Mindfulness and codependence thread

[Twoapenny]

Aw, Lighter, Happy Birthday DD19!  I hope you find something fabulous to wear and have a lovely evening.

I do think a lot of people are 'switched on' a lot of the time.  I think our modern world, bizarrely, is more stressful than life was when a lot more had to be done manually and communication involved actually speaking and/or seeing people face to face (or putting pen to paper and walking to the post box!).  You would think really that we'd all be living in a state of bliss as we have so many gadgets and gizmos to do the boring but necessary work and most of us only grow or hunt for food if we want to, we don't usually have to (not the case in some parts of the world, I know, but in the Western World I think that's mostly the way).  And yet so many of us are unhappy, unfulfilled, stressed and so on.  I know I use technology to escape - ideally I'd like a life that I don't want to escape from.

Anyway, digressing!  Have a wonderful evening xx

[Hopalong]

I hear you, ((((Lighter)))).
I think the switched-on anxious culture is very perceptive, and true for individuals too. I'm certainly one who deals with recurring anxiety -- I sound like Chicken Little in my own head at times.

I also understand how frustrating it is to know that you've perceived something (about individuals, or our society--which is like a big individual with a set of ills) and yet recognize that other people are at different places along the spectrum of self-education (if any!) or commitment (if any!) or action (if any!).

It IS hard.

Not so much about medicine or food, but for me, my caretaking issue/talent (depends) flares up regularly. I'm getting better at it with the years, though. My D was my biggest lesson. The culture/planet/violence/climate/politics thing has ground me fine, so I'm releasing that for a breather. Add pandemic causes and effects of people's behavior? That one's especially painful but I've released it too.

Had a round of thought and choices about it this morning. At a church garden event a few weeks ago I ran into a woman I've always admired and liked. Our social circles overlap but we were not close friends. She had spectacular bruising from a recent fall. She's 79. I said casually, you know, I always intended to come see your new place (she moved 3 years ago) and never did it...would you like a visit? Long story short she said that would be nice and I went by yesterday. Both to see her but also selfishly, because I had begun stewing in my lonely-weekend feelings and said to myself, you know what the cure is...go visit somebody. And I remembered our chat at the party.

I got there at 4pm and she was already half a sheet to the wind. A little intoxicated. I was there 2.5 hours and by the time I left, she was clearly drunk. Huge bottle of wine at the ready. Slurring, off balance (she's had hip surgery). I know my stuff about this and her situation is clearly dangerous as well as sad (has two kids--one on the other side of the country and one in Mexico). I tried a few tactful inquiries: shall I stick this back in the fridge for you? (No, leave it out) and You sure you're okay? (Fine) etc.

Struggled with myself over whether I should do anything but it was still really troubling me this morning. Called an older very wise "Friend A" I trust a lot and described the situation without naming the person. Told her I wasn't an appropriate person to directly intervene and also know I need to be wary of assigning myself the rescuer role (Friend A knows/understands my history), but as we're in a "beloved community" and the woman is an elder, living alone (two floors, bedroom upstairs, one skimpy handrail), and clearly in danger (still drives)...etc., I needed to talk it over. I also worked through with her the ethics of "outing" the woman's situation (iow, naming her) and Friend A said I think it is ethical, and also think I may know who you're talking about (they're in the closer circle). It was so helpful.

Bottom line, what we came to was that my next is to call the woman's closest friend (Friend B) in that circle, share the concerns (telling her I've talked it over with Friend A). Friend A thinks that I have helped her (Friend A) by alerting her, which made her feel not guilty but motivated to do something more to help (other than just worry, which her circle already is doing). So now, they have choices they can follow up on:

--talk to the minister
--talk to the pastoral care team
--etc

If someone wise and TRAINED feels it's appropriate, an alcohol intervention might take place. Or other steps. I know them all (snagging the car keys is one). I personally could see her being much happier in an apartment complex like the one the elders I worked for lived in. When desired, in and out of each others' places, checking on each other...card playing groups, organized outings and dinner together 5 nights a week. That kind of thing. I actually can see it as a real positive, although getting to that choice ain't easy for elders. (I can see it for me in a decade, likely. If I can afford it.)

Anyhow, all I'm rambling about is that I do understand the desire to alert folks to things you know you see and know a lot about that would help them. And for me, I also have to make peace with figuring out the point on the graph at which I release the outcome.

What I wish for bruised friend is that she not be so alone, that she have more support so she might modify or limit her drinking, and that she be not only loved but also safe.

I can't be sure all that will happen, but I felt the need to do/say what I could. I've done that before (with Gennulman, for those who remember...who died ultimately of his addiction). Because he and I had been so close that was super painful but my conscience was at peace. I think now with bruised friend, it will be as well.

Sad and avoidable stuff does happen--to strangers and people we love. But once we offer what we can or feel morally obliged to do in terms of raising awareness, releasing the outcome is both difficult and a big relief.

Feels like a tightrope walk sometimes, doesn't it?
You're a good person to care so much.

Hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

PS -- Not sure which thread you mentioned it on, but wanted to thank you for the heads-up about Ashwagandha interactions. Decided to check again (the only one I remembered was diabetes medication) and found I'm in the clear. The biggies are diabetes meds, sedatives, and HBP meds. I don't take those so should be fine.

I do take melatonin and, when I need it, a tiny crumb of ambien (about 1-1.5 mg) for sleep, but since I do the ashwaghanda in the mornings, I'm pretty sure it's okay.

One combo that may be dragging out my mornings is the newer statin/antifungal combo (I find the latter interesting but the research papers are too deep for me) for cholesterol. Then again, my own "wee glass o' wine" is more likely the real culprit. Pressing my thumb down harder on that so it never slips over my limit.

Although I know cholesterol can be managed through extreme commitment to extreme diet (say, Pritikin), I ain't a candidate. One of the favorite jokes at Rodale when I was an editor for Prevention was "Q: What's Dr. Nathan Pritikin's best chicken soup recipe? A: Put a pot of water in the sun and wave a chicken over it."

Snicker. I have been hesitating a bit over my lazy ovo-lacto-pescatarianism, and need to step up the beans and rice. I do eat fish a couple times a week and likewise an egg every other day, but I know I'm not getting all the protein I need. Toying with the idea of finding a source for local hunted venison, which I would feel fine with. Cows/chickens are suffering for me anyway, with dairy and eggs. I pay nearly $7/doz for the most-humane eggs in existence (pasture-raised not "cage free", organic, certified humane) and can't afford a fancy food budget. If I could find a local hen keeper who kisses her hens goodnight I'd do that, but they're in short supply, and I don't just take the word of the folks selling eggs at the city market.

Most of my problem is laziness, I'm good on the info part (or good enough for me). I do understand and admire the interest. Takes commitment and discipline (I've heard of these things! LOL) but also budget and energy. I'm slowly and sloppily working on all four.

The ashwagandha is really helping, I believe, in a gentle, subtle way.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Hops:

I take 2 Ashwaghanda at bedtime, bc it makes me sleepy....brings a little restful night in most cases.

I take 1 at different times and different days if anticipating stress.  I let my body guide that choice.

About your dilemma with the bruised friend.... it's good to accept the situation as a double bind, ime.  There's no good choice or action, ime.  Acting, to mitigate harm, puts you in a certain harm's way, ime, but we do what we feel is the least harmful thing, ime.  When we care very much....and how much is too much?

In the meantime, I hope you can connect with this wonderful woman in ways avoiding too much drinking for her.

Once I had a terrific roommate, but she often drank too much.  It didn't stop us from enjoying each other's company, laughing, going out, comforting each other through nightmarish problems.  I decided the good times were worth the times she drank too much.  It  was simple math and I made peace with the fact I couldn't save her from herself, or rapy men outside my home/ times I was with her. 

Her drinking put her in peril, but it wasn't my peril to fix.  We talked about it.  I understood the root of the pain and I think she did too.  She just couldn't wrap her head around it or begin to process the sadness/pain/frustration/conflicted feelings and FOO relationships creating the seeking/avoidance behaviors she struggled with.

I do remember how astonished and grateful she was when I told her failure was OK.  She never heard, felt or otherwise perceived failure wouldn't kill her.  On some level she believed she couldn't survive it.

What a terrible way to move through this imperfect life.  It made me so sad.

Eventually drinking killed her, but not before she fell, twice, down her stairs.  The second fall damaged a nerve rendering her arm paralyzed....it just withered.  So sad. 

I realize I never had the power to save her.  Losing her job didn't help.  Being on a kidney replacement list didn't do it.  All the pressure and judgment if her dysfunctional FOO didn't do it.

If I knew then what I know now.... I'd have made appointments with a trauma informed T then driven her to those appointments, butit was her work to do.  Not mine.

Your friend might get defensive, offensive, wicked mean or she might give lip service and say what she thinks people want to hear. 

Best case scenario might show up after she goes through both.  It's hard to say, but I'm glad she has friends who care and aren't afraid to show up for her. 

You're desire to help outweighs your fear and discomfort.  You're a good person with good intentions and any negative reactivity isn't about you or people trying to help.  It's about her....and there's no perfect way to help. 

You've done what you feel you can.  Don't judge it or let anyone else judge you either.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Lighter. I pretty much agree with everything you said.
The sadness of it being someone soon to be 80 is acute, but I am not close to her. I don't expect any personal blowback and at the same time, am not stepping in much closer to absorb the sadness of it directly. I've played that same role enough times in my life and know there will be times to again. This situation isn't mine, except as a part of a committed community, however tangentially these days.

I spoke up (to Friends A and B) because I felt a moral/kind of religious obligation. Until I did, I didn't know the others were also aware she was drinking too much. They hadn't been fully, though Friend B said at the shared beach house, even 2 years ago she'd be missing activities because she'd just disappear to her room with a bottle of wine. So evidently it isn't just the pandemic.

And they've been worried. Each of them thanked me for talking to them about it -- because it's worse now than they'd realized -- and Friend B liked one idea I'd offered...going together with perhaps a few others from the closer circle to speak to the minister and get her professional advice. When I first called Friend A I did tell her I understood that people can kill themselves if they want to (or she mentioned her belief and I said I agree) but that I also feel that as part of a "beloved community" I have an expectation that we not limit ourselves entirely to "hands-off hand-wringing". We bill ourselves as a "caring community", so...at least try.

She is isolated. She is in danger. She is suffering. She is an elder without family support (sound familiar?). I know projection could be part of it, but I actually have felt for many, many years that NO elder should never be isolated and without support. I said I feel that folks who are that vulnerable require some caring and community support in a similar way that children do. Although elders have more agency and deserve respect for their own independent choices, however harsh...at least those around them who pledge such love and concern (our church "caring community") can try to make a difference. Maybe just trying only once is the right thing. But more than hand wringing.

If nothing can be helped, then a spiritual approach will help the community accept the outcome. But if you KNOW someone is in real danger, unnecessarily, and don't even try to summon her aid...that doesn't sit right for me. I think everybody involved would regret it. There are things that can be offered her that could help:

--a ride or company to (open) AA meetings
--a pendant/Life Alert subscription
--a climbing seat for her unsafe staircase
--simply more visits, perhaps

My advocacy for frail elders is very old, as I committed to it when I was about 16. I saw a documentary on nursing homes (I remember it was narrated by Lord Snowden, whoever he was) in Britain, came upstairs in tears, and swore to both my parents I would never allow them to languish in neglect in such a place. And I didn't. (Even in Nmom's final year in rehab, I was there nearly every day bringing small comforts and supervised her situation closely. She was never abandoned.)

So anyway, for once I think I got the balance right. I've spoken to those closest to her, they know it's more urgent now and are feeling motivated to take some kind of step, and I've released the outcome. I hope it'll be good, since she's a very interesting and accomplished person who has contributed a lot to the world (taught social work at college level, and also did many things for years bringing women at church into connection) and deserves a kinder end. I hope she will have that.

All I did personally was to email to say how much I'd enjoyed seeing her and her new home, and that it'd eased my "Saturday lonelies" to spend time with her. Also told her that if she'd ever like to visit me, I'd love to have her here, and to say the word if she'd like another visit (as I am "more portable" than she right now). It felt right and also like enough. I doubt she'll respond to it, but that's released too.

Thanks for understanding all that.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

I feel confusion over your almost 80yo friend's recent choice to purchase a home with stairs, Hops. Did I read that right?  Esp since she drinks to the point if being unsteady on her pegs.

 It also frightens me, bc that willful lack of self awareness and honesty regarding health limitations is something I could slip into....maybe. 

I hope she listens if any form of intervention is mounted on her behalf.  My neighbor is hanging on to his 2 story home despite many falls and crumbling health.  He'll do that, presumably, until he breaks a hip or arm, or worse.  Then the decision won't be his to make.  It's a choice.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

It's not only 2-story but the stairs have one spindly handrail on the wall side, and nothing/zip/zero/air on the other. So one slip sideways as she goes up or down and she'd fall off into the first floor; land on furniture. (Given both her drinking and very unsteady walk after hip surgery, seems a high risk to me.)

She bought her house 3 years ago. Perhaps the drinking wasn't quite so bad then; I don't know--not that in touch with her circle. I hope they're able to help her -- she's a stubborn, outspoken woman (like lots of my favorites!) and won't make it easy.

Sounds like your neighbor's in a similar situation; I hope he remains safe. The thing about old-age falls...oh well, you know. It's very sad. Too many people are alone who shouldn't be (she said, projecting again.) Many are successfully independent for a long time (I have a neighbor, age 90, on her own--but my other neighbor checks on her every day, drives her to the doctor, etc, so she has that support).

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

The neighbor has a wife dealing with her own debilitating arthritis situation.  A single story home is an obvious choice.  He's just not ready.

Your home is a single story, right, Hops?
Lighter

[lighter]

My aT is seeing patients in her office again, yay yay!

I won't see her next week....want to spend that time at Lake getting out ahead if contractor.  There's decisions creating resistance for me.  I have to get my head right and hammer them out.  I always do. 

I've decided my inner(petulant) child is stubbornly avoiding all things yard, outside weed picking while walking the pug.  I know I have to put Preen down and will.

My Inner Child is facked off with being cornered into social interactions on everyone else's terms.  Obviously, I'm done with that. The trail is closed.  I don't have to revisit it if I choose not to.

So far I enjoy talking to retired nurse neighbor regularly and no one else.  I don't care what everyone thinks about it.  Honestly, I'm wrestless.....traveling appeals to me right now.

I'm ready to open new chapters and step into them fearlessly.  Not playing dead any more, huh, Tupp?  Thunder just boomed and boomed on that note. 

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Yep, one sweet level, nice layout/flow. Open plan LR, kitchen (mostly), back big room. I'd renovate the tub into a good walk-in shower one day, when/if $ permits.

The house isn't totally handicap-accessible (perish the thought) but is very well suited for aging in place as long as one's not in a wheelchair.

I'm dug in indefinitely.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

I'm paying attention to my body.  It feels like mine.  It's pretty sturdy right now.  I catch the little things before the get larger.

My left shoulder started popping and I losing power.  I wish the girls could do adjustments I've learned to do for them.  The touch for life stuff is what my body says it wants right now.  Not difficult.  Will try to talk DD19 through it once I get time.

I drive through the mountains in a big storm yesterday.  Easier now I have more support for unhappy adrenals.  Both DD and I had less than tip top appointments with NRP Friday, but all in all I feel better.  DDs thyroid way off, along with liver, bc she celebrated her 19th BD a little too hard.  We ate her magical homemade green tea and cocoa cake.  We both had beautiful purple lavender lemonades with vodka, but I'm a huge water drinker.  She doesn't have big ice free waters between drinks when imbibing.

That said, my brother phoned today to touch base.  This almost brought tears for me, bc I really feel connection with him.  It doesn't feel combative anymore!!!

That's hard to admit.....that it was a combative connection.  That I was always confused about it, but unable to put my finger on it.

Oh well.  Much improved.  Working together.  Clear line of communication feels like clear cool water to me.  YES.

I want to catch up with moss friend.  She texted.  Will go moss collecting soon for her yard.  Maybe mine, bc of back yard dead circles.  Just not sure why moss dying.  Rather fix problem than keep working to replace.  Oh well.  Not worried about it.  Just letting it go by.   I feel like everyone in Japan has the answers.  I'll get them one day.

My friend with health problems is sleeping in my bedroom.  I didn't have the emotional gas to drive her back to her car at the lake.  Just storming like crazy. 

I do want to gently ask about plans for her grown son with mild autism as she awaits biopsy results on breast mass doc said had 50/50 chance of being benign.

I'm internally doing cartwheels over it, at times.  Also, my mental health concerns me, should she get a bad dx.  She helped care for my mother, btw.  We've known each other since HS.  I extend my hand, to really help, and BAM....was it the kiss of death?

See?  That's an unconscious belief I have..... not t something I really think happens, but darnit....it's there and it would be really terrible to go through that for her....to watch her go through it, watch her children and dogs lose her.

DD20 and I got her tested for new glasses and ordered them.  It leaves me feeling like I'm hanging over an edge with no solid ground beneath me....I picture those glasses on her bedside table after she's gone.....should cancer take her.  I'm processing old grief, along with future grief I think.  Just letting it ride.  Seeing what it has to say.

I'll try not to be bossy, but her oldest son did an amazing job with autistic son when he took him for a few months.  Taught him about healthy food choices, got him working out and educated him about why good choices are good choices.  He was a completely different young man, explaining all he learned and he looked great.

I almost feel my friend gave up on life when her older kids turned on her and youngest moved out.  I believe we can wish for death and it finds us.  Maybe.

We're both Capricorns.  Both healing spirits, cept she takes in every stray.  I tell her to shift care to herself, but I might be asking too much.  She might feel it's her identity.  Caring for children and animals in need.  I understand what it's like to obsessively neeed to do things for others, even as it's harming self.

I will make peace if she's unwell.  I will help in ways I can w/o harming myself.  I'll get through it and hone my own worst case scenarios to mitigate harm to my kids if sonething happens to me.

Have to get LLCs in place.  I've noticed a big shift in what I don't worry about lately.  Some switch flipped.  There's more ease and flow. 

I heated up beautiful broccoli soup made with organic bone broth.  Not sure if friend eating healthy or not.  She was trying.

I can feel good about feeding her healthy yummy food while she's here.  I can help her process difficult things....navigate her fear....see a path she can......live with.  Travel with some peace. 

This brings up tough stuff for me.  My sister having health problems.  I want to go to her.  I'm here working on lake stuff.... I'm used to her pitching in on my crazy stuff.  I've not really been there for her outside some house organizing and talking her out if occasional trees.  She's not too keen on advice she doesn't agree with, but who is?

My brother had gallbladder removed.  Next organ in line is liver.....without changes in habits it's likely the next issue will be more detrimental and it's on my mind.

What will that look like?  How will we/I handle it?  How will our children weather losing my generation?

One compares themselves to parents and grandparents....how we navigated death and losing loved ones.  How we recover.

I'm at the edge of seeing that, I think. I'm not sure about nieces and nephews and my pd ex SIL complicates things so I can't think clearly about it.

I'll use the tools I learned to calm myself and get on with it.  T appointment at end if month much awaited.  I'll have plenty to work on by then.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Friend, sister, brother, Ds....SO much intense worry about everybody else, Lighter.

No wonder your shoulder is hurting. You're shouldering too much!

No childhood relationship obligates you to turn yourself inside-out raw for friend (previously it was gallbladder friend)...because if you don't maintain self-care plus reasonable detachment, it'll be you whose glasses are left on the nightstand.

You intensely imagine pain. Over and over. Anticipate and colorfully imagine future emotional agony.

I wave my wand to stop you doing this to yourself. Accepting illness, crises and losses as part of the ticket price to a human life.

(Your comment about wishing death on oneself unconsciously really hit home.)

You are brave. You care. You always want to fix and rescue. That's all kind and noble and good except when it takes over your imagination and helps you terrify yourself.

I get it (mirror). Busted...

Kind and calm, kind and calm....

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

I'm a bit in shock, really.  I guess I always step into next phases....
Well.  I get side swiped by them,  like a cold splash of water in the face.

I was ready to enjoy THIS phase a bit longer, honestly. 

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Well then a taste of your own strong medicine would be, new choices?

You don't have to passively accept that a phase is over.
YOU get to set boundaries around it. Say No as much as Yes.

Yes?

hugs
Hops

PS Just realized a big difference. If someone I was close to came down with cancer, I would love and care and find out how to HELP create a support system if they didn't have one. But they'd never wind up sleeping in my bed or staying in my house, because I don't have that battery life. I would not allow myself to view myself as the Only Amazon who could help them through their crisis. I think that's sometimes what you do, like a warrior. (I'm the anti-warrior.) You literally leap into the gap. Fighting illnesses and impending death and loss. It's a battle. For me, it's acceptance of human mortality. I've gotten nearly cozy with it (which also is a warning about giving up, which I took from your other post).

A husband or child? Of course, but even then, I'd start with facing my limits, not exhaust myself until I ran smack into them. I'm more selfish with age. I've scared myself into a stroke by trying too hard to be heard or to understand or to create space enough where I could breathe. The same would go with caregiving, now.

That's my worry for you. We're opposite in sacrificiality and somewhere in between us is a healthy balance. Take care of YOUR life first, okay? (Preaching to self....)

[lighter]

Fortunately, I'm in the best headspace of my life.

Whatever comes, I'll navigate it as best I can.  Modeling for adult children really helps me home in on good/better/best choices w/o too much faffing about, ime.

Internalizing acceptance, curiosity and self compassion.....action then putting the story in the shelf is balm and solution for me.

Then there's always the grief if goodbyes to phases.  I've always been keenly aware if them, before, during and after the process.  It gets easier.

I will say, my impulse to help others decreases as I consistently spend more energy on self care.

I notice, more and more....I don't repeat information or unsolicited advice as often, if at all.  The urge is dissipating.  Sometimes I consider saying nothing when directly asked for advice, bc I've already said it.  Sometimes people can't hear, even when asking.  I get that.  I pare down what I say, release expectation and go back to myself and my business.  Breath. 

My friend is having all these tests and doc appts bc I told her to get all the info she could before seeing the nutrition response practitioner.

Maybe this will save her life? 

In any case, I try to take my own medicine,bad you say.  I try to keep my head where my feet are.

Sometimes I have to fill fledge grieve something (into dog food) then move past it.

It'll be ok.  I believe that.

Lighter