It was all but done and over in the courts, but so far away, bc ASPD was adept at using and manipulating the justice system. I believed him when he said I'd be screaming, and running away like my hair was on fire just to escape the court system.... when it was all done and over. He showed me what he meant, right from the start. Manipulating my own attorney..... making it so hard. Making me look insane, like a liar, like a participant on Jerry Springer show..... manipulating me with fear.... and see.... I really can't help but wonder how things would have gone if I HAD THESE TOOLS. Could have calmed myself down. I did what I could..... I had a really good neuromuscual massage T who unlocked things so I could breathe again.... walk again... get off the floor and keep going again. I didn't have anyone who could do that with my mind, and it felt like I was blindfolded, on an operating table.... with all these shadowy men standing over me with sharp instruments..... and I was at their mercy. I remember that vision vividly. And I remember feeling I was standing on a high cliff.... toes over the edge..... wind whipping my hair around my face, wrapping it.... hair in my eyes and mouth. The wind so loud I wouldn't be heard, even if I screamed, which I didn't. I'd learned to be still, and wait. Just...... not move..... not react..... it was my default, until it wasn't, and then it was again, then it wasn't. I'd be energized by a task.... get smacked down by someone on my team of attorneys, and they never all agreed on ANYTHING. Then it just.... was my default. I think I'd still BE there if not for this T.
Another T.... somatic T..... did the "Feel your seat, wiggle your toes, notice the trees" thing, but didn't explain anything about WHY or what we were doing it for. Nothing about about the brain, biochemistry, reactivity, fight or flight or parasympathetic nervous system.... nothing. I guess I'm someone who does better with more information than less. It seems like everything I've learned has built on itself, IME.
There were Ts in my first marriage. The first one put me on Paxil, which shut down my body AND left me suffering physically on top of emotionally. I fired him and made him write a letter stating he'd made a mistake prescribing Paxil, bc it was harmful, not helpful and wrong to prescribe in my case. I was in a very dysfunctional marriage, and the next marriage counselor I saw just said it out loud..... after listening to my husband talk and talk and talk and complain about me.... just when it was MY turn to speak... the T shut it down, handed me a divorce attorney's card, STBX a divorce attorney's card, and told us to leave his office, and never speak to each other again, bc "H had no empathy for me, and every human being needs empathy."
H and I left that appointment in a daze. I felt voiceless, but had learned I often left that T's office feeling anger. Then... later.... I sort of got what he was saying and agreed with him...but grudgingly. That T was right, but he was also an ex marine with a very gruff manner, and old fashioned view of women that really did harm when I saw him with the ASPD stbx.
That T was also the person who introduced me to my favorite martial arts instructor, so.... things sort of evened out.
e had many over the years who've cried in front of me and said they feel tearful and/or emotional about what I said and to be honest, I don't like it. I get that's it's probably about showing you that it's okay to feel emotions and respond to them but I kind of like them to be strong and stoical. I think it pings too much on my "I must look after you" buttons and I feel like I have to watch what I say so they don't get upset. Does it bother you if they do it? IF my current T had cried, I don't think it would have bothered me in the least, BC she very steadily moved along a healing path, and she's very centered and level in her own mind and body. She has answers. She knows how to share and teach them. She has zero ego investment and she doesn't feel hopeless. She has answers. She's confident and that's her manner.... her tone.... her eyes pour out and transfer calm, caring reassurance....
all will be well, and I didn't understand it, at first, but she brought me along, however much I struggled or fought at times.... she found a way through, and I wasn't always able to hear her...... wasn't always able to understand or calm myself enough to understand. That's more truthful.
I saw her enough times..... was lead OUT of survival mode enough times to finally understand.... finally trust... finally comprehend how holding on to the injustice... mostly around my children being harmed and leveraged in order to harm me...... was doing ongoing harm I could check and reverse. THAT was an important message I finally got. I needed to hear it. The current T has lived it herself. She practices her own healing journey daily. She's been here. She's gotten herself out, and she's living a joyful life... she doesn't believe she has any problems when she things about it. That's how far her nose IS.... off the pebbles. As I gain more distance, I gain more understanding and control over my own perspective. Expanding spaciousness for ourselves.....
is EVERYTHING. That wouldn't have made any sense at all, this time last year.
And seeing the world through the eyes of a child. I've found that so much with my boy; giving him the sort of childhood my mum didn't give me - the playing and making mud pies, long walks in the woods gathering acorns and leaves, reading stories, dressing up, finger painting, all that stuff. It was like it healed up the little girl in me who longed to do that. My dad did that stuff with me, I was lucky in that respect. It really helps all of us to have that happy childhood, I think, even if it's in adult life that it occurs. Really lovely reading your posts. I think this T is a very good fit for you.
--- End quote ---
I agree, ((Tupp)) I also believe the old saying...
when the student is ready, the teacher appears.
I was ready.
You were ready.
It's all OK: )
I so enjoyed reading about you and your boy enjoying making mud pies and BEING childlike together. I'm glad your father allowed you to be your authentic little child self, without conditions. So glad: )
Lighter
Hopalong:
This is very, very powerful, Lighter.
Yes, perhaps if you'd had those tools, there would have been a better way open.
It was what it was at that time.
It's such a good thing that you've become unfrozen and moved forward.
I think your present T is a genius, of a kind. I understand the impulse to stop therapy but hope you will consider even monthly, so just in case...you haven't broken continuity with her.
I could not live my comparably utterly humdrum life with humdrum-by-compariosn traumas without therapy, and I wonder at your capacity to always test yourself to the extreme limit of everything. What if there was really no need to do that, if keeping and maintaining a connection with this remarkable T could be a grounded, maintenance part of your well being? So you're not always working on it as a solo Amazon? Would it be worth asking yourself, do I HAVE to triumph completely, as in fighting all fights on my own because I've...won? Proven something? Vanquished?
Could there be a modified sense of victory that is good enough? For a settled life with inner peace? I just wonder if an all-out win over all of it is a fair goal for you.
Lastly, I really do see how physical your life is, where your wisdom is, where your hope is. You will always have this. Different, calmer strength. But I think you'll be one of those spry ancient ones some day. Not mighty, because mighty changes. But spry is pretty darn good. Especially when she's spry and happy.
hugs
Hops
Twoapenny:
Lighter, I get chills whenever you write anything about the things your ex did and said. I always get a picture in my mind of the husband in the film which I've forgotten the name of - Julia Roberts is in it, she fakes her death to get away from him and then when he finds her again he torments her by doing things like lining up the tins in the cupboard so that she knows he's there. But it's that sort of casual instilling of fear that you so often hear of in relationships and it just makes me think, for the love of Mary, why can't we all just be nice to each other? So many people damaged by other people's behaviour. It gives me the chills. I'm so glad you got away and even gladder that you've kept working to get yourself to such a calm and happy space now.
Those therapists you mention all belong in Dr G's book about how dodgy some therapy is! I've been lucky, I think, I've had therapists who weren't a good fit but they've not done more than mildly annoy me really. NHS therapists and mental health services in general, on the other hand, are a cesspit and seem to be entirely made up of the kind of people you've described so after a brief experience with them when I was younger I have avoided them like the plague ever since.
I think you and I are very similar in what helps us - I like to know how things work and why they do that and if someone tells me I need to do x, I need to understand why in order to do it. I think there's a good point between fact based information and empathy and it sounds like your current T is in that place. So good that she's got you to such a good place of understanding. Yes, you were ready and the teacher appeared! So happy for you. Want to give you a transatlantic cuddle (socially distanced, anyway) :) Lol xx
sKePTiKal:
Lighter - that's the most I think I've seen you say about your experience. I'll bet there was a LOT of processing needed to be able tell it like that. It gets easier.
I grok the freeze instinct you describe; I experienced a bit of that too. But I was way more comfortable with my fight & flight reflex (back then I was a fast runner) and for me, that was my avenue back to trusting myself again. Recognizing that I'd done all I could do; I didn't give up - even though I "lost" anyway. Compassion was necessary at that point; self-empathy in a way... but it wouldn't have fixed the real root problem of trusting my self. How I came to blame myself for much much more - was almost a separate issue and way more complex.
YES, understanding how our brains work fills in a lot of blanks. The wonderful ability of mind-body connection to heal/calm/clarify really & truly needs to be utilized a LOT more often as an adjunct to other therapeutic methods.
Sometimes, I think it can all be (over)simplified down to shifting our thinking, feeling, rumination and obsessions away from we accept we CAN'T do... to accepting and acting on, what we CAN.
After the healing stage, comes restoring. Sometimes there are changes made during restoration; for strength or cohesiveness; clarity/unity of expression. You sound REALLY good; I'm happy for you!
lighter:
Hops:
I'm not giving up my T. I do want to feel good about the time and money I'm spending, and more time between visits means I'll have time to identify larger issue between appointments.
That's my instinct, and that's the plan: ) Every other week, until I feel every 3 weeks, then monthly. I won't stop.
Lighter
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